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On July 28 2012 15:18 ROOTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 15:08 Goldfish wrote:On July 28 2012 10:04 S1eth wrote:
IIRC, Browder said that this change was supposed to help Terrans manage the energy on their ghosts, i.e. not forgetting to turn off cloak and running out of energy.
This change is aimed at the lower level Terran players, but hurts those who already know how to properly manage their ghosts, meaning it hurts high-level Terrans.
Did they change cloak on Banshee as well? Agreed. This hurts high level play. Also while the numbers can change, the concept itself can be talked about. Where were all the people who right now saying "wait for the beta" when the Shredder and Replicant was released?This is one of those changes you can easily talk about now instead of later. i was shitting on the replicant 1 week after blizzard introduced it, everyone was hating on me :[ and avilos point is retarded because he doesnt even factor in all the new terran units into his argument, hes just isolating 1 random ability without even fully understanding the reason why it might have been nerfed that way. the type of argument hes trying to make requires alot of gameplay analysis
Tyler also went off about the replicant as well. It was a stupid idea. Hopefully community feedback sped up that process. So is putting cloak on a cooldown. I dont know how you could possibly nuke with that, nor can I think of a reason that the change needs to be made. It also makes templar way hard to deal with if Protoss just pulls back until ghosts uncloak.
I haven't seen where you have presented evidence to the contrary. You just kind of said Avilos point is dumb. Good perspective on Viper though..
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TT1 and after being right about replicants, now you are hating on Avilo... without even addressing cloak itself. Does the hypocrisy escape you?
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How can they be nerfing something when it's a new game that no one has played in competitions yet? If they are nerfing the ghost as we see it now it is probably because they are changing other stuff aswell that would make the ghost as it is now a potentially overpowered unit.
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On July 28 2012 17:22 Mashmed wrote:
How can they be nerfing something when it's a new game that no one has played in competitions yet? If they are nerfing the ghost as we see it now it is probably because they are changing other stuff aswell that would make the ghost as it is now a potentially overpowered unit.
Even if Zerg and Protoss was removed from the game this would be a stupid change because it makes nuking completely impossible if your opponent is slightly competent.
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On July 28 2012 17:24 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 17:22 Mashmed wrote:
How can they be nerfing something when it's a new game that no one has played in competitions yet? If they are nerfing the ghost as we see it now it is probably because they are changing other stuff aswell that would make the ghost as it is now a potentially overpowered unit. Even if Zerg and Protoss was removed from the game this would be a stupid change because it makes nuking completely impossible if your opponent is slightly competent.
You have 30 seconds to nuke someone how is 30 seconds not enough?
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Leave it to Avilo to whine about a game that doesn't even exist yet.
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On July 28 2012 17:27 Mashmed wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 17:24 S_SienZ wrote:On July 28 2012 17:22 Mashmed wrote:
How can they be nerfing something when it's a new game that no one has played in competitions yet? If they are nerfing the ghost as we see it now it is probably because they are changing other stuff aswell that would make the ghost as it is now a potentially overpowered unit. Even if Zerg and Protoss was removed from the game this would be a stupid change because it makes nuking completely impossible if your opponent is slightly competent. You have 30 seconds to nuke someone how is 30 seconds not enough?
10 seconds only. 20 seconds taken up by channeling.
Travel distance.
Zergs will have creep. And lategame vT and vP would involve infiltrating their front lines to get to good nuke targets anyway.
You're also ignoring the fact that Ghosts aren't suicide units. At 200/100 costs you're supposed to try to save them after the nuke.
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I don't get why the mods are not more active in this thread. Why is it allowed to make personal attacks on someone when it is a well-writen explanation of what the change will do to late game Ghost play? Just because of his "reputation"?
Anyway, don't think that it should be called a nerf. It is a change and it will change strategies. We might get new ones out of it, and old ones will go away. It keeps the game interesting. Late-game nuke play is not all that fun anyway, playing hide and seek.
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I always thought this change was to be implemented as a buff.
I see it this way. TvP (but also TvZ when terrans realise it's impossible to go vs ultra/ling/infestor without some snipes/emps) it is meant to give your ghost survivability while he casts.
Let's take a standard fight for example. If you cast emps and the enemy does not back off, your ghosts are dead in 90% of the fights because the run out of energy and reveal themselves, even if you positioned them perfectly and far away from the enemy detector. 5 ghosts is a reasonable number to have, right? 1000/500 and a lot of building time down the drain. Also dead ghosts cannot be regenerating energy waiting for the next fight.
Why is this going to be better after the change? Because after sniping and emping to your heart's content, your ghosts will not run out of energy and reveal themselves. You have a (quite large) set amount of time in which your ghosts are invisible, period. And meticulous scanning will reveal the enemy detector's position and moving patterns so you can use the ghosts effectively without them getting at such a large risk.
In other words they can be used BEFORE the fight, because you know if they don't have detection at that exact point (and you should know that by scans) they will unleash their spells and get back safely. This change is implemented because now at most cases the ghosts are going to a suicide mission if they spend their energy.
On the other hand, yes nuking will be nerfed and it is really sad that it will. As an average I'd be betting that ghosts are going to be far more effective than now, but everyone would love to see nukes being more mainstream. I really hope the devs take a look at this. I mean, Avilo has a point about nuking a half map split zerg being practically impossible. He is not right about this being a general terran nerf.
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does it matter if the the OP come off kinda whiney? I mean in the end, he right. This change is really stupid. And according to the stuff I can find, this was indeed intended to be a buff but it definitely a nerf. When they are trying ot nerf something and it actually nerfing, then it clearly wrong.
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On July 28 2012 17:49 Notfragile wrote:
I always thought this change was to be implemented as a buff.
I see it this way. TvP (but also TvZ when terrans realise it's impossible to go vs ultra/ling/infestor without some snipes/emps) it is meant to give your ghost survivability while he casts.
Let's take a standard fight for example. If you cast emps and the enemy does not back off, your ghosts are dead in 90% of the fights because the run out of energy and reveal themselves, even if you positioned them perfectly and far away from the enemy detector. 5 ghosts is a reasonable number to have, right? 1000/500 and a lot of building time down the drain. Also dead ghosts cannot be regenerating energy waiting for the next fight.
Why is this going to be better after the change? Because after sniping and emping to your heart's content, your ghosts will not run out of energy and reveal themselves. You have a (quite large) set amount of time in which your ghosts are invisible, period. And meticulous scanning will reveal the enemy detector's position and moving patterns so you can use the ghosts effectively without them getting at such a large risk.
In other words they can be used BEFORE the fight, because you know if they don't have detection at that exact point (and you should know that by scans) they will unleash their spells and get back safely. This change is implemented because now at most cases the ghosts are going to a suicide mission if they spend their energy.
On the other hand, yes nuking will be nerfed and it is really sad that it will. As an average I'd be betting that ghosts are going to be far more effective than now, but everyone would love to see nukes being more mainstream. I really hope the devs take a look at this. I mean, Avilo has a point about nuking a half map split zerg being practically impossible. He is not right about this being a general terran nerf.
If you only have 5 ghosts in your comp then they're very replaceable. In fact it's probably better to let them die since new ones come out with Mobius Reactor.
No one gets ghosts for snipe anymore. This would have been a buff back in the days where you'd see Mvp rocking like 20 ghost armies.
If your ghosts are there for EMPs, once the EMPs are cast they're kinda pointless to focus on anyway. Rather spend APM keeping other units (tanks or bioball) alive.
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On July 28 2012 17:49 Notfragile wrote:
I always thought this change was to be implemented as a buff.
I see it this way. TvP (but also TvZ when terrans realise it's impossible to go vs ultra/ling/infestor without some snipes/emps) it is meant to give your ghost survivability while he casts.
Let's take a standard fight for example. If you cast emps and the enemy does not back off, your ghosts are dead in 90% of the fights because the run out of energy and reveal themselves, even if you positioned them perfectly and far away from the enemy detector. 5 ghosts is a reasonable number to have, right? 1000/500 and a lot of building time down the drain. Also dead ghosts cannot be regenerating energy waiting for the next fight.
Why is this going to be better after the change? Because after sniping and emping to your heart's content, your ghosts will not run out of energy and reveal themselves. You have a (quite large) set amount of time in which your ghosts are invisible, period. And meticulous scanning will reveal the enemy detector's position and moving patterns so you can use the ghosts effectively without them getting at such a large risk.
In other words they can be used BEFORE the fight, because you know if they don't have detection at that exact point (and you should know that by scans) they will unleash their spells and get back safely. This change is implemented because now at most cases the ghosts are going to a suicide mission if they spend their energy.
On the other hand, yes nuking will be nerfed and it is really sad that it will. As an average I'd be betting that ghosts are going to be far more effective than now, but everyone would love to see nukes being more mainstream. I really hope the devs take a look at this. I mean, Avilo has a point about nuking a half map split zerg being practically impossible. He is not right about this being a general terran nerf.
Lol infestor/observer?
edit: infestor for fungal ofcourse
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On July 28 2012 15:53 ROOTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 08:15 avilo wrote:On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote:
Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking. What the fuck? I expect better from you catz. Did you just come here to brag or something? This thread has nothing to do with "QQing," let alone you or me personally, why you would come here and bash me is beyond me. This thread has to do with a terrible design change. If they changed the infestor to be similar with a cool down on burrow...it would be just as bad of a design decision, and an unnecessary change. Or did you just post in this thread to try to discredit me/give credibility to the 1 liners in this thread? Very low. You literally said nothing about the topic at hand anywhere in your post lmao. Take your mindless bashing to reddit where it belongs, stop trying to derail this  this thread is not about me, it's about what blizzard has said they are considering doing to the ghost. + Show Spoiler +p.s. I thought it was cute yesterday that after my 3 hr stream session of the HOTS beta in the morning you had obviously been watching my stream and then got the idea to stream HOTS beta custom games from my stream I was flattered. sorry bro but this a QQ thread, ur just talking about how stupid it is for ghosts to get nerfed without even understanding the reasoning behind it. if this were an argument u would have provided examples in order to prove your point, which sadly u didnt do :[
So what would be the reasoning for the ghost cloak to be nerfed then? Too many protosses losing 30 probes to a nuke in silver league? Because I cant think of any other reason. What do you think?
ghost cloak nerf? really???
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On July 28 2012 11:34 CounterOrder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 10:27 Bippzy wrote:
Actually in a stalemate situation really lategame ghosts have never been correctly dealt with imo because its so hard to deal with them. Besides that, which can be written off as making the game take more skill, i feel complaining about a hots change when frickin hellions will be able to become firebats is too pre-emptive. You talk about it from a WOL perspective when it is for hots I hear ya, but has cloaked units ever been a problem? Would they be more of a problem in HotS? I dont see why. Each race has a building and a unit to detect cloaked units. Even without that its still very possible to notice them on your screen and get detection asap. Plus theres fungal, EMP, Scans, obs take the snap of a finger to build and with spd upg they are boss. I think a player with any skill should be able to counter cloak well enough that changes to the cloak mechanic are not needed.
On one hand yes, it is completely counterable, the other hand dictates that in starcraft, the ends dont justify the means. What I mean by that is taking a situation that is completely managable for a race(tvz before queen patch, now ghosts) and changing the way it fundamentally works is terrible for those who would appreciate the current ghost mechanics of leaving ghosts around with enough energy to cloak a battlecruiser, and good for those who can accept the direction the developers want to take, with everything else considered(the main point of all the "stop whining" posts being a general lack of knowledge).
This is like making infestors slower, it is a nerf that is presented as a helpig hand to players, but it's totally fine and doesn't put the unit very far down from it's original self
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On July 28 2012 17:30 Domus wrote:
I don't get why the mods are not more active in this thread. Why is it allowed to make personal attacks on someone when it is a well-writen explanation of what the change will do to late game Ghost play? Just because of his "reputation"?
Anyway, don't think that it should be called a nerf. It is a change and it will change strategies. We might get new ones out of it, and old ones will go away. It keeps the game interesting. Late-game nuke play is not all that fun anyway, playing hide and seek.
I agree.
So many people jump on the Replicant, Shredder, Tempest, (and before then HotS in general) hate bandwagon before they got to even play HotS, but now all of a sudden everyone is saying "wait for the game" or "wait for the beta".
Again, the concept (changes that changes the concept) can always be talked about before the beta even starts.
Plus, the beta isn't that far away anyway, so starting to talk about it now isn't that bad of an idea.
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Complaning about balance even before beta is out
I immediately knew that this is a avilo thread
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I think it would be better to wait until the game is at least in beta before addressing these kinds of issues, for all we know the game could be entirely different then compared to how it is now and we cannot assume that any present changes will stay. When it's such a subtle change/nerf/call it what you want like this one waiting to see what the actual beta will look like is definitely the most reasonable thing to do.
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This is a good change, if ghosts don't show on minimap while cloak CD is up.
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On July 28 2012 19:55 Hyperionnn wrote:
Complaning about balance even before beta is out
I immediately knew that this is a avilo thread
And how is the argumentation bad? You and lots of others are just saying that you dont want to warn Blizzard when they are about to do something obviously stupid. That this change is obviously terrible is easy to see when you look at the "I want to send my single Ghosts everywhere to nuke-harrass". This change is NOT terrible and a buff for "combat Ghosts" who cloak and then head off to snipe/EMP a number of Infestors or High Templars (you will have more energy for those secondary actions due to cloaking not draining energy). If you add these useages both together you end up with a NERF due to the Ghost being less useful overall. Due to having more energy you will also be much more vulnerable to Feedback and thus even the combat Ghost "buff" isnt that big and being unable to cloak for 60 seconds really negates that energy advantage in any game against Protoss.
So instead of dissing Avilo for his complaints about changes which arent in the game yet people should argue with his reasoning or shut up.
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Terran players at the higher levels are the more mechanically sound players. There's more macro/micro involved in 1 Terran game than z/p combined. If they were to make the game balanced then we would likely see more Terran dominance as our skill/mechanics surpass that of our Z/P counterparts. Terran players need a disadvantage, such as being able to lose after completely outplaying an opponent if you will. Blizzard knows what they are doing, otherwise we would be winning everything.
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EPT
