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Canada11384 Posts
On December 28 2013 08:39 Carefree wrote:
Curious of the use of DA nowadays can be attributed to the common use of feedback in SC2.
I don't think so. If I remember correctly, just before SC2 came out, Zerg's mutalisk micro had gotten to a point in PvZ where it was really hard for Protoss to hang out into their high templar if they ever lost air control. And after getting high templar after templar sniped, the zerg's would just maul the Protoss with a massive army because Protoss didn't have AoE. There seemed to be quite a few shifts in metagame including DA usage with maelstroms to trap (or Bisu's super fast early zlot variant) and then kespa switched and we didn't see too much. But it seems to me that the DA use would be traced back to that time period more so.
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id recoomend the stove if you see not enough scouts in your games
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On December 28 2013 08:39 Carefree wrote:
Curious of the use of DA nowadays can be attributed to the common use of feedback in SC2.
Ammm no... Not at all, it doesn't work that way... By that logic scout/tank is nearly unbeatable in bgh so the protoss should be rushing for MC while massing scouts in PvT to possess a SCV and make a bunch of tanks...
If something is bad it's bad. Another game using a cheap unimaginative version of the samr spell won't make it more popular.
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On December 28 2013 10:01 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2013 08:39 Carefree wrote:
Curious of the use of DA nowadays can be attributed to the common use of feedback in SC2. Ammm no... Not at all, it doesn't work that way... By that logic scout/tank is nearly unbeatable in bgh so the protoss should be rushing for MC while massing scouts in PvT to possess a SCV and make a bunch of tanks... If something is bad it's bad. Another game using a cheap unimaginative version of the samr spell won't make it more popular.
that'd be awesome in bgh
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On December 28 2013 10:27 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2013 10:01 thezanursic wrote:On December 28 2013 08:39 Carefree wrote:
Curious of the use of DA nowadays can be attributed to the common use of feedback in SC2. Ammm no... Not at all, it doesn't work that way... By that logic scout/tank is nearly unbeatable in bgh so the protoss should be rushing for MC while massing scouts in PvT to possess a SCV and make a bunch of tanks... If something is bad it's bad. Another game using a cheap unimaginative version of the samr spell won't make it more popular. that'd be awesome in bgh
And it is if you think about it... As long as you avoid stasis and play it smart when it comes to splah. Siege tanks should keep everything away while scout rape air. Even mass goliath doesn't beat mass scout because scouts do more dmg per area in mass + there are siege tanks.
Still doesn't mean it's smart rushing scout/tank in 1v1 or 2v2
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On December 28 2013 04:29 thezanursic wrote:
If you don't use arbiters you must be pretty bad...
Yup. Because the entire litmus test of whether a player is good or not is whether they use Arbiters.
That alone decides if you're gosu or not. 
Queens are pretty good in ZvT imho
DA is pretty good in PvZ
Ghosts are occasionally used in TvP lategame vs carriers
Valks are pretty good in certain situations in TvZ and TvT
And lastly the only legit use of scouts I've seen was ForGG vs Kal(?) on Colloseum where Kal went nex first into a really fast 2 base carriers vs a 3 fact (?) so he killed a couple of tqnks + forced turrets, goliaths, he ended breaking out and winning the game. In that specific game not making scouts would probably be the wrong move.
List:
1. Infested Terran
2. Scout
3. Ghost
4. Valk
5. DA
6. Queen
Thank you. That's more what I was going for.
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On December 28 2013 04:10 traceurling wrote:Maybe you should start building detection...might help you see DTs
FTW. 
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On December 28 2013 10:27 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2013 10:01 thezanursic wrote:On December 28 2013 08:39 Carefree wrote:
Curious of the use of DA nowadays can be attributed to the common use of feedback in SC2. Ammm no... Not at all, it doesn't work that way... By that logic scout/tank is nearly unbeatable in bgh so the protoss should be rushing for MC while massing scouts in PvT to possess a SCV and make a bunch of tanks... If something is bad it's bad. Another game using a cheap unimaginative version of the samr spell won't make it more popular. that'd be awesome in bgh
Done that. Didn't work. Might have been because both my allies unallied me at the same time, and annihilated most of my army before I could unally them though.
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On December 28 2013 12:56 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2013 04:29 thezanursic wrote:
If you don't use arbiters you must be pretty bad... Yup. Because the entire litmus test of whether a player is good or not is whether they use Arbiters. That alone decides if you're gosu or not.
I don't think that it necessarly means that you're "bad", but I don't think that there's been a single legitimately competative protoss player in the last 10 years who hasn't made arbiters in mid/lategame at least occassionaly.
Using storms is really hard to do once the terran reaches max and using storms also means more diminishing effects for other aspects of your play - You can stasis before you engage whereas storming means either ineffectually leaving your HTs to trail your army at a snail's pace or babysitting a shuttle and in turn your army management suffering because of it (Of course if you are a good play it's ideal to use both arbiters (in slightly lower numbers to compensate for the raw army supply lost) and storm)
And opening a slightly shorter midgame focused paragraph, I'd just like to say that excluding arbiter based builds most definitely makes you a more predictable player and more importantly a less flexible player. All midgame PvT games tend to diverge to either a deathball with arbiters and occassionally storm or carriers with goon HT support, and for a good reason, it works.
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On December 28 2013 14:53 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2013 12:56 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 28 2013 04:29 thezanursic wrote:
If you don't use arbiters you must be pretty bad... Yup. Because the entire litmus test of whether a player is good or not is whether they use Arbiters. That alone decides if you're gosu or not. + Show Spoiler +
I don't think that it necessarly means that you're "bad", but I don't think that there's been a single legitimately competative protoss player in the last 10 years who hasn't made arbiters in mid/lategame at least occassionaly.
Using storms is really hard to do once the terran reaches max and using storms also means more diminishing effects for other aspects of your play - You can stasis before you engage whereas storming means either ineffectually leaving your HTs to trail your army at a snail's pace or babysitting a shuttle and in turn your army management suffering because of it (Of course if you are a good play it's ideal to use both arbiters (in slightly lower numbers to compensate for the raw army supply lost) and storm)
And opening a slightly shorter midgame focused paragraph, I'd just like to say that excluding arbiter based builds most definitely makes you a more predictable player and more importantly a less flexible player. All midgame PvT games tend to diverge to either a deathball with arbiters and occassionally storm or carriers with goon HT support, and for a good reason, it works.
TLDR:
Arbiters are a good skill toi have
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On December 28 2013 15:14 thezanursic wrote:
TLDR:
Arbiters are a good skill to have
I'm not disagreeing there. I posted the list of units I did and asked the question I did in order to have my past practices challenged and critiqued. I did so with an open mind, and am now curious to start using arbiters more.
What I was pushing back against was the simplistic notion that not using arbiters automatically makes you a 'bad' player. Seeing that you sort of disowned your earlier remark there, seems like we're in agreement.
Maybe it's more accurate to say that you can be a good player without arbiters, but if you use 'em and use 'em well, you'll be a better player for it.
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i never make arbiters because i am not a cheap dirty scumbag protoss user )))
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Btw, is the valk 'sprite bug' still in effect?
Been away from BW for a long time, but IIRC, if you had more than 4 or so valks in an engagement, not all of their missiles would work because of some inherent limit or bug in the game.
Perhaps that's part of why valks never became that popular a unit? Dunno.
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On December 28 2013 01:19 [[Starlight]] wrote:
I'm coming back to BW after being away for several years. Just curious as to the 'state of the game' in 2013 (almost 2014).
For myself, IIRC, the units I never seemed to find myself making were:
1. Queens
2. Dark Archons
3. Infested Terrans
4. Valks
5. Ghosts (don't know why, they can be pretty good)
6. Arbiters
7. Scouts (do make these occasionally, just not often/not in big numbers)
Have things changed much since then, and some of these units are actually very popular now? If so, how are they usually employed?
1. Queens were used sometimes, maybe not consistently but I remeber some ensnare + plague tactics by Jaedong himself.
Also in mech ZvT the meta evolved in a way that mass queen+broodling was very possible.
2. Not used much. Possibly most useful in PvP to feedback templars, but the meta never evolved to that level.
Also if someone would play mass air ZvP then we would most likely see some DA.
3. Not useful in ZvT, but there was this map with neutral CC which made IT used against toss... and it was imba.
4. Useful in mech openings vs zerg. Also useful lategame TvT to counter mass wraith play.
5. Not useful much, because very hard to micro(without smartcasting) and in TvP gas is very precious.
6. Used a lot, almost in every PvT game. Use in other matchups is somewhat questionable.
7. Not very useful, too costly, easy to counter, hard to get speed upgrade.
Since dragoons and corsairs hard counter scouts and same goes for turrets/goliaths the only matchup you can use them in higher numbers is PvZ. But the risk is that zerg will outmacro you hard.. which happends almost always.
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D-Web Sairs
Except nobody uses D-web but I do. It's my ace in the hole. They adapt to my fleet beacon with anti carrier turrets and goliaths when they see it but they see me rollin in with a million dragoons and corsairs. can't stop it
D+ strategy.
Or they try to kill me before I get going. I think I die then
I also had a B- player mass ghosts vs me. I was thoroughly traumatized
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On December 28 2013 19:08 Kenpachi wrote:
Nobody uses D-web but I do. It's my ace in the hole. They adapt to my fleet beacon with anti carrier turrets and goliaths when they see it but they see me rollin in with a million dragoons and corsairs. can't stop it
D+ strategy.
Or they try to kill me before I get going. I think I die then
I always thought D-web should've been 150 mana (so that even with the energy upgrade, you can't get two webs per corsair).
REALLY good spell/special ability, almost too good.
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The only unit that doesn't have tried and true utility on that list is the ghost.
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On December 28 2013 08:50 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2013 08:39 Carefree wrote:
Curious of the use of DA nowadays can be attributed to the common use of feedback in SC2. I don't think so. If I remember correctly, just before SC2 came out, Zerg's mutalisk micro had gotten to a point in PvZ where it was really hard for Protoss to hang out into their high templar if they ever lost air control. And after getting high templar after templar sniped, the zerg's would just maul the Protoss with a massive army because Protoss didn't have AoE. There seemed to be quite a few shifts in metagame including DA usage with maelstroms to trap (or Bisu's super fast early zlot variant) and then kespa switched and we didn't see too much. But it seems to me that the DA use would be traced back to that time period more so.
I think it was the time when Destination was really popular.
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On December 28 2013 15:42 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2013 15:14 thezanursic wrote:
TLDR:
Arbiters are a good skill to have I'm not disagreeing there. I posted the list of units I did and asked the question I did in order to have my past practices challenged and critiqued. I did so with an open mind, and am now curious to start using arbiters more. What I was pushing back against was the simplistic notion that not using arbiters automatically makes you a 'bad' player. Seeing that you sort of disowned your earlier remark there, seems like we're in agreement. Maybe it's more accurate to say that you can be a good player without arbiters, but if you use 'em and use 'em well, you'll be a better player for it.
I'm gonna be dead serious here. Unless you are going carriers every game or are LRM)Oya, you need arbiters in PvT. Getting arbiters doesn't mean you are "gosu", it just means you don't suck. Sorry if my assertion that making top-tier units and spell casters is essential for playing at a high level comes off as too 'simplistic'. At no point does thezanursic disown his previous statement, so you're actually not in agreement.
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EPT
