EPTIf you have more ideas, please share them
[A] Starbow - Page 342
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
If you have more ideas, please share them | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On July 26 2013 07:22 Sumadin wrote: Well changing the supply won't change the overall mechanics of how the unit work, only how strong the overall army of X constant supply is. So if mech doesn't have much reason to do an attack at 120 supply with say 12 tanks then they will still not want to do it either at 120 supply with now just 8 tanks or at the new 12 tank supply timing which would be at 132 supply. Plus the latter one would still be slightly later due to needing more supply depots. What i am saying is, that we should look at the reasons why mech doesn't want to attack, behaps even ignoring the obvious answer of "turtling is more rewarding". I think the simple answer is that mech can't retreat.Anything that a mech player moves out on the field is written off as a loss already or it is a victory attempt. Protoss got rift to evacuate quickly while zerg doesn't have any units that are too devastating to lose. Now i am not saying we should give recall to terran but they might need something similar. Normal dropships won't cut it i am afraid. I do have some ideas on the matter but it would be a rather long post so i would like to know what you think first. Mech didn't have an incentive to attack at 20-30 minute mark cus they weren't maxed. If they are maxed now they will attack. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
First of all. 3 reasons why normal dropships just doesn't cut it. Supply: Starbow dropships in question unlike medivacs have no battle use going for them. Not that a mech player would care, but it does mean that any value they may add is only added through the effect of whatever damage unit dropped cause. You don't want that many of them basicly. A dropship that isn't active might aswell have been a tank that could provide more defense to an expansion or a Vulture laying mines. Room: Mech is heavy, mech is bulky. Mech units takes alot of room. You can currently only fill 4 supply of tanks inside a dropship. Not alot all things considered. Point 1 should show why any terran player will only want to get so many dropships, which means that even if you were using dropships to evacuate some of the tanks, it would still be a costly affair and if you made too many, it would always leave the thought if it was neccersary to evacuate had all the dropships been tanks instead. Risk: Dropships are fragile by nature. They have to be like that, drops pose a huge treat to the enemy afterall. This however also means that it can be huge risk to use them for evacuation. A dropship filled with 2 siege tanks is the most expensive 150 HP you could ever lose. Infact without afterburners it would be probably be madness to even think about using them for that. Now in HOTS afterburners does add some legitimity to the strat but it is certainly no recall. So with these problems in minds are there any solution? Well the campaign offers a pretty decent attempt i think. Scale it up!! Add something with: Less supply wasted More room. Less Risk. Introducing the Hercules. Tactical Terran Mega Transporter. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/4/45/Hercules_Unit.png) In its core the Hercules is just a dropship that is much bigger. In the campaign it came with amazingly 30 slots for 6 supply. That is 25% more slots per supply than the dropship. With 500 health and 3 default armor it's endurance is also significantly higher. And with a movement speed of 2.75 it moved faster than the medivac, through it would need to be faster to match starbow dropships. Finally if it was shot down below land, then units inside would just land safely in droppods taking only slight damage. Not sure if we would need the latter through. Now it is not the intention that the Hercules takes over the role of the dropship, once it arrives. Rather it is suposed to cover some different roles mostly related to jobs on the field. Its full intention is to allow terrans to invest in the retreat and think beyond the first wave of mech. Because of this i think it would be good if its dropping worked slightly different than other dropships. Instead of doing hot pickup and drops, the hercules would actually have to land before picking up cargo or passengers(I know, landing, so old school). This landing however would require alot of free room, so it is not something you would be able to consistantly do inside your opponents main. Conviniantly through, the Hercules does come with animations for landing so we won't have to worry about that. And that is really it. From here we can think of other alterations really. I was thinking about something like "Return jump" that fixates on the location of a signal beacon inside a friendly command center, and then after a 2 sec cast time does a long-distance warp jump to it. Allowing for some quick escape when things go south. So yea that is my idea. I think it might be something that could allow mech to be more on the offensive and be more active vs a protoss that just expands everywhere, rather than just turtle to 200 and do a single push and hope it works. Thoughts? | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
My thought was, to split the dropship into two units: the smaller, stealthy Covert Ops, which would benefit from the same Cloaking Field research as the Wraith or the Banshee, and the larger Hercules. It would certainly be interesting to try it out at least. | ||
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Imperator x8x
United States69 Posts
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On July 26 2013 13:21 SolidSMD wrote: Doomdrops anyone? And anyway, mech is about the strongest composition in a straight up fight, I don't see why they should get a cop out if they mess up. It is not really a cop out. Look at rift and you can talk about that. This requires fusion core so it is initially quite the investment. And doomdrops? Well that was kinda why i suggested a landing mechanic rather than normal dropping. But even then it is not THAT much stronger than getting 4 dropships. It costs less supply and is much harder to pick off. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
Besides, technically you shouldn't be caught out of position with mech, as you can scan the area ahead with your orbitals. I don't see any reason this unit should be in the game. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
Terrans got the scan, free unpreventable scouting that can be placed everywhere for a limited amount of time. How many Orbitals they have decides how many are avaliable. Protoss got the Observer, invisible scouts that can scout an area, in theory forever. When it comes to retreating, it doesn't just come down to when you are accidently caught out of position. It also comes down to the actions that you can take, even through you know you will be out of position. For example moving out to snipe a nexus and then getting back. It is easier to do those very aggresive actions if you know you have a decent chance get away with most of the money invested in the attack. This can in theory be done with dropships too, but it seems just way too risky right now, as they are almost more likely to be picked off than the tanks. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
Why do you want to take away the beauty of mech (being tactical army movement) and mobilize mech? If you 'snipe' a nexus and lose your army afterwards then you didn't play mech correctly anyway as you don't play it as a ball. cover your own units with more tanks and mines, naturally making you able to retreat if you want to if you anticipated the strength of the enemies army correctly before attacking. You attack when you smell weakness, not when you want to snipe a nexus. You can use small drops to hurt the economy of the protoss. I see this unit you want to add as a cop out for bad play. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
When it comes to retreating, it doesn't just come down to when you are accidently caught out of position. It also comes down to the actions that you can take, even through you know you will be out of position. For example moving out to snipe a nexus and then getting back. It is easier to do those very aggresive actions if you know you have a decent chance get away with most of the money invested in the attack. This - Allowing players to have "scapegoats" is probably the easiest way of encouraging action and splitting up the deathball. If you can't retreat, you can only do "commited timing attacks". With tanks in your composition, your typically not rewarded for moving out before your maxed, which I guess some times can be a bit boring (im thinking both mech and bio-mech here). Instead of warp drive, I would like to see some other kind of ability. Maybe give it a small AOE slow ability so it also has a bit of utility in it self (as a "weak" spellcasters). So when you want to retreat, you cast the AOE slow on your opponents army which allows you to retreat if you targetted well. This will add a bit of uncertainty and thus it won't always be a 100% safe scapegoat, but a scapegoat which depends on the terran players unit control. I think this idea has a lot of potential. | ||
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Imperator x8x
United States69 Posts
On July 27 2013 00:35 Hider wrote: This - allowing players to have "scapegoats" is probably the easiest way of encouraging action and splitting up the deathball. When you can't retreat, you can only do "commited timing attacks", and when there are tanks involved, typically your not rewarded for moving out before your maxed, which I guess some times can be a bit boring (im thinking both mech and bio-mech here). Instead of warp drive, I would like to see some other kind of ability. Maybe give it a small AOE slow ability so it also has a bit of utility in it self (as a "weak" spellcasters). So when you want to retreat, you cast the AOE slow on your opponents army which allows you to retreat if you targetted well. This will add a bit of uncertainty and thus it won't always be a 100% scapegoat, but a scapegoat which depends on the terran players unit control. I think this idea has a lot of potential. I approve of this idea. All in favor of Hercules with slowing spell? Aye. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On July 27 2013 00:45 Imperator x8x wrote: I approve of this idea. All in favor of Hercules with slowing spell? Aye. I disagree, I don't think we need to add the complication of making it a spellcaster. I think giving it the Afterburners ability would serve the same function without having weird unintended consequences like players making extra Hercules in the late game to offensively blanket slow the opponents army. Keep slowing effects where they belong, on dedicated support casters like the Viper. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On July 27 2013 01:05 JohnnyZerg wrote: I do not understand all this contempt for the scout. Simply people seem to not understand this unit. Scout isn't a unit for harass, his task is to counter air units armored, due to its high bonus against them. With the ability "gravitonic beam" of the corsair, scout can also affect ground units. Tanks, reavers and lurkers are their favorite victim. So it is good if scout has a movement speed of medium / high. I also suggested to add a button to scout, to disable / enable the anti ground weapon, so as to facilitate use with corsairs. Phase missile has nothing to do with scouts. Remove it and move it to another unit would be a step forward. Give at scout an ability worthy of its name: copy and paste sc2 "revelation" of the http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Oracle, but affected units do not get vision, while the units cloak / burrow are detected (not vision). Scout is more useful than you might think. The ground attack has to be weak. It used to have revelation... noone used it. And protoss were having too much airial scouting... so it got scrapped. The biggest problem with that role is that there really isn't any armored air units flying around... now that doesn't speak much about the flaw of the Scout and more about how most of the other races late game flying unit sucks too much to be of use. Most of the lesser flying units have medium armor these days, it is typhically the big capital ships that got armored tag. And noone makes those. With phase missile it is also good vs energy units like SVs and Vibers. Now if the Hercules was implented then the scout would truly start to shine. Shooting down a Hercules is not meant to be easy but the Scout should have the tools for the jobs, and it could end up being very rewarding. Also if the Hercules is implented with a special energy based escape ability, be it warp drive or Hider suggestion "Decoy flares", then the scout would be the unit of choice to disable that. The problem with the scout is not its lack of role... it is the problem that the armored flying units sucks too much in general (looking at you guardians). | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
If Terran drop capability is too weak/bad atm, there are many other ways to improve it. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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