I don't understand how people can confuse completely non-personal and "racially charged" slurs with personal and very very hurtful attacks on someone and their character. That is the difference between someone (like Destiny) saying niggger/spick/etc. and someone making a thread or post where the work-ethic, intelligence, maturity, and fiscal responsibility of a man towards his child/former significant other is not only questioned but outright denegrated! The fact that we (the sc2/tl/reddit blah blah blah) community are just SOOOO upset about the silly, inconsequential use of impersonal and generalized racial slurs, but its just fine if a MOD or anyone else attacks an individual and questions everything about his personal and moral moorings and writes deleterious BS and passive aggressive attacks on his character and is then vilified for being the fucking courageous one who stood up to that evil and over-bearing Destiny character, who has always been so active in trying to buck the TL establishment...Jesus, the hypocrasy that I have seen displayed by the staff of TL...you already state you don't give a single damn about anything but the leanest definition of free expression of opinion, you might want to addend that and state that you literally don't care about any opinion that isn't in-line with yours, and you are going to censor and/or discredit them as much as possible. I think that most of the people that are complaining would just like a little consistency from you, I know I would.
That being said, I think that Destiny has been skirting the line for a while now, but you knew who he was, Quantic knows who he IS and they support him, they seem like an upstanding organization to me, willing to work WITH people instead of ostracizing them immediately and cutting their losses. They see his potential and they obviously understand the "risks" inherent in a personality/player like Destiny. Unless his team asked you to unfeature him its a low-blow move against him, and his many fans. I know that the TL staff and such are probably hoping that this will teach Destiny some sort of lesson, but I'll be damned if I can see what it is, and I guarantee that if I'm having trouble figuring it out, as an outside observer, you can be sure that Destiny is probably a little fuzzy on what it is supposed to be, as the person that has recieved all of this negativity and been trying to deal with it. I know you have a reputation to protect TL, but man you guys seem to be really going about defending and enriching it in the wrong way :/ GL to you all in the future, I really hope that people, TL included can stop being the sensationalist crazies that they are.
On May 03 2012 04:16 Zren89 wrote: I don't understand how people can confuse completely non-personal and "racially charged" slurs with personal and very very hurtful attacks on someone and their character. That is the difference between someone (like Destiny) saying niggger/spick/etc. and someone making a thread or post where the work-ethic, intelligence, maturity, and fiscal responsibility of a man towards his child/former significant other is not only questioned but outright denegrated! The fact that we (the sc2/tl/reddit blah blah blah) community are just SOOOO upset about the silly, inconsequential use of impersonal and generalized racial slurs, but its just fine if a MOD or anyone else attacks an individual and questions everything about his personal and moral moorings and writes deleterious BS and passive aggressive attacks on his character and is then vilified for being the fucking courageous one who stood up to that evil and over-bearing Destiny character, who has always been so active in trying to buck the TL establishment...Jesus, the hypocrasy that I have seen displayed by the staff of TL...you already state you don't give a single damn about anything but the leanest definition of free expression of opinion, you might want to addend that and state that you literally don't care about any opinion that isn't in-line with yours, and you are going to censor and/or discredit them as much as possible. I think that most of the people that are complaining would just like a little consistency from you, I know I would.
This guy knows whats up. Fantastic post, dude. I'd give you a high five if I could.
It's pretty much bullshit to ban him, and it shows an obvious bias from TL. TL the team, I love, TL the forums, I do not. I think they're poorly run, and the bajillion moderators think they're special shit. There are posts that you'll read, where someone seemed reasonable and they receive a warning, or even temp bans, for stupid meaningless shit. Sometimes its for a meaningless, contentless post where a user says nothing of substance, and they'll receive a warning...But guess what, the dozen other people with similar posts get nothing.
It's just such an arbitrary, biased system. It's a mess, quite frankly. And the fact that you can have a mod actively goading a user to attack them, and then ban them for retaliation is just absurd.
Grow some fucking balls. We're gamers, and this is how gamers speak. The fact that Destiny would call a white person a gook shows that he attaches no racist meaning to it, he just says it to provoke a response.
On May 03 2012 04:16 Zren89 wrote: I don't understand how people can confuse completely non-personal and "racially charged" slurs with personal and very very hurtful attacks on someone and their character.
It looks like you're trying to justify racist comments. Your justification is that
( ) people have free speech and should be able to say whatever they want (X) they are just words ( ) context matters ( ) everyone says racist things to some extent ( ) you're not REALLY a racist, it's just a joke and everyone should lighten up ( ) there is some kernel of truth to stereotypes ( ) others being offended is not your problem, nor your fault ( ) black people use the word nigger, so white people can too
and therefore this is not a big deal. You're wrong. Here's why you're wrong. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have too many other flaws to list here because your augment holds water like a wet paper bag.)
Specifically, you are too self-centered to understand that
( ) there is a difference between rights and duties. You have a right to be a racist fuck, but you also have a duty to not be a racist fuck. ( ) I also have free speech and agency. I can react by being offended and calling out your asshole behavior. (X) words can offend people. Offending a group of people for something they cannot change (e.g. race and sexual orientation) is not nice. (X) people have had those racist words thrown at them previously in their life. It's possible they have suffered physical harm while hearing those racist words. ( ) just because some people are racist doesn't make it okay. (X) the context is that your racism is an asshole move and insults a class of people. Context matters for the person listening just as much. ( ) you're not making racial humor. You're not Dave Chapelle. It's racist. He knows where the line is for acceptable humor, you apparently do not. ( ) asking someone to lighten up when they've been called that name and been physically, economically, or emotionally hurt when the word was thrown around isn't funny to them. There's a reason they're offended. ( ) being an asshole to an entire class of people due to stereotypes encourages racist behavior for those that do not deserve it. Often times these stereotypes exist due to economic or cultural reasons -- that doesn't make it nice. ( ) offending others means they will fight back. ( ) offending others is your fault. It's your choice to offend them, but it's also their choice to be an asshole back to you. ( ) black people can use the word nigger and gay people can use the word fag because it is a reclaiming of an offensive word. It is an attempt to remove the sting from the word. You have no right to use it because you're not removing the sting, you're piling it on.
and the following philosophical objections may also apply: ( ) There is a difference between saying Cracker and Nigger. One has a history that sparks up racial hate that exists to this day. Calling someone a cracker does not bring up the topic of systematic racism. ( ) It's not a valid argument to justify racism because other people do it. That includes your accuser. Ad-hominem attacks don't work past 4th grade. (X) This is not the fun police, you can offend people and be an asshole, but racism is not nice. The difference is you are not only offending any single target -- you are offending a whole class of people. ( ) You are communicating in a broadcast medium, other viewers/observers can be offended. ( ) If you have a right to be an asshole, I also have a right to take action. ( ) You are not Rosa Parks fighting for majority rights. ( ) There's a difference between offending someone and offending a whole class of people. The Merry Pranksters are fun, racism is not. ( ) You need to empathize more with others, please check with your therapist on whether you have Aspergers. ( ) A slippery slope argument doesn't work. It's fairly obvious that calling someone nigger or fag is not okay. We can argue about hypotheticals all day but we are discussing a specific clear-cut example. ( ) From a utilitarian perspective, using racist remarks hurts business. ( ) Please read up on the "Invisible Backpack", your privilege is leaking out. ( ) You are not showing THE MAN, you just come off as an ignorant, provincial jackass. ( ) Living in a society where everyone is an asshole to everyone else is no fun.
Furthermore, this is what I think about you: (X) Sorry dude, you should try to empathize with others more. ( ) You are an asshole, please GTFO. ( ) Fuck off, I hope you say that shit in public and get shot.
No, this is not how gamers speak. This is how a selected minority of gamers speak. I pesonally hope a very small minority.
How long have you been on the internet? SC2 ladder and every other single game is just filled with rude behavior....
It looks like you're trying to justify racist comments. Your justification is that
( ) people have free speech and should be able to say whatever they want ( ) they are just words ( ) context matters (X) everyone says racist things to some extent ( ) you're not REALLY a racist, it's just a joke and everyone should lighten up ( ) there is some kernel of truth to stereotypes ( ) others being offended is not your problem, nor your fault ( ) black people use the word nigger, so white people can too
and therefore this is not a big deal. You're wrong. Here's why you're wrong. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have too many other flaws to list here because your augment holds water like a wet paper bag.)
Specifically, you are too self-centered to understand that
( ) there is a difference between rights and duties. You have a right to be a racist fuck, but you also have a duty to not be a racist fuck. ( ) I also have free speech and agency. I can react by being offended and calling out your asshole behavior. ( ) words can offend people. Offending a group of people for something they cannot change (e.g. race and sexual orientation) is not nice. ( ) people have had those racist words thrown at them previously in their life. It's possible they have suffered physical harm while hearing those racist words. (X) just because some people are racist doesn't make it okay. ( ) the context is that your racism is an asshole move and insults a class of people. Context matters for the person listening just as much. ( ) you're not making racial humor. You're not Dave Chapelle. It's racist. He knows where the line is for acceptable humor, you apparently do not. ( ) asking someone to lighten up when they've been called that name and been physically, economically, or emotionally hurt when the word was thrown around isn't funny to them. There's a reason they're offended. ( ) being an asshole to an entire class of people due to stereotypes encourages racist behavior for those that do not deserve it. Often times these stereotypes exist due to economic or cultural reasons -- that doesn't make it nice. ( ) offending others means they will fight back. ( ) offending others is your fault. It's your choice to offend them, but it's also their choice to be an asshole back to you. ( ) black people can use the word nigger and gay people can use the word fag because it is a reclaiming of an offensive word. It is an attempt to remove the sting from the word. You have no right to use it because you're not removing the sting, you're piling it on.
and the following philosophical objections may also apply: ( ) There is a difference between saying Cracker and Nigger. One has a history that sparks up racial hate that exists to this day. Calling someone a cracker does not bring up the topic of systematic racism. (X) It's not a valid argument to justify racism because other people do it. That includes your accuser. Ad-hominem attacks don't work past 4th grade. ( ) This is not the fun police, you can offend people and be an asshole, but racism is not nice. The difference is you are not only offending any single target -- you are offending a whole class of people. ( ) You are communicating in a broadcast medium, other viewers/observers can be offended. ( ) If you have a right to be an asshole, I also have a right to take action. ( ) You are not Rosa Parks fighting for majority rights. ( ) There's a difference between offending someone and offending a whole class of people. The Merry Pranksters are fun, racism is not. ( ) You need to empathize more with others, please check with your therapist on whether you have Aspergers. ( ) A slippery slope argument doesn't work. It's fairly obvious that calling someone nigger or fag is not okay. We can argue about hypotheticals all day but we are discussing a specific clear-cut example. ( ) From a utilitarian perspective, using racist remarks hurts business. ( ) Please read up on the "Invisible Backpack", your privilege is leaking out. ( ) You are not showing THE MAN, you just come off as an ignorant, provincial jackass. (X) Living in a society where everyone is an asshole to everyone else is no fun.
Furthermore, this is what I think about you: (X) Sorry dude, you should try to empathize with others more. ( ) You are an asshole, please GTFO. ( ) Fuck off, I hope you say that shit in public and get shot.
No, this is not how gamers speak. This is how a selected minority of gamers speak. I pesonally hope a very small minority.
How long have you been on the internet? SC2 ladder and every other single game is just filled with rude behavior....
nonsense checklist
since when was I trying to justify racism? he said a minority of gamers speak this way which is hilariously wrong and imo he is just lying to himself and others.
Hey lets battle ignorance with ignorance ^>~
I'm glad destiny is removed, I never liked him. On the other hand tho he's removed because I am sure the majority of people who are offended aren't really offended and only want to mess other people up on the internet, ie a sort of "GOT EM troll". I don't like those people either. Internet politics too dum c u
I quoted the entire thread. It makes sense in context. The only reason you have issue with ScienceRob's comment is because you're trying to justify it as acceptable. Every game is not filled with racism.
On May 03 2012 04:16 Zren89 wrote: I don't understand how people can confuse completely non-personal and "racially charged" slurs with personal and very very hurtful attacks on someone and their character.
It looks like you're trying to justify racist comments. Your justification is that
( ) people have free speech and should be able to say whatever they want (X) they are just words ( ) context matters ( ) everyone says racist things to some extent ( ) you're not REALLY a racist, it's just a joke and everyone should lighten up ( ) there is some kernel of truth to stereotypes ( ) others being offended is not your problem, nor your fault ( ) black people use the word nigger, so white people can too
and therefore this is not a big deal. You're wrong. Here's why you're wrong. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have too many other flaws to list here because your augment holds water like a wet paper bag.)
Specifically, you are too self-centered to understand that
( ) there is a difference between rights and duties. You have a right to be a racist fuck, but you also have a duty to not be a racist fuck. ( ) I also have free speech and agency. I can react by being offended and calling out your asshole behavior. (X) words can offend people. Offending a group of people for something they cannot change (e.g. race and sexual orientation) is not nice. (X) people have had those racist words thrown at them previously in their life. It's possible they have suffered physical harm while hearing those racist words. ( ) just because some people are racist doesn't make it okay. (X) the context is that your racism is an asshole move and insults a class of people. Context matters for the person listening just as much. ( ) you're not making racial humor. You're not Dave Chapelle. It's racist. He knows where the line is for acceptable humor, you apparently do not. ( ) asking someone to lighten up when they've been called that name and been physically, economically, or emotionally hurt when the word was thrown around isn't funny to them. There's a reason they're offended. ( ) being an asshole to an entire class of people due to stereotypes encourages racist behavior for those that do not deserve it. Often times these stereotypes exist due to economic or cultural reasons -- that doesn't make it nice. ( ) offending others means they will fight back. ( ) offending others is your fault. It's your choice to offend them, but it's also their choice to be an asshole back to you. ( ) black people can use the word nigger and gay people can use the word fag because it is a reclaiming of an offensive word. It is an attempt to remove the sting from the word. You have no right to use it because you're not removing the sting, you're piling it on.
and the following philosophical objections may also apply: ( ) There is a difference between saying Cracker and Nigger. One has a history that sparks up racial hate that exists to this day. Calling someone a cracker does not bring up the topic of systematic racism. ( ) It's not a valid argument to justify racism because other people do it. That includes your accuser. Ad-hominem attacks don't work past 4th grade. (X) This is not the fun police, you can offend people and be an asshole, but racism is not nice. The difference is you are not only offending any single target -- you are offending a whole class of people. ( ) You are communicating in a broadcast medium, other viewers/observers can be offended. ( ) If you have a right to be an asshole, I also have a right to take action. ( ) You are not Rosa Parks fighting for majority rights. ( ) There's a difference between offending someone and offending a whole class of people. The Merry Pranksters are fun, racism is not. ( ) You need to empathize more with others, please check with your therapist on whether you have Aspergers. ( ) A slippery slope argument doesn't work. It's fairly obvious that calling someone nigger or fag is not okay. We can argue about hypotheticals all day but we are discussing a specific clear-cut example. ( ) From a utilitarian perspective, using racist remarks hurts business. ( ) Please read up on the "Invisible Backpack", your privilege is leaking out. ( ) You are not showing THE MAN, you just come off as an ignorant, provincial jackass. ( ) Living in a society where everyone is an asshole to everyone else is no fun.
Furthermore, this is what I think about you: (X) Sorry dude, you should try to empathize with others more. ( ) You are an asshole, please GTFO. ( ) Fuck off, I hope you say that shit in public and get shot.
I know very well that words can hurt people, but words can hurt people without them being racist can they not? one does not preclude the possibility of the other? they are not mutually exclusive, yes? I know very well that context matters to the listener. Way to take a single line from the post and expand it into the entire thesis of my argument, bravo you have just won the asshat of the day award, congratulations. Also a fucking form letter?!? You couldn't even summon the creativity or self-respect to write an original argument? Lazy AND self-important I see.
Language isn't static. What means one thing today doesn't mean that tomorrow, words that didn't even EXIST twenty years ago are now common parlance, or do you think bootylicious was part of ye olde-english? Language is the tool, the person who is uttering it is the person who gives it the context, and (this isn't aimed at you in particular) the color of your skin or the orientation of your sexuality don't give you license to say something that someone else can't. WE have the right to freedom of speech, that fundamental truth is the reason that there aren't specific rules for US and another set for THEM, THAT is racist. So tell me again why I'm so self-centered that I can't understand why these words could possibly be hurtful to someone?
Words hurt but its the person that uses them that makes them hurtful, the words in question are completely divorced from their "origins" in the context used by Destiny, and by many other people, go watch Anything by Louis C.K. and grow the fuck up! There are no inherently racist words, just inherently racist people.
On May 03 2012 08:24 haileris wrote: I quoted the entire thread. It makes sense in context. The only reason you have issue with ScienceRob's comment is because you're trying to justify it as acceptable. Every game is not filled with racism.
Don't put words in my mouth k thx, racists are bad but annoying people like you are also bad as well
On May 03 2012 08:26 Zren89 wrote: I know very well that words can hurt people, but words can hurt people without them being racist can they not?
Yes, absolutely. There is a difference from BMing an individual and calling someone a nigger, especially in a broadcast medium because it justifies that behavior as acceptable. It encourages racist behavior and offends the viewers. Offending an individual is one thing, offending a class of people which encourages systemic racism in the world at large is a more problematic issue. It is what we are discussing, not individual BM.
On May 03 2012 08:26 Zren89 wrote: Words hurt but its the person that uses them that makes them hurtful, the words in question are completely divorced from their "origins" in the context used by Destiny, and by many other people, go watch Anything by Louis C.K. and grow the fuck up! There are no inherently racist words, just inherently racist people.
Louis CK has disavowed that standup in his interviews (much like Dave Chapelle). Please see his sketch:
On May 03 2012 08:26 Zren89 wrote: Language isn't static.
Calling someone a nigger is pretty fucking racist today because black people are discriminated against. Calling someone a dirty Samaritan in the USA will give you weird looks and doesn't matter.
No, this is not how gamers speak. This is how a selected minority of gamers speak. I pesonally hope a very small minority.
Thank you. While I agree that a lot of people are getting worked up over nothing and Destiny most like IS NOT racist, it would be very sad if a majority of gamers actually talked this way.
Has anyone brought up how the frequency of these words he uses is increasing? When I first started watching him he seemed more funny, less stressed, and to enjoy himself more. Lately, its like all of his jokes have become less edgy and more mean-spirited. I feel like he's developed angry young man syndrome. Was I the only one that was becoming turned off by this darker mien? He would rant went I first watched him, but now it seems that is all he does.
This is the stream thread why are people talking about the issue with the language he used? Use the reddit thread if you feel it hasnt be talked to death yet.
On May 03 2012 09:02 agitprop wrote: Has anyone brought up how the frequency of these words he uses is increasing? When I first started watching him he seemed more funny, less stressed, and to enjoy himself more. Lately, its like all of his jokes have become less edgy and more mean-spirited. I feel like he's developed angry young man syndrome. Was I the only one that was becoming turned off by this darker mien? He would rant went I first watched him, but now it seems that is all he does.
Well, it's because no one who he plays when he doesn't stream is actually funny/are annoying as shit.
Think about it, he's become known as that guy who just goes infestor every game; people meta-game him, people stream-snipe and stream-cheat at him, and he just keeps getting attacked on ladder for things with things like "Oh look, infestors OP, who'd have guessed", "nice infestors, bro, only reason you're any good" or things along those lines. Seriously, when he finally got a style that was macro oriented and fit him, he just got this downpour of shit poured on him because he was continually associated with being a crappy sc2 player that was really funny at the beginning of his career and was the only reason he got famous and so people thought infestors were the catalyst for his new-found ability, not Destiny's growth as an SC2 player.
His ban was an inevitable thing as long as he was playing on the NA server, I think...
No, this is not how gamers speak. This is how a selected minority of gamers speak. I pesonally hope a very small minority.
Thank you. While I agree that a lot of people are getting worked up over nothing and Destiny most like IS NOT racist, it would be very sad if a majority of gamers actually talked this way.
May I ask what sheltered gaming communities you've been a part of and for how long? Because anyone with almost any PC gaming exposure should be nearly completely unphased by Destiny's remarks, and know that it happens very frequently. For those of us gaming since the days of 56k, being called a name in a video game is just humorous actually.
EPT
