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On July 28 2012 17:49 Notfragile wrote:
I always thought this change was to be implemented as a buff.
I see it this way. TvP (but also TvZ when terrans realise it's impossible to go vs ultra/ling/infestor without some snipes/emps) it is meant to give your ghost survivability while he casts.
Let's take a standard fight for example. If you cast emps and the enemy does not back off, your ghosts are dead in 90% of the fights because the run out of energy and reveal themselves, even if you positioned them perfectly and far away from the enemy detector. 5 ghosts is a reasonable number to have, right? 1000/500 and a lot of building time down the drain. Also dead ghosts cannot be regenerating energy waiting for the next fight.
Why is this going to be better after the change? Because after sniping and emping to your heart's content, your ghosts will not run out of energy and reveal themselves. You have a (quite large) set amount of time in which your ghosts are invisible, period. And meticulous scanning will reveal the enemy detector's position and moving patterns so you can use the ghosts effectively without them getting at such a large risk.
In other words they can be used BEFORE the fight, because you know if they don't have detection at that exact point (and you should know that by scans) they will unleash their spells and get back safely. This change is implemented because now at most cases the ghosts are going to a suicide mission if they spend their energy.
On the other hand, yes nuking will be nerfed and it is really sad that it will. As an average I'd be betting that ghosts are going to be far more effective than now, but everyone would love to see nukes being more mainstream. I really hope the devs take a look at this. I mean, Avilo has a point about nuking a half map split zerg being practically impossible. He is not right about this being a general terran nerf.
If you think 5 ghosts are enough in a lategame tvp army, you are probably terrible at this game or a zerg player. 15 is a good number to start with, but still not optimal. You wanna have around 20-25. Ghosts become the main part of your army. Protoss doesn't have any unit that is good agains ghosts, except maybe for colossus, which die very fast to emp and mass viking.
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Avilo complaining about the balance even before the beta is out, standard.
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lol avilo, just jump ship off this awful garbage game like every other decent player already has. it will never be balanced for terran because blizzard just listens to all the whiny 13 year old bitches like the ones posting in this thread :/ come play LoL a game that actually takes skill and is balanced  it has way more tournaments and 4-5 times the viewers at any one time than sc2...sc2 will be dead in a year max cause of shitty design decisions by blizzard.
u gotta sk8
User was banned for this post.
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On July 28 2012 05:16 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 05:12 Falling wrote:
Did this have to be framed as a balance concern?
It seems a very dumb design change, but framing it as a balance debate starts the argument at such an unhelpful note. It's okay, all the races got buffs and nerfs. Terran got buffed with the spider mine, zerg got nerfed since I believe the overseer is gone, etc. etc. -_- Complaining about balance in a game that hasn't even been played is laughable.
LOL i wonder what race this loser plays
i hope you die of cancer slowly
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Its a strong buff, just use drop ships and voila more energy for emp.
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This thread would have come across better if Avilo had frames it as a discussion about the ghost change instead of "Another terran Nurf." The problem with ballance discussions is the intelligence of the discussion quickley degenerated into that of 3 year olds fighting over who broke the fire truck.
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On July 28 2012 21:37 warwick wrote:lol avilo, just jump ship off this awful garbage game like every other decent player already has. it will never be balanced for terran because blizzard just listens to all the whiny 13 year old bitches like the ones posting in this thread :/ come play LoL a game that actually takes skill and is balanced it has way more tournaments and 4-5 times the viewers at any one time than sc2...sc2 will be dead in a year max cause of shitty design decisions by blizzard. u gotta sk8
LoL?? HA.
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Hmm, you make a good point, but yes, let's see where the game goes with the beta and its eventual release - hopefully this will be one of those things that are changed - but heck, for all we know, this could be perfectly balanced in the HOTS metagame. Just too soon to be too worried, but a valid point for now.
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We need to see HotS in its entirety to say anything about balance. Local imbalance is intended. Even if the Ghost is nerfed, that doesn't mean Terran got nerfed as a race. The analysis can be "objective" as Avilo claims but still false in its conclusion.
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote:
Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
If the feedback is "Please make my race better" one gets suspicious.
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On July 28 2012 23:33 [F_]aths wrote:
We need to see HotS in its entirety to say anything about balance. Local imbalance is intended. Even if the Ghost is nerfed, that doesn't mean Terran got nerfed as a race. The analysis can be "objective" as Avilo claims but still false in its conclusion.
Changing a unit in such a way as to make one of their uses less viable is a bad idea and Avilo gets ridiculed by tons of people here without his arguments being discussed. The question is: How do those intended changes "improve" the game? He explained his side of the story quite well, but the opposition is just saying "oh wait for the beta" and that is ridiculous. Nuke harrass is fun, but rare already and with such a change it will be extinct.
On July 28 2012 23:33 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote:
Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better. If the feedback is "Please make my race better" one gets suspicious.
Did he really ask for an improvement on the Ghosts or that they stay as they are? Complaining about nerfs isnt the same as asking for a buff.
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It is quite funny to see how people complete about game which isn't even released yet, nor is beta....
Useless discussion
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All I can say is "working as intended".
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I'm really mad about the proposed nerf in HotS where bunkers take 5 more seconds to build, and I'm not gonna take it any more!
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You know someone a few pages ago mentioned how great BW was because of the multiple ways units could be used. This change again restricts what terrans can do with a ghost. We used to be able to harass SCVs and early marines with snipe - no more. Now late game nuking is mostly off the table.
But hey I can emp psionic or snipe them.
Ghosts are now a one hit wonder.
I'll also reiterate, as a bronze player this "buff" in no way helps me use ghosts.
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How do we even know for sure that this change is in HotS? As far as I can tell the only evidence is from the HotS custom in WoL. Did someone see this at MLG or something?
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mmm that is an really interesting point. Didn't thought the cooldown is longer then the cloak duration, that really seems to ruin the ability to nuke a bit deeper inside the opponents territory, something fairly easy to stop for the opponent anyway. My only issue is that this is fairly lategame, so if it is implemented it will take a long time till you see issues with this, as ghosts are currently underused anyway because of the micro insensitivity. So it will have high chances to make it through beta.
But nukes will still allow to push the opponents defense line away, but the option to split up the deathball with nukes really seems hindered.
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that is the most stupid idea in the world what the fuck blizzard
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On July 29 2012 01:03 FeyFey wrote:
mmm that is an really interesting point. Didn't thought the cooldown is longer then the cloak duration, that really seems to ruin the ability to nuke a bit deeper inside the opponents territory, something fairly easy to stop for the opponent anyway. My only issue is that this is fairly lategame, so if it is implemented it will take a long time till you see issues with this, as ghosts are currently underused anyway because of the micro insensitivity. So it will have high chances to make it through beta.
But nukes will still allow to push the opponents defense line away, but the option to split up the deathball with nukes really seems hindered.
Exactly. This is one of those changes the developers would not be able to see down the line for quite a while because it's a change to lategame Terran, and not a lot of people currently have experience with lategame Terran to see the implications of a change to cloak.
I've played countless games into lategame and have a lot of experience with nuke harrassing in particular which is why I feel I know what I am talking about when I made this thread, and that the change would be a terrible design change.
Ironically, the developers want things to break up the deathball in HOTS, and lategame nuke multi-tasking harrass is currently one of those things in TvP/TvZ that forces the opponent to move their army somewhere else and multi-task. Unintentionally nerfing nuke harrass would be a travesty.
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This is a terrible thread, and not because of the content of the OP, but the idiotic, ad-hominem responses, including ones by pro players.
"The game isn't even in beta yet".
Well, duh. But this is an actual design change proposed by Browder/Kim. It seems completely terrible. You don't have to consider it in light of a yet-nonexistent metagame and its balance implications. Blizzard certainly isn't considering it in light of that, as they've removed entire units from the game since then. You can consider it in a vacuum, just like we did the Replicant and the Shredder, and say it's a fundamentally bad idea.
The earlier we have feedback and reasoned discussion about proposed design changes in the expansion, the better.
The character assassination and flippant dismissal of even the possibility of reasoned discussion is shameful and worthy of reddit, not TL.
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People who say wait for the beta to come out, you realize that this is a real proposed change? One they are REALLY considering making. Why does it upset you that Avilo makes a video that suggests that it is not a way to easily manage ghost energy like dustin browder thinks it will, and that it is actually a nerf? Why flame him for that?
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EPT
