This isn't going to turn into another LoL vs (all other games apparently) thread. You can speak your mind about the selection of games but keep it civil.
On June 29 2011 03:14 Shikyo wrote: It's the argument of casual and popular vs less popular and hardcore.
sc2 is easier but its still hardcore enough to be a good competitive game and replacement for bw, somebody said (think it was sheth) that it would take a full year of hard working to become good enough to compete on the current top level for somebody who just started playing (and players are still improving) think that's reasonable learning curve, LoL might be fun game to play with friends while drinking beer but as a esports i dont see how its challenging enough to make me pumped, besides it kind blows from a spectator point of view (thats debatable but for me its as exciting as WoW...). The argument of mass viewers doesnt mean for me much, plenty of people listen to justin bieber does it make him a good singer?
"Hardcore enough"? So BW is too hardcore, but LoL isn't hardcore enough? That's the most subjective bullshit I've ever heard.
On June 28 2011 21:53 jelle wrote: I Gotta say, I'm actually surprised over how many people still can't let go of games like Quake.. Yes, Quake is one of the most awesome games of all time, and has brought us some very epic matches through time.. But, its a thing of the past..
My personal opinion is, that LoL brings a strategic level, which we normally don't see in strategic games; Teamwork.. This is also what makes LoL a cool game to watch imo; How 1 teams preparation and constant training, make them play so well with eachother, that they can communicate almost purely by pinging a minimap, and know what eachother means. The ability to know exactly how much you or your team can take, and still come out victorious in the end, is a thing of beauty.
So.. Before you ditch LoL completely, try watching some of the finals from Dreamhack, or atleast go into it with an open mind.. I've followed the SC2 community since release, and I watch pretty much every event possible.. Every MLG, almost every GSL, NASL, IPL, and I would state that a game like LoL brings just as much entertaining as SC2 does. You can always expect top play when 2 top teams play against eachother.. Sure, you can do some gimmicky moves, which might give you small advantages, but it's just not possible to "cheese", or in anyway deceive your way to victory. You can only win this game, by playing it very solid, and knowing what to do at the exact right time.
At the same time, I think it's awesome to see 1 player just playing straight up better than others, hence why i watch starcraft, but when you watch 2 teams face off, and 1 team is just out playing the other team, it's 5 times as awesome to see. The moves, the spells, the coordination, the perfection.. It truly is a thing of beauty.
So my fellow liquidians, I urge you to give LoL a chance. It really can be quite entertaining, and I definetly feel that this genre of game is and will be a viable type of eSport game. It's not gonna mess with SC2 at all, as the genres are totally different, and as long as SC2 isn't doing 5v5, I don't see how there would even be any kind of link between the games. it's a team game, which SC2 isn't.
I know a lot of people won't cut this game any slack, but if this post made just 1 person go watch a LoL final with an open mind, well damn it, then it's all been worth it
Best regards,
Jelle
What is so exciting about LoL for you? It doesn't happen anything in the first 20min as usual...?
Really nice to see that they got CS1.6 at least!_! And still huge price pool!
On June 29 2011 06:35 ZergMaestro wrote: I just wish quake was replaced by a another good FPS, but there hasn't been a good competitive FPS since 1.6 .
RTWC was the closest thing but it still didn't breakout onto a pro tour, and that was back in 04-05
Who knows maybe a heavily modified TF2 might do it.
Yeah I personally think that the FPS scene really suffers from Q4 and Counter-Strike: Source (and other games like Painkiller, UT2k3/4) not breaking through... there's just so little incentive to try and become pro in QL and CS now, getting to the top is pretty much impossible right now. Here's to hoping a new game will come up soon, would be really sad if the FPS scene got reduced to "console style" (can't find a better way to put it) shooters like CoD and Halo.
On June 29 2011 06:35 ZergMaestro wrote: I just wish quake was replaced by a another good FPS, but there hasn't been a good competitive FPS since 1.6 .
RTWC was the closest thing but it still didn't breakout onto a pro tour, and that was back in 04-05
Who knows maybe a heavily modified TF2 might do it.
Yeah I personally think that the FPS scene really suffers from Q4 and Counter-Strike: Source (and other games like Painkiller, UT2k3/4) not breaking through... there's just so little incentive to try and become pro in QL and CS now, getting to the top is pretty much impossible right now. Here's to hoping a new game will come up soon, would be really sad if the FPS scene got reduced to "console style" (can't find a better way to put it) shooters like CoD and Halo.
Really looking forward for BF3 now that DICE have said that we could make mods for BF3 it gonna be really awesome I hope, but it need to be 5v5 imo, can't go with 8/16 for LANs, just to many.
the fact is that LoL requires way less skill than DotA/HoN. advanced mechanics like Creep equilibrum and managing ur item's actives and replays are nonexistent. try putting a link to a sc2 stream in bnet2 and you'll see. It'll die as an e-sport when Dota 2 comes out and S2 decides to be a better company
On June 29 2011 06:35 ZergMaestro wrote: I just wish quake was replaced by a another good FPS, but there hasn't been a good competitive FPS since 1.6 .
RTWC was the closest thing but it still didn't breakout onto a pro tour, and that was back in 04-05
Who knows maybe a heavily modified TF2 might do it.
Yeah I personally think that the FPS scene really suffers from Q4 and Counter-Strike: Source (and other games like Painkiller, UT2k3/4) not breaking through... there's just so little incentive to try and become pro in QL and CS now, getting to the top is pretty much impossible right now. Here's to hoping a new game will come up soon, would be really sad if the FPS scene got reduced to "console style" (can't find a better way to put it) shooters like CoD and Halo.
The problem is games are being designed for consoles. You won't find a fps game like Quake or 1.6 being made today. The only hope I have is NS2 but that's not even mainstream. I think we are just going to have to accept the fact that competitive FPS as we know it is just going to become a relic and games like Halo/CoD are going to be the new "competitive FPS". I know it's saddening. I think I'm going to go cry now just for writing this.
On June 29 2011 06:35 ZergMaestro wrote: I just wish quake was replaced by a another good FPS, but there hasn't been a good competitive FPS since 1.6 .
RTWC was the closest thing but it still didn't breakout onto a pro tour, and that was back in 04-05
Who knows maybe a heavily modified TF2 might do it.
Yeah I personally think that the FPS scene really suffers from Q4 and Counter-Strike: Source (and other games like Painkiller, UT2k3/4) not breaking through... there's just so little incentive to try and become pro in QL and CS now, getting to the top is pretty much impossible right now. Here's to hoping a new game will come up soon, would be really sad if the FPS scene got reduced to "console style" (can't find a better way to put it) shooters like CoD and Halo.
The problem is games are being designed for consoles. You won't find a fps game like Quake or 1.6 being made today. The only hope I have is NS2 but that's not even mainstream. I think we are just going to have to accept the fact that competitive FPS as we know it is just going to become a relic and games like Halo/CoD are going to be the new "competitive FPS". I know it's saddening. I think I'm going to go cry now just for writing this.
Yeah you're most likely right... all big FPS now are PC/XBOX/PS3 cross-releases, and it seems like that's also how it's gonna work in the future. My hope right now is that Valve somehow comes up with a real successor to CS, there were some hints, but then again I don't think it's very likely, seeing how shabby they treat CS1.6 right now (which is a shame, because CS1.6 was the killer app that got the whole Steam network started after all -.-), and another hope would be ID making a sequel to Q3A... which will happen, but probably not until some years from now, and when it does im pretty sure it will be another console/pc hybrid.
In the end it's all a part of a change in gaming culture, back when CS and Quake were new games, having a PC was pretty much the only way to play online shooters, but XBOX live and the like broke that monopoly eventually. Like I said in a post before gaming companies will try to cater to the masses, and if XBOX/PlayStation is where the masses are... well then that's how it's gonna be.
Sad to see QL go - I started following it during IEM Cologne and really enjoyed how thrilling yet tactical it was.
Nothing much against LoL being in, but I hope they manage to get some better casters - it's really hard to get into the action without having a good understanding of the game (only played a few myself). Or maybe I just don't "get" MOBA games.
About LoL and jukes... LoL definitely has potential, hopefully the top scene will increase in skill (atm biggest problem in my opinion is that the "top scene" isnt that good). No one is even near reaching the "skill-cap" of the game. Anyone of you who's like "hey thats easy shit rofl" is sadly mistaken. LoL is really more comparable to football than lots of other "esports". It's about picks, positionning, knowledge of what you / others can do. And a bit of quake because you HAVE to know the timing on your and your opponents blue/red buff, dragon and baron spawn, and everybody's ultimates. (And various "jungle timings" in the beginning, for ganks and counterjungling). I am a HUGE fan of quake and have been watching competitive quake III since its beginning and no words can describe my sadness at it being removed from every event. However, I happen to love MOBAs too, (played tons of DotA allstars in dotapickup). LoL has big problems, it's obvious and nobody is denying that. But HoN has too, and same goes for DotA (Nostalgia is a lying bitch).
But everybody should give LoL a chance. If you know what's going on it's actually very enjoyable to watch (and gets more enjoyable when you get to know the players, think about it, would you enjoy watching esports that much if everybody was unknown to you ?) and the viewer numbers prove it.
More to the point, if I may say so, your bitching isn't going to change anything except make you look stupidly elitist. I'm also fairly sure most of the people crying about the game either didn't play it or played it a little / casually and don't understand most of what is involved in "competitive" play.
TL;DR : No quake = sad panda ; LoL ain't that bad.
On June 29 2011 03:25 TheYango wrote: LoLbase only track games played by players who use their client. Which is a pretty small fraction of their total player base.
That's not true.
Lol@ those comments that say that Dota/HoN requires more skill than LoL. It's all the same. None of them are skillshot games like BLC. And personally I doubt that Dota 2 will ever have a larger player base than LoL does.
On June 29 2011 03:25 TheYango wrote: LoLbase only track games played by players who use their client. Which is a pretty small fraction of their total player base.
So many hypocrites. People want esports to succeed but when a game enters the scene that doesn't match up 1 for 1 with their expectations they start screaming bloody murder and decide "they're done feeding money into esports." That's like boycotting ESPN because they decided to start broadcasting/funding hocky or soccer instead of just basketball and football.
Real retarded imo.
Unless you've played all the games listed at a high level you have no right to say X game requires "no skill" or whatnot. Have an open mind and just try the damn thing. When I say try, I don't mean play 2-3 games, watch 1 and immediately QQ and decide it's not worth it.
About LoL and jukes... LoL definitely has potential, hopefully the top scene will increase in skill (atm biggest problem in my opinion is that the "top scene" isnt that good). No one is even near reaching the "skill-cap" of the game. Anyone of you who's like "hey thats easy shit rofl" is sadly mistaken. LoL is really more comparable to football than lots of other "esports". It's about picks, positionning, knowledge of what you / others can do. And a bit of quake because you HAVE to know the timing on your and your opponents blue/red buff, dragon and baron spawn, and everybody's ultimates. (And various "jungle timings" in the beginning, for ganks and counterjungling). I am a HUGE fan of quake and have been watching competitive quake III since its beginning and no words can describe my sadness at it being removed from every event. However, I happen to love MOBAs too, (played tons of DotA allstars in dotapickup). LoL has big problems, it's obvious and nobody is denying that. But HoN has too, and same goes for DotA (Nostalgia is a lying bitch).
But everybody should give LoL a chance. If you know what's going on it's actually very enjoyable to watch (and gets more enjoyable when you get to know the players, think about it, would you enjoy watching esports that much if everybody was unknown to you ?) and the viewer numbers prove it.
More to the point, if I may say so, your bitching isn't going to change anything except make you look stupidly elitist. I'm also fairly sure most of the people crying about the game either didn't play it or played it a little / casually and don't understand most of what is involved in "competitive" play.
TL;DR : No quake = sad panda ; LoL ain't that bad.
Look at those broken no mana mechanics. Pretty sick man.
even though i play quite a bit lol (not any good ranked 1500 or so), and have played dota before for years, great games. i think its a TERRIBLE esport, for the sole reason that observing it is super fucking boring for the most part. when teams have 10 minte long standoffs at a turret or just farm 15 long because the whole map is warded and no ganks are possible i have to puke. also lol is harder to learn to get started. the basics of sc2 are easy so you could say lol is hard to start but relatively easy to reach a high level. while sc2 is the opposite. RIP quake, you were an awesome game but you have to leave for a game that has a big casual playerbase
Shouldn't the players from the last IEM be paid before you announce a new one? Moonglade is still waiting for his prize money...
edit: I wouldnt usually post this information, but after trying to do it privately, there has be little/no response that would suffice to a reasoning behind the prize money delay.
On June 29 2011 14:51 isleyofthenorth wrote: even though i play quite a bit lol (not any good ranked 1500 or so), and have played dota before for years, great games. i think its a TERRIBLE esport, for the sole reason that observing it is super fucking boring for the most part. when teams have 10 minte long standoffs at a turret or just farm 15 long because the whole map is warded and no ganks are possible i have to puke. also lol is harder to learn to get started. the basics of sc2 are easy so you could say lol is hard to start but relatively easy to reach a high level. while sc2 is the opposite. RIP quake, you were an awesome game but you have to leave for a game that has a big casual playerbase
From what you said there I think you are either a liar about playing LoL, or are so bias its affecting your brain -_-... LoL is easy to learn mechanically, and can be played pretty casually which is why a lot people like it, but to master it at a high level is still difficult because of the teamwork aspect.
I watched both GSL and Dreamhack LoL right afterwards, and the observing was actually pretty kick ass and fun to watch, it definitely has potential. Its not like SC2 doesn't have tons of boring downtime in games where the players aren't doing anything because of positioning. To be perfectly honest with you there was more action going on in LoL because of 5 players and teamwork...
After watching the DH LoL tourney, I am more than willing to give it a chance, because the games in that tourney were soooo freking tight. Haven't had that much fun from simply watching a game in a long time... The casters had a hard time actually keeping track of everything that was happening.
Personally I won't miss Quake one bit. It had its place in gaming at one point, but lets face the reality: Quake hasn't been relevant in years, and watching the streams for it was plain boring. Sure I can appreciate the skills, but it was still uninteresting to watch.
Esports in an industry, IEM is a business. They will go with whatever they perceive will garner more viewer and push them forward.
I don't know the numbers for Quake live streams, but for DH LoL stream, live there were always 100k+ viewers(Hit over 200k at some point during the finals), and while they were doing replays of the action there were always 30k+ viewers, on solomid.net there are several streams that always have 2-4k viewers. So you can't really argue with the numbers.
EPT
