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DHS: Recession fueling right-wing extremism - Page 13

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TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-11 23:37:29
June 11 2009 23:27 GMT
#241
On June 12 2009 05:31 Piretes wrote:
Ridiculing respected and renowned economists - the best of the best have shaped the bailout - is quite laughable. Your credibility on this matter comes from what? Drawing comparisons with the past? We can debate on the rights on wrongs of the bailout in other threads.

Indeed, the moderate conservatives are not opposed to the economic policies on priciple - the large majority of the population agrees that we needs bailouts and economic policy.
Furthermore, the government is not labeling the people opposed to these plans as extremists based on their opinions - only on their actions. It's not illegal to be a fiscal conservative. You try to turn this around, calling people in support of the plans 'left wing extremists' and 'radical fascists'. Yeah, Obama and all of the democrats must be both!!! I think that's much, much more of a stretch, seeing as the overwhelming majority of the population, from moderate conservatives to radical liberals, agrees with the need for economic policy.

BTW, calling me a fool for 'trusting' the 'government' is funny. Yes, I have trust in a entity which does things for the collective, things we can't do by ourselves. From the way you regard the government as evil, you must be one of those conspiracy theorists who believe in complicated schemes to rob you of your freedom. You wouldn't trust the government if it were building a city road. Too bad almost everyone disagrees.



Oh? Who might be these renowned economists?

Geitner? - the man is out of his depth - couldn't come up with a coherent plan to save his job. Was head of the IMF for the Asian economic crisis of 99. Made that crisis WORSE with his meddling. There's also a strong stench of being inside Wall Street's pocket.

Paulson? - he was responsible for most of the hysteria in the first place when he claimed that there would be total economic disaster if he didn't have 700 Billion dollars!?

Larry Summers? - the man was here for the first crisis of confidence Long-Term Capital Management. They bailed out LTCM so the financial industry kept the Black-Scholes options pricing model - the econometric theory behind the MBOs and CDOs.

How about Roubini? He saw it coming and didn't recommend half of the crap that was done in TARP and TARP II.

537 members of congress and 1 president Obama? I suppose these folks count as brilliant economists, too? Because they are responsible for half of the garbage that went into the stimulus bill, and the previous stimulus bill, and the previous ridiculous spending package.

These are people really worthy of our trust since they were brilliant enough to cause the economic crisis in the first place. "Trust us." Perhaps for you they just need to add "because we represent the government." Hell they could be lying and it'd still work.

As for left-wing extremism, Bush and Republicans are as guilty as Obama and the Democrats. The nationalization of AIG was unprecedented level of meddling in the economy of the country during peace time. It was a forced take over. TARP and the forced sale of stock warrants by various banks healthy and unhealthy to the government. That is unprecedented. The delegation of 700 billion dollars to the Treasury department to do as they wish is unprecedented. The meddling in GM, Chrysler, more of the same. The threats against hedge funds to give up their senior position in liquidation procedures of said auto companies, were more unprecedented meddling in an ONGOING legal proceeding.

These are all radical actions of the most extreme persuasion. Threats of persecution against banks, against hedge funds, against individuals for being in politically unpopular economic positions all fascist to me.

The only freedom that's really necessary is to opt out of all of this garbage, so I expect to rip up my US passport pretty soon. Easy enough solution.

And it's not the American people. It's just Washington. Back when they were passing TARP 80% of the general population was against it, but Washington passed it anyways. The idea that Congressmen in Washington truly represented his constituents got shot to hell by that. That's yet another example of Washington extremism, the hubris to disregard public opinion.

It's laughably hypocritical of them to issue a report that labels people speaking out against the power base in Washington as dangerous right-wing extremists. The funny part was that the report contained a lot of warnings against other forms of left-wing extremists - those not represented by the cabal in Washington right now.
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Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
June 11 2009 23:50 GMT
#242
On June 12 2009 08:27 TanGeng wrote:
The only freedom that's really necessary is to opt out of all of this garbage, so I expect to rip up my US passport pretty soon. Easy enough solution.


Don't rip it up until you've arrived at wherever you're going.

And it's not the American people. It's just Washington. Back when they were passing TARP 80% of the general population was against it, but Washington passed it anyways. The idea that Congressmen in Washington truly represented his constituents got shot to hell by that. That's yet another example of Washington extremism, the hubris to disregard public opinion.


Well, fuck, our Constitution was written by a group of men who were exceeding their mandate. And there's no way to tell whether or not the adoption of the Constitution actually had popular support.

so, uh, par for the course?
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
Yurebis
Profile Joined January 2009
United States1452 Posts
June 11 2009 23:53 GMT
#243
Shit, ok I'm sorry I did lie, I commented on it second hand off libertarian bloggers. I swear I'll read it this time.

There are about 15 cases of arrests/convictions of conspiracy to commit terrorism or assault, and 4 cases of actual assaults/bombs. The ugliest one seems to be the one where Eric Robert Rudolph bombed this park injured 100 an killed one, but he's not from any militia, just a catholic nut?
There's this other one where a former militia colonel who shot a deputy in his car.

One crazy mofo called Scott Allen Woodring, militia member, shot and killed a state trooper. Idiot, you're not supposed to shoot them if they have a warrant, lol :[. He got killed a week later confronting a SWAT team...

I'll keep reading but I admit, I'm sorry I didn't read it before spilling shit at you L. It may be more than 1% but I don't know by how much. I will keep reading to redeem my mistakes and I'll get back to you what I think.

Honestly though most of those "plot unveils" gotta be bull, they probably just wiretap one meeting, see there's tons of guns, hear someone say something funny, and bang, arrest everyone on the spot. People who are really serious about something ain't that easy to catch even if you bug them and stuff.I gotta see the convictions and court cases on each...
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Piretes
Profile Joined April 2008
Netherlands218 Posts
June 12 2009 13:34 GMT
#244
TanGeng, I am not going to debate with someone who is only blatantly against everything. You keep attacking the government for being 'left-wing extremist', even under Bush. That's some weird shit right there.

I can agree that the government is spending alot of money, but calling this left-wing goes beyond my understanding. It was neo-conservative policy, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and especially the American consumer culture which keeps accumulating debt. The current government needs to borrow alot to attempt to fix this mess.

Sure you can keep calling this extremist, but you haven't brought up your own solutions for the problem. Which economically brilliant plan would work, according to you?? Do you seriously think that Washington has not reviewed all the options? Do you believe these people are lending money and nationalizing industries just for the fun of it? Barrack Obama is not a conspirer against America, he is trying to fix the nation's problems. The large majority of america agrees something needs to be done. The people who are under scrutiny in this report disagree, and as is clear by the two recent events, are prepared to go to violent ends.

I really wonder why you would trust hedge-funds and banks, which got themselves into this unholy mess, more than the government, which is trying to fix this. And you can't just ignore all these problems. Rather, accept that the government is here to help you, wether or not you disagree with the system itself, or the political colour of it's policy. We can debate about policy and system, but not about your total distrust for the government institution itself.
Yurebis
Profile Joined January 2009
United States1452 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-12 23:36:35
June 12 2009 23:27 GMT
#245
fuuuck my computer crashed after hours of investigoogling as i was typing into an unsaved text document about each militia member conspiracy case. I lost all the links to articles and court cases... I'll have to do it all over again but I'll say this in the meanwhile

About 80% of those "plot to bomb federal buildings and murder officials" charges are all crap, the only testimony and evidence in most are from a single undercover (provocateur) agents, or a payed informant inside the group or friends with the group member.

Most go like this:
Agent provocateur joins or contacts the militia group or key members thereof.
Agent tries to stir up shit.
Agent offers to provide illegal supplies, and if they accept it, bam, raided, charged.
Court acquits involved members of conspiracy because its so retarded, but still convicts them of ~10 years for having the illegal shit, plus maybe some other illegal shit found in the raid.

Sometimes its like this.
Agent provocateur contacts militia members saying they'd pay $$$ for bombs, illegal weapons, etc. posing as a rightist or terrorist group member
Militia member gets the shit, sells him
Arrest, indict.
This one is a little bit more "fair" but it's weak evidence that they were going to do anything with the weapons/bombs. They made use of this strategy once some laws against terrorist aids were passed in 1994 or around that time. IMO the idiots were just playing around with them and got punk'd.

In some rare occasions it's just plain fraud, the feds go and implant sensitive evidence in their home and bust them with it. Theres this one guy who got imprisoned for having dug some pipe bombs in his front lawn, but the testifying FBI agent admitted in court the guy wasn't there to dig it at the time they were dug? I don't know, that case is weird but smells of straightforward fabrication.

The other 20%, yes, it's retards saying out loud their plans of 'insurgency' and stockpiling illegal stuff for it. Idiots think they're doing good planning to overthrow and kill officials. And then besides those indicted of conspiracy, there's a handful of militia members who really did shoot cops or bomb shit. These are despicable and I disdain them in every way. But like the greatest thinkers in history would say, "barking dogs don't bite" [citation needed] so even them I don't believe would do what they said they'd do. The FBI/BATF comes over and takes them away, they don't even resist the little wusses lol. Once out of prison, you don't hear a thing about them no more.
I laughed out loud reading this: (from another website, can't find it now)
http://www.adl.org/learn/news/kent_militia.asp ...dude couldn't even hit a single cop. but thats irrelevant. moving on.

The source I went through to find all militant crimes was the website below (SPLC.. lol, oh well.). I'm not counting racist group members, separatist group members, strictly religous group members or loners as militia members, unless they're like members of both groups at the same time, or if they're ex-members sometimes. Well basically any crazy dude who is really a militia member (duh).
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=903
I stopped at ~2001 when my computer crashed... and then proceeded to write this post. I had read through about 15 cases total, linking readily available news articles. There were only like 5 court indictments of conspiracy, to either kill or bomb buildings, and I'd say maybe only one or two would really be crazy enough to do it. So... the percentages above? yeah, thats not scientific in any way, it's just my perception, if you didn't figure that out yet. I need to recompile the list from the start to have "hard" data.

...well I wasn't going to go ahead with the statistics... but I'm gonna do it now anyways, just because it's still fresh in my head. Let us try some unscientific statistics. I need to know how many militia members are there, and how many violent crimes they commit per year, and I'll compare that with the violent crimes stats in some random year. I'll see.

I say there are 20,000 militia members in the US. Some crazy mofos say theres half a million and there might as well be, but that's too much of a stretch without any data. 20k is really a conservative number because the Michigan Militia alone says they got 10k, so if there's at the very least about 200 members in every other state, it adds up to 20k easily. Plus there's millions of gun owners out there so its not hard to say a tiny little fraction of those are militia members. It's hard to determine accurately how many militia members are there though, because the feds and media have been such hardcore faggots, so they have to "hide", to be left alone. IMO there has to be at least 100k these days but I'll go with 20k anyway, it won't matter at the end and you'll see why...

Now the crimes. From all the cases I've read, I will go with the figure of 40 criminals; I'll assume there were 40 members that were either indicted of aggravated assault/murder, or indicted of conspiracy to kill/bomb. Not just having illegal weapons, thats not necessarily violent. Not just charged of conspiracy, indicted, i.o.w. found beyond a reasonable doubt in court that they were planning on using violence with their hot stuff. There were 40 'crazy militant extremists' indicted, in a range of almost 20 years of time. So once every year in average, we have two crazy nutjobs going to prison for a violent offense.

The ratio I will be using is (criminals/year)/population:
40 / 20 / 20,000 = 0.0001 or .01%

.01% of militia members make the news with an indictment of a violent crime or conspiracy to commit one, per year.

Well thats kind of good news because compared to the national average, it's not that far off:

I'm gonna compare it to gun violence crimes. I know some of you may think mere gun crimes aren't as bad as plotting to bomb federal buildings or killing officials in government, but it's just not the case. Most of these guys only get about 5 years in prison for that, the ones sentenced for more are because they got like 500 pounds of illegal explosives and tons of illegal machine guns or whatever. They get more years for non-violent crimes (stockpiling illegal shit doesn't hurt anyone, does it? It's using it or intending to use that does) than for the actual conspiracy... So it's not that bad to plot to bomb shit or kill officials, it's really bad if you do it, but angry nutjobs who scream of killing politicians and bombing shit aren't that evil in the eyes of judges and courts out there.

Perhaps if I were to compare strictly murder cases, but I can't, there's not enough casualties. well, if they were, then I'd be in trouble as is lol, but nah. I don't know how many exactly are there, the only one I know for sure is that one militia guy that killed a state trooper, who had a warrant btw, and then died trying to shoot at a SWAT team... but thats it. A rule in statistics is that you can't do shit with only a handful of cases, you need at the very least like 20, 30, 40, 50... 50 is like the least ideal amount to do anything significantly...significant. It's bad enough as is but with a handful.. it gets worse. Well you can try doing it yourself... not hard. 1/20/20000=0.0000025=0.00025%

And I'll use a year where gun violence was low, 2004:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/guncrimetab.htm
338,587 non-lethal+lethal gun crimes in robberies/aggravated assault/murder in 2004
(10,650 lethal)

http://www.census.gov/popest/states/NST-ann-est2005.html
296,410,404 population estimate in 2004

338,587/296,410,404 = 0.001142291 = .1142%
0.1142% of the U.S. population is indicted of gun crimes, per year.
(10650/296410404=0.00003593= 0.003593% murderers..)

Also I'm assuming that for each crime case theres only one culprit, there could be more but I'm missing on that juicy data. I'm comparing militia members indicted of violence or conspiring violent plots, to gun violence cases. Like, I'm getting the highest rate for the militia, and the lowest for the control group... just trying to be fair since this whole thing is biased already.

So compared to the 0.01% from the militia, the American population is a much more dangerous group, with a 0.1142% rate to gun violence crimes.
( 0.003593% is also > 0.00025%)

So the American people are like ten times more likely to shoot others? uhh probably not... But I propose we wiretap everyone in the country to address this issue! You can't have that many criminals out there planning to commit armed burglary, assault and murder...

Hehe, you can skew this in so many ways... but one thing the results show is that you can't prove either way. At best it would show a negative correlation with the few cases that exist today, but thats still iffy. Yeah, I just spent an hour doing useless crap! So there is no statistical evidence that militia members are any more prone to gun violence than any other group, or as compared to the common folks. Point is, if you think that they should be profiled, you're deciding that on a purely moral or social standpoint

The DHS could probably do something like this though, or I don't know, maybe they already did, but didn't like the results so it wasn't published? Ohhh, conspiracy! ... Maybe it's just because, like I said, there's not enough militia members killing people and bombing shit to make a statistic out of (too much room for deviation)... but wouldn't that be evidence in itself that they're not a threat? I mean, if they can't be proven guilty, aren't they innocent?

The closest thing to a statistical study I've seen was this but as always they equate militias with racist and separatist groups to inflate their numbers...
http://www.orau.gov/DHSsummit/presentations/March17/Panel7/Freilich-Chermak_Mar17.pdf

I've said my point of view before but I'll just say it again if anyone cares. Militia groups are probably the most responsible group of gun owners there is. They know history very well, they know what guns meant to the founders of this country, and what firearms should be used for. They also know better than anyone that the true value of bearing arms is not even expressed by it's use, but by simply having them; if you have a gun, and the criminals, ill-intended people know that you do, they won't try to mess with you. A tyrannical government can be stopped just by having a well armed population, no blood must ever be shed. If you're well defended, then no attack is ever going to happen. The purpose of guns are to defend, never to attack, and most militia groups today stamp that idea in their mission statements, while getting rid of nutty members who may also be agent provocateurs or paid informants, stirring shit up and trying to smear the cause...

If anyone is dangerous here it's got to be corruption in government, because they alter the very fabric of law we rely on. Low level criminals and retarded provocateurs come and go but the crimes against the constitution are permanent and almost never reversed. Once the people give up their liberties in one area, they don't get it back 90% of the time in this Republic.

I'm against profiling period but, if you're going to support profiling, please don't mix militia groups with racist or separatist groups. I hate seeing that. It's such an overused fallacy and guilt by association. Some militia group members may be white supremacists or whatever, but that doesn't matter. Anyone really can join militia groups, no problem, as 90% are not strictly religious, but constitutionalists mainly. Look at the groups' founding intent, and their activities before you judge them.

As I attempted to demonstrate, there is no statistical evidence that militia groups are any more violent than the general population. If you got a problem with people swearing to defend the law and constitution with their guns, well, that's strictly your opinion, and it's completely debatable whether you think they should exist or not. Going beyond that dilemma, do you think they deserve to be tracked by federal intelligence agencies, called extremists, and being associated with "right-wing extremist" groups that have completely unrelated founding purposes? The militias are completely legal, unoffensive, and non-violent organizations. It's like boy scouts for adults, rofl.

And beyond militias, you think it's right for the government to assume libertarians, constitutionalists, gun owners, are militia or "right-wing extremism group" members? Think for yourself!

Resuming this whole post in one paragraph, I will compile a list to get better numbers, but overall there's no evidence that Militia members are violent. Yes there's been a handful of nuts that shot and maybe bombed stuff (idk exactly, I only went up to 2001 atm...), a couple dozen (at most imo) who were indicted of conspiracy to violence, but thats it. It's far from statistical evidence even if you consider all cases to be deadly serious. If I were to compare the militia groups with other "more" violent groups then maybe I could make a stronger case but for now this is what I got. More to come if anyone (L) shows interest. Holy crap, this post took like 3 hours to type.
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-13 02:50:41
June 13 2009 02:32 GMT
#246
Most go like this:
Agent provocateur joins or contacts the militia group or key members thereof.
Agent tries to stir up shit.
Agent offers to provide illegal supplies, and if they accept it, bam, raided, charged.
Court acquits involved members of conspiracy because its so retarded, but still convicts them of ~10 years for having the illegal shit, plus maybe some other illegal shit found in the raid.

Sometimes its like this.
Agent provocateur contacts militia members saying they'd pay $$$ for bombs, illegal weapons, etc. posing as a rightist or terrorist group member
Militia member gets the shit, sells him
Arrest, indict.
This one is a little bit more "fair" but it's weak evidence that they were going to do anything with the weapons/bombs. They made use of this strategy once some laws against terrorist aids were passed in 1994 or around that time. IMO the idiots were just playing around with them and got punk'd.
1) Agent joins a group and offers to buy illegal weapons and they accept. Group is liable for having accepted to buy illegal weaponry. The legal system can't charge them for anything else likely because of a lack of evidence, but common sense indicates that they bought them with the intention of using them; this type of presumption is used in a number of different offences and isn't recognized here because of legal protection in the states. The result in nearly every other western country would have been a far harsher sentence.

2) Militia members acting as fucking arms dealers to extremist groups within the country is a 'bit' more fair?

Wow, you need to brush up on your police work if you think this is extreme. This isn't even remotely close to entrapment, its standard shit.

Next: lets look at your numbers:
First off, you ignore the 2001-2009 statistics, despite the fact that the report specifically points to the fact that after the initial flareup of the militia movement it has been quiet until their numbers surged recently. Basically there have been a number of periods of high militia activity, but you've decided to ignore the more relevant recent one who's timeline is actually outlined in the report, but include a large portion of the inter-period years. More accurate would be to pick the rate of offences during comparable years, or to index the militia crime rate to the actual size of the militias, and get accurate numbers for those, which you don't have.

Second; your research on the total number of incidents is woefully inaccurate. First off, there's the amount of incidents which don't get reported to courts for tallying, which is fairly high when it comes to rape and aggravated assault (not so much with murder). Violent crimes, because of this, are underreported in general. Rape and aggravated assault aren't really what the report was getting at, so drop those numbers and work with the population v murders ratio (but we'll actually need to work with the population v bomb plot ratio, as you'll see soon, but numbers on that are, it seems, nearly trivial for the population at large. That's not good for your position, as we'll see later). Second your ability to search is horrendous, as I will show below. Third, someone needs to actually present evidence that the killer was part of a militia and it has to be entered into the register for it to be recorded in the case, which rarely happens because people rarely admit shit like that when in the middle of a murder trial. I have very limited searching ability from my Canadian legal service providers, but just on a cursory examination of the incidence of militia activity in the last 4 years in court, I've found militia members blocking state legislature representatives from entering the legislature, multiple murders (8 but some are being appealed so i don't want to give a final number) including a daughter involved in the murder of her mother within the first 20 cases I looked at. By the fact that I don't have access to the state supreme cases when I find appeal cases, I know my provider really doesn't have a comprehensive list so the numbers are likely higher (and subject to change as appeals happen).

What's more, and I find this interesting, not all of the murder cases are solely murder cases, there's even a case involving militia members trying to get a fucking trooper killed by trading smuggled drugs for the hit.

I think the highlight of my search was finding a case in which Smith and Wesson was successfully sued in tort for nuisance because a small town had a ridiculous amount of handgun murders in the span of 2 years. I should probably go back and read the full decision later.

Additionally, you remove a number of militia sources from your search: Aryan nation militia numbers are excluded, constitutional militia members who are ferverently Christian are omitted from your numbers, you remove conspiracy and explosives charges from the numbers. Every successful averted attack doesn't count in your numbers because it never bothers getting there. You also didn't quite read the report well, because if you read the text in the paragraphs and not just the bullet points, you'd be able to pick up quite a bit more than 1 murder on law enforcement officials.

Let me break this down to you:

A bomb plot, of which you must have noted there have been many, is worth substantially 'more' than a single murder or an incidence of domestic abuse, seeing as the report alone lists 9 cases in which explosives linked with intent to use them, or bomb plots that's not an insignificant number. The report lists 18 interesting militia 'events', but also references a huge amount of other ones. Lets be charitable. Lets ignore the compound shootings. Lets ignore the 60 or so uncovered plots not mentioned. That's cool. Even if you use the 100k number that you made up, 1 in 10,000 people are planning.. wait, no, that was the number of plots.

Comparing people: Even if we drop out a number of people due to a strict interpretation of the term 'bomb', there are still THIRTY THREE people mentioned in this report alone. These are people who have been directly connected to militias during investigation; this is relevant as pointed out above.

Say you're still using that 100k number, we now have a bomb rate of .00033/11 years. (well, + the backround rate for militia members who turned out to bomb something for reasons unrelated to militia activity (ie, the nutjob rate). This would be the control, but I can't find any numbers on the rate of uncovered and successful bomb plots in the states, and the relative frequency of bombings and news about bombings is low enough that i'll assume its close to zero, so this will underestimate on that point, but that's okay)

Want to find out how many bomb plots there would be if all of america was that bomb happy?

9,000. For every 2 murders, someone would bomb something.

Ah, but I'm being charitable again. I included those years the report said weren't really hotbeds of militia activity and I obviously ignored the vast majority of plots: this is simply the 'go see list' version. Say I pick a hotspot mentioned by the report, the 1995-1996 area in which the oklahoma city and atlantic city bombings took place. 24 people there alone. That gives us a 0.288% rate. Oh. Shit.

Now here's the good part. Want to know how many people would be involved in these activities if the average populance was that bomb happy?

864 000.

A militia member during those two years was 27.7 times more likely to be involved in a bomb plot when compared with an average citizen's likelihood to have committed a murder. (Well, actually, not just an average citizen who doesn't fall into a high risk group. This includes all groups, which we'll see is another underestimation).

Say the average bomb plot has 4-5 people. That leaves you with 172,800 to 216,000 bomb plots per year.

Moreover, in a docket or case filing, unless there's a conspiracy which links the militia itself to the crime, which is unlikely for large public militias (as, again, is noted within the report you've now read), it will not be recorded as such. So even with this absurdly lucrative profiling ground, the actual numbers are actually HIGHER.

If you want to ignore all of the above, look at your analysis and remember that you're ignoring the backround .114% crime rate; you're assuming that a milita member who's involved in a domestic dispute and shoots his wife will be labeled as a militia member for the court proceedings. Note how all of the reported incidences use militia activity as evidence because its relevant. Shooting a police officer when you think the government's corrupt? 1+1=2. Shooting your wife when you think you're protecting the constitution? Err, that isn't evidence at all. You're also not factoring out other high risk groups and adjusting for social conditions. In my very preliminary analysis, I found that I can't even measure the amount of mafia or hard drug abuse related murders because the numbers are just too high to pull out docket and case numbers. Those are groups which are obviously watched, so you need to remove them and others to determine the true backround crime rate, then see if the militia has a significant variance above that. THEN you can adjust for socioeconomic backround. If you assume that the average person who is in a militia by socioeconomic backround (removing other high risk affiliations from the murder rate for that group) is 80% of the militia rate, you compare (your quoted .1% + .08% / .08%) which means militia members are more than 2 times as likely to kill when compared with an 'average joe'.

This is why science likes controls for experiments. But that above control is not 100% solid either. There's a LOT of statistics that's being avoided here, mostly because I just can't find the numbers.

So I'm all like "k, he doesn't understand statistics" and I hit:
And beyond militias, you think it's right for the government to assume libertarians, constitutionalists, gun owners, are militia or "right-wing extremism group" members? Think for yourself!

Which makes me believe you didn't read the fucking report again besides for the bullet points.

There's no problem with people trying to defend the law. Its when people bomb federal buildings because they think they ARE the law that people can agree this group should be looked at. I really don't need you to tell me how militias fit into the founding fathers vision of how america should work. I'm pretty sure everyone understands the rationale after twenty years of gun control debates.
The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
Yurebis
Profile Joined January 2009
United States1452 Posts
June 13 2009 16:06 GMT
#247
My research does suck, I'd love to have better (other, lol) sources besides google, maybe you could give me some links?? via PM if you don't like to post them.. pleeease?

I had stopped at 2001 because my comp' crashed, I swear to God lol, I had tons of links unsaved too. Since you responded I'll go ahead and get them all again and show you why I think most of them are BS. I have no problem reading the same stuff twice, it's just frustrating but I'll do it. Would you count people who were acquitted of conspiracy charges as people who would use their illegal bombs for evil? Because really, think about it, they get 10 or less years, get back, they could still try to wreak havoc in other ways, but they don't, they don't because they weren't trying in the first place. The charges were acquitted, the jury judged he wasn't conspiring to bomb anything, and its like that on at the very least half the cases.

Sure they're still guilty of having the bombs and illegal weapons, and they're indicted for it, but just think, this stops being a real investigation, intervention whatever you wanna call it, when the COP is the one supplying the bombs! It's just ridiculous in my mind even though it's legal. They wouldn't have the bombs in the first place so all it's demonstrated by these stupid raids is that people are dumb enough to fall for it. It would never have happened without the provocateur, if it did, then there would be at least... one? real bombing by militia, because the feds can't possibly track them all and bust them all before it happens.

And you're absolutely right that militia members may be culprits in other crimes where their affiliation doesn't matter so it doesn't get mentioned, but we gotta work with what we have, I don't know where you got those 8 murders but certainly if thats true then I'd really want to see the source because I'd concede right away that it's not unjustifiable to profile militia members... (I'd still think it's wrong but hey, lots of things that are wrong are also legal in this gov't)

It's not fair to use the waco/ruby ridge/OK bombings (if that's what you're talking about the other cases in the MIAC?) IMO because they weren't militia members, maybe sympathizers, but they were on their own. if you include them then you may have to name it as a new control group, like... "people with guns & angry at the gov't", you'd certainly get positive correlations with that though. I'm defending militia here! Plus McVeigh was a nut and possibly provocateur'd but thats beyond the point!

Anyway let me (re)do my homework now...
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Yurebis
Profile Joined January 2009
United States1452 Posts
June 13 2009 17:20 GMT
#248
I just realized i was using indicted all this time when I meant convicted. kill me.
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
June 13 2009 17:41 GMT
#249
Get a subscription to an online legal service. I can't give you more advice than that because if you aren't in academia you need to pay through your NOSE (lol 20$-260$ PER SEARCH? Lol guess that's why billable hours cost so much). That's why I can't get good numbers, because I simply don't have access to complete databases and I'm not willing to fork out hundreds of dollars to make searches in databases that I'm not even sure have the information. Google isn't a comprehensive research tool either; if it was, people wouldn't need to refer to these databases.

Barring having access to all dockets/cases or social science/juridical research on the rate of militia links to militia members in criminal trials you're pretty much dead in the water statistically (and such research would basically involve getting the names of a statistically relevant sample of militia members, then screening for their base rate of violent crime offences or some other comparable crime, then comparing that to the rate of identification of cases which bring militia in as evidence). The most official, and likely most accurate raw source you're going to get are the studies and numbers put up at the Bureau of Justice Statistics (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/) and I looked, the have very little on the backround incidence of explosives charges or militia identification, so there goes that.

And for your absolutely ridiculous statements like :

Sure they're still guilty of having the bombs and illegal weapons, and they're indicted for it, but just think, this stops being a real investigation, intervention whatever you wanna call it, when the COP is the one supplying the bombs!
Do you think cops mosey around asking people if they want to buy illegal bombs? Do you think that's the way police operations work? No. The aim of the undercover work is to put people in jail BEFORE they bomb something, so their aim can't be to have the 'real investigation' when the fuse is lit because at the point where you have prima facie evidence of the guy trying to bomb a federal police building, the bomb is already ticking. (and lol, there have been multiple successful bombings, not one.)

I mean, if your idea of good police work is to follow a guy with a bomb and cuff him while the fuse is lit, that's somewhat ridiculous.

Additionally, I didn't even USE waco/ridge/McVeigh's bombings. Waco and Ridge were shootouts (and feel free to include the hundred people there in your gun offences numbers for cop killing. Oh shit. Bad news. But wait, you don't even consider them militia members despite the fact that they're a larged armed group of civilians who operated based defending their conception of the law. I guess if a militia is called "mountain boys" they would just be boys, not militia members right?), and i estimated that where numbers weren't given, only 3 members of the militia were involved, which is under the overall report average of 4-5 per. I fucking padded the stats in your favor at EVERY turn.

The simple point is that the proper numbers don't exist, but there's an OBVIOUS propensity towards bombing shit and getting into armed conflicts with the state. Look at your OWN statements here:

-"If anyone is dangerous here it's got to be corruption in government, because they alter the very fabric of law we rely on"

Government hijacked the law. I am the law. Fuck you policeman acting on corrupt government, I'm gonna shoot you.

-"God forbid people will themselves to protect what's right, right?
The question here is, whose interpretation of the constitution you trust, the government's which allow the DHS, NSA, CIA to spy whoever they want, or the libertarians' and gun owners'?"

Can't trust government, must trust civilian gun owners.

Etc.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with the militia movement's aims, the entire purpose, even within the constitutional framework of the militia is to be directly opposed to the federal government. It is their DUTY to go and march on Washington D.C. or engage in armed revolution if tyranny takes over because that's the entire purpose of the militia as a check on the government. Obviously the vast majority of people in the militia movement would simply prefer a political in-system solution, but its obvious that events like planned bombings/plots on federal judges/etc will take place if the entire intellectual framework for these organizations is that they are a bulwark against the government.

Essentially you need to make the argument that neutering the police's ability to look into plots like this is a fair trade for not hurting the public image (oh wait, it wasn't a public report anyways, so until it was leaked and screamed about by libertarian bloggers it wouldn't have done that anyways) of militias. Seeing as police generally DO profile, you need a powerful arguement as to why. In the case of race based profiling, for instance, there was a very broad and overarching premise that profiling was part of a huge network of race based discrimination. In the case of profiling at airports by appearance after the 9/11 scare, intra-united states Islamic groups raised powerful arguments that they were being punished exclusively for the sins of those from abroad. What's the counter argument here, and why is it on the scale of religious and race based discrimination?

I just realized i was using indicted all this time when I meant convicted. kill me.
I noticed.
The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
Yurebis
Profile Joined January 2009
United States1452 Posts
June 13 2009 19:07 GMT
#250
I'm not a lawyer, don't ever want to be one, not a legal enthusiast either, so I'm not that interested in paying for those... but this one looks good for federal cases http://law.justia.com/

It's not a bad method to go undercover and offer to sell/buy illegal weapons, I'm just saying it doesn't prove that militias are as much of a threat as if they really were bombing, real cases make better evidence than raids and dealings because you can't prove intent that easily.

Also militia men adhere by the law of the land even though they know the government tinkered with it. They don't do anything that would get them a guilty verdict in court, that wold be silly. They may not respect the feds but that doesn't mean they won't play by the rules. The vast majority (99%) do and the ones that don't mostly just went too far in their armaments but aren't violent.

I'm not saying you can't trust the government, you can trust whoever you like, trust in totalitarianism for all I care, I'm saying that it would be best if people didn't because that way they wouldn't be able to get away with so many lies. And you absolutely shouldn't blame the people who doubt them and arm themselves because it's completely legal and healthy to have a doubting population, there's better oversight and less corruption. Did I also say I'm going to bomb a fed building or kill cops? No I'm not retarded, I have my head screwed on straight, I'd never initiate violence towards anyone, and militia members are the same, they would never be the ones to shoot first.

I'm not going to get into that again but there's studies (of which I will say straight away I haven't read, and you can doubt if you like) that say towns and cities with well-armed people have less crimes because criminals are more afraid of busting peoples homes and such.

It's not an obvious inference to say militia members are violent, you need data to back it up... and so far I've seen none! I'll show you what I have so far but I'm still going:

+ Show Spoiler +
July 28, 1995
Antigovernment extremist Charles Ray Polk is arrested after trying to purchase a machine gun from an undercover police officer, and is later indicted by a federal grand jury for plotting to blow up the Internal Revenue Service building in Austin, Texas. At the time of his arrest, Polk is trying to purchase plastic explosives to add to the already huge arsenal he's amassed. Polk is sentenced to almost 21 years in federal prison, with a projected release date in 2009.
-
not a militia member


October 9, 1995
Saboteurs derail an Amtrak passenger train near Hyder, Ariz., killing one person and injuring scores of others. An antigovernment message, signed by the "Sons of Gestapo," is left behind. The perpetrators remain at large.
-
since perpetrators are unknown, can't say they were militia?


November 9, 1995
Oklahoma Constitutional Militia leader Willie Ray Lampley, his wife Cecilia and another man, John Dare Baird, are arrested as they prepare explosives to bomb numerous targets, including the Southern Poverty Law Center, gay bars and abortion clinics. The three, along with another suspect arrested later, are sentenced to terms of up to 11 years in 1996. An appeals court upholds Lampley's sentence the following year. Baird is released in August 2004, while Ray Lampley — who wrote letters from prison urging others to violence — is slated to be freed in January 2006.
-
rofl SPLC.
http://monitor.net/monitor/9607a/lampleysentence.html
http://www.albionmonitor.net/12-3-95/lampley.html
http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/127/1231/571029/
http://books.google.com/books?id=p1NGyz43INkC&pg=PA162&lpg=PA162&dq=Willie Ray Lampley&source=bl&ots=Rc4wIfNUAq&sig=kYPSO_rM9QPP_EtVlGjaTAjniG0&hl=en&ei=QtEzSouNNIGMtgfBkdi7CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6
^ this book is so good, I'm buying an used one for $5
Lampley may be a nut alright...but he's a more of a religious nut than an anti-govt nut! the other two were just dragged along by him too... I won't deny the indictments however.

3 militans guilty of conspiracy to bomb shit.


December 18, 1995
An Internal Revenue Service (IRS) employee discovers a plastic drum packed with ammonium nitrate and fuel oil in a parking lot behind the IRS building in Reno, Nev. The device failed to explode a day earlier when a three-foot fuse went out prematurely. Ten days later, tax protester Joseph Martin Bailie is arrested. Bailie is eventually sentenced to 36 years in federal prison.
-
not a militia member


January 18, 1996
Peter Kevin Langan, the pseudonymous "Commander Pedro" who leads the underground Aryan Republican Army, is arrested after a shootout with the FBI in Ohio. Along with six other suspects arrested around the same time, Langan is charged in connection with a string of 22 bank robberies in seven Midwestern states between 1994 and 1996. After pleading guilty and agreeing to testify, conspirator Richard Guthrie commits suicide in his cell. Two others, Kevin McCarthy and Scott Stedeford, enter plea bargains and do testify against their co-conspirators. Eventually, Mark Thomas, a leading neo-Nazi in Pennsylvania, pleads guilty for his role in helping organize the robberies and agrees to testify against Langan and other gang members. Shawn Kenny, another suspect, becomes a federal informant. Langan is sentenced to a life term in one case, plus 55 years in another. Thomas is sentenced to eight years in prison, and is released in early 2004.
-
this is a racist militia, not a constitutional militia, different purposes, defending different things. he's "defending" his bloodline, I'm defeding the law and constitution. very different. so yeah sue me, this is out of my list.


April 11, 1996
Antigovernment activist Ray Hamblin is charged with illegal possession of explosives after authorities find 460 pounds of the high explosive Tovex, 746 pounds of ANFO blasting agent and 15 homemade hand grenades on his property in Hood River, Ore. Hamblin is sentenced to almost four years in federal prison, and is released in March 2000.
-
not a militia member


April 12, 1996
Apparently inspired by his reading of a neo-Nazi tract, Larry Wayne Shoemake kills one black man and wounds seven other people, including a reporter, during a racist shooting spree in a black neighborhood in Jackson, Miss. As police close in on the abandoned restaurant he is shooting from, Shoemake, who is white, sets the restaurant on fire and kills himself. A search of his home finds references to "Separation or Annihilation," an essay on race relations by National Alliance leader William Pierce, along with an arsenal of weapons that includes 17 long guns, 20,000 rounds of ammunition, several knives and countless military manuals.
-
damn... wiretap every single white man with a gun imo.


April 26, 1996
Two leaders of the Militia-at-Large of the Republic of Georgia, Robert Edward Starr iii and William James McCranie Jr., are charged with manufacturing shrapnel bombs for distribution to militia members. Later in the year, they are sentenced on explosives charges to terms of up to eight years. Another Militia-at-Large member, accused of training a team to assassinate politicians, is later convicted of conspiracy. Starr is released from prison in 2003, while McCranie gets out in 2001. The last member, Troy Allen Kayser (alias Troy Spain), draws six years in prison and is released in early 2002.
-
oh yeah this was the one with forged evidence. maybe.
http://www.constitution.org/piml/96051003.txt
http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia68.html
http://www.injusticeline.com/gabomb.html
Agent Stephen W. Gillis of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms also acknowledged that Starr's co-defendant, William James "Jimmy" McCranie, had said, "I don't want to know anything about it" and walked away when the government's informant was talking about building bombs.
http://www.adl.org/mwd/oldnew3.asp

All the solid evidence from the raid were 10 burried pipe bombs and "bomb making materials" which were 2 bags of legally obtainable chemicals. They had one tape of Starr saying the day before on a radio show that the FBI was on his ass. testimony from secret informants + Gillis. that's all they got. They couldn't define a purpose for the bombs, couldn't define a conspiracy to bomb anything but their own lawns? So yeah.. make your own conclusions

Bottom line is they weren't convicted of conspiracy to kill/bomb/hurt no one. They were convicted for having the stupid bombs and conspiracy to make more based on the word of the stupid informants + Gillis

nonviolent verdict.


July 1, 1996
Twelve members of an Arizona militia group called the Viper Team are arrested on federal conspiracy, weapons and explosive charges after allegedly surveilling and videotaping government buildings as potential targets. All 12 plead guilty or are convicted of various charges, drawing sentences of up to nine years in prison. The plot participants are all released in coming years, with Gary Curds Baer, who drew the heaviest sentence, freed in May 2004.
-
http://www.copi.com/articles/viper.html
damn provocateurs.
no violent conspiracy indiction. funny that when it's a conspiracy to make illegal bombs, then don't say it, when it's conspiracy to blow shit up, they say it. why not include the damn exact charge in the blurb to make my job easier, lol...
really as I was reading the indictments I was like "wow, awesome" lol it may be illegal and dangerous to make these weapons and bombs but it doesn't mean they're terrorists, they're just rednecks having fun. that doesn't mean they shouldn't be charged and tried, but it's not all you make it to be, ok?

nonviolent verdict


July 27, 1996
A nail-packed bomb goes off at the Atlanta Olympics, which is seen by many extremists as part of a Satanic "New World Order," killing one person and injuring more than 100 others. Investigators will later conclude the attack is linked to 1997-1998 bombings of an Atlanta-area abortion clinic, an Atlanta gay bar and a Birmingham, Ala., abortion facility. Suspect Eric Robert Rudolph — a reclusive North Carolina man tied to the anti-Semitic Christian Identity theology — flees into the woods of his native state after he is identified in early 1998 as a suspect in the Birmingham attack, and is only captured five years later. Eventually, he pleads guilty to all of the attacks attributed to him in exchange for life without parole.
-
loner


July 29, 1996
Washington State Militia leader John Pitner and seven others are arrested on weapons and explosives charges in connection with a plot to build pipe bombs for a confrontation with the federal government. Pitner and four others are convicted on weapons charges, while conspiracy charges against all eight end in a mistrial. Pitner is later retried on that charge, convicted and sentenced to four years in prison. He is freed from prison in 2001.
-
http://www.constitution.org/abus/pitner.htm <-index with tons of broken links..
http://proliberty.com/observer/prt0298a.htm <-haha can't use that pocket constitution
http://www.njmilitia.org/apr98.htm
http://www.worldfreeinternet.net/news/nws35.htm <-nice
http://www.publicgood.org/reports/indict.html
this is too confusing. mistrials retrials asdasfdas
http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/307/1178/521877/
does this mean:
"Pitner's conviction of possession of a machine gun, resulting from his first trial, is affirmed. Pitner's conviction of conspiracy, resulting from his second trial, is reversed and remanded with instructions to dismiss the indictment."
that his conviction of conspiracy got retracted? (after he already spent all those years in jail with no bail lol)

correct me if i'm wrong but i think this is another nonviolent, no conspiracy verdict


October 8, 1996
Three "Phineas Priests" — racist and anti-Semitic Christian Identity terrorists who feel they've been called by God to undertake violent attacks — are charged in connection with two bank robberies and bombings at the two banks, a Spokane newspaper and a Planned Parenthood office. Charles Barbee, Robert Berry and Jay Merrell are eventually convicted and sentenced to life terms. Brian Ratigan, a fourth member of the group arrested separately, draws a 55-year term.
-
damn.


October 11, 1996
Seven members of the Mountaineer Militia are arrested in a plot to blow up the FBI's national fingerprint records center, where 1,000 people work, in West Virginia. In 1998, leader Floyd "Ray" Looker is sentenced to 18 years in prison. Two other defendants are sentenced on explosives charges and a third draws a year in prison for providing blueprints of the FBI facility to Looker, who then sold them to a government informant who was posing as a terrorist.
-
http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia70.html
http://pacer.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinion.pdf/027661.U.pdf
Looker is guilty of conspiring with terrorists.. fine, the FBI sure are the terrorists lol
the other guys, not so much

1 "violent" verdict

I got 4 members guilty of conspiracy to bomb/kill so far. Tbh should be only 2 because Willie Ray Lampley was the main one who dragged along his wife and friend with him but w/e
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
June 14 2009 02:02 GMT
#251
They don't do anything that would get them a guilty verdict in court, that wold be silly
Besides have a higher incidence of buying bombs and planning to use them.

I'm pretty much done here. Lets examine the thread's revival:

1) Two right wing extremists' actions are high profile news. Someone says 'wow, about that DHS report, coincidence?'. Fox news, of all possible institutions, agrees.

2) You pop in saying this report is clearly an effort discredit militias; obviously no one would release a report about a possible threat without trying to also commit slander.

3) You defend this paranoid position by repeating, verbatim, a libertarian blog about a second report, saying that its proof that someone's trying to fuck with the militia movement and that the government is corrupt.

4) You're put into a corner and confess to not actually knowing what the fuck you're talking about.

5) I laugh in my head.

6) You put up a horrendous 'statistical' analysis which is the equivalent of you going "hey 6+6=18. The tops of the sixes form half of the one, and the bottoms form the circles for the 8. QED".

7) I demolish your statistical analysis.

8) You resort, again, to pretending a conviction on conspiracy charges doesn't matter because the FBI went undercover. You ignore the fact that people have been convicted of fucking bomb plots and pretend the offences aren't worthy of profiling and aren't violent. I can't prove you were going to use the pipe bombs, but I'm sure they were just to decorate your lawn; militia wouldn't be mean to anyone ^_^. I dont care if they're 'more religious crazy than anti govt crazy' either, because that wasn't a distinction the original DHS report or the MIAC report made. It was one YOU made.


Also, Justia does not have lists of superior/supreme state court case information. That's the information I'm missing; If the case went into arbitration or wasn't appealed its invisible to me. Ie. There's no way for me to compile accurate statistics without a statistically representative sample of militia member's names and a complete list of dockets/trials/appeals.
The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
Yurebis
Profile Joined January 2009
United States1452 Posts
June 14 2009 02:42 GMT
#252
What no, that's not what I'm doing right now, I'm reading through all cases from that SPLC site and seeing which ones are really militia members (I'm including ex-members too) and which ones also got convicted for it. It's not these cases that don't matter, it's those that they were acquitted of conspiracy. The remark I made about the FBI/BATF techniques was just an observation for those who know how corrupt these guys can be. You absolutely won't believe anything that comes from my mouth anymore...

Having bombs don't mean you're going to blow up other people's property or public buildings, some folks like blowing stuff up for the fun of it you know, you can't infer that a guy was going to use it for evil just because he has it... need more evidence than that, and in many of these cases you'll see that the jury isn't that easily convinced (sometimes they are though...)

I had to stop for a while so I'm not done but so far... I got to about where I was before.

+ Show Spoiler +
July 28, 1995
Antigovernment extremist Charles Ray Polk is arrested after trying to purchase a machine gun from an undercover police officer, and is later indicted by a federal grand jury for plotting to blow up the Internal Revenue Service building in Austin, Texas. At the time of his arrest, Polk is trying to purchase plastic explosives to add to the already huge arsenal he's amassed. Polk is sentenced to almost 21 years in federal prison, with a projected release date in 2009.
-
not a militia member


October 9, 1995
Saboteurs derail an Amtrak passenger train near Hyder, Ariz., killing one person and injuring scores of others. An antigovernment message, signed by the "Sons of Gestapo," is left behind. The perpetrators remain at large.
-
since perpetrators are unknown, can't say they were militia?


November 9, 1995
Oklahoma Constitutional Militia leader Willie Ray Lampley, his wife Cecilia and another man, John Dare Baird, are arrested as they prepare explosives to bomb numerous targets, including the Southern Poverty Law Center, gay bars and abortion clinics. The three, along with another suspect arrested later, are sentenced to terms of up to 11 years in 1996. An appeals court upholds Lampley's sentence the following year. Baird is released in August 2004, while Ray Lampley — who wrote letters from prison urging others to violence — is slated to be freed in January 2006.
-
rofl SPLC.
http://monitor.net/monitor/9607a/lampleysentence.html
http://www.albionmonitor.net/12-3-95/lampley.html
http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/127/1231/571029/
http://books.google.com/books?id=p1NGyz43INkC&pg=PA162&lpg=PA162&dq=Willie Ray Lampley&source=bl&ots=Rc4wIfNUAq&sig=kYPSO_rM9QPP_EtVlGjaTAjniG0&hl=en&ei=QtEzSouNNIGMtgfBkdi7CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6
^ this book is so good, I'm buying an used one for $5
Lampley may be a nut alright...but he's a more of a religious nut than an anti-govt nut! the other two were just dragged along by him too... I won't deny the indictments however.

3 militants guilty of conspiracy to bomb shit.


December 18, 1995
An Internal Revenue Service (IRS) employee discovers a plastic drum packed with ammonium nitrate and fuel oil in a parking lot behind the IRS building in Reno, Nev. The device failed to explode a day earlier when a three-foot fuse went out prematurely. Ten days later, tax protester Joseph Martin Bailie is arrested. Bailie is eventually sentenced to 36 years in federal prison.
-
not a militia member


January 18, 1996
Peter Kevin Langan, the pseudonymous "Commander Pedro" who leads the underground Aryan Republican Army, is arrested after a shootout with the FBI in Ohio. Along with six other suspects arrested around the same time, Langan is charged in connection with a string of 22 bank robberies in seven Midwestern states between 1994 and 1996. After pleading guilty and agreeing to testify, conspirator Richard Guthrie commits suicide in his cell. Two others, Kevin McCarthy and Scott Stedeford, enter plea bargains and do testify against their co-conspirators. Eventually, Mark Thomas, a leading neo-Nazi in Pennsylvania, pleads guilty for his role in helping organize the robberies and agrees to testify against Langan and other gang members. Shawn Kenny, another suspect, becomes a federal informant. Langan is sentenced to a life term in one case, plus 55 years in another. Thomas is sentenced to eight years in prison, and is released in early 2004.
-
this is a racist militia, not a constitutional militia, different purposes, defending different things. he's "defending" his bloodline, I'm defeding the law and constitution. very different. so yeah sue me, this is out of my list.


April 11, 1996
Antigovernment activist Ray Hamblin is charged with illegal possession of explosives after authorities find 460 pounds of the high explosive Tovex, 746 pounds of ANFO blasting agent and 15 homemade hand grenades on his property in Hood River, Ore. Hamblin is sentenced to almost four years in federal prison, and is released in March 2000.
-
not a militia member


April 12, 1996
Apparently inspired by his reading of a neo-Nazi tract, Larry Wayne Shoemake kills one black man and wounds seven other people, including a reporter, during a racist shooting spree in a black neighborhood in Jackson, Miss. As police close in on the abandoned restaurant he is shooting from, Shoemake, who is white, sets the restaurant on fire and kills himself. A search of his home finds references to "Separation or Annihilation," an essay on race relations by National Alliance leader William Pierce, along with an arsenal of weapons that includes 17 long guns, 20,000 rounds of ammunition, several knives and countless military manuals.
-
damn... wiretap every single white man with a gun IMO.


April 26, 1996
Two leaders of the Militia-at-Large of the Republic of Georgia, Robert Edward Starr iii and William James McCranie Jr., are charged with manufacturing shrapnel bombs for distribution to militia members. Later in the year, they are sentenced on explosives charges to terms of up to eight years. Another Militia-at-Large member, accused of training a team to assassinate politicians, is later convicted of conspiracy. Starr is released from prison in 2003, while McCranie gets out in 2001. The last member, Troy Allen Kayser (alias Troy Spain), draws six years in prison and is released in early 2002.
-
oh yeah this was the one with forged evidence. maybe.
http://www.constitution.org/piml/96051003.txt
http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia68.html
http://www.injusticeline.com/gabomb.html
Agent Stephen W. Gillis of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms also acknowledged that Starr's co-defendant, William James "Jimmy" McCranie, had said, "I don't want to know anything about it" and walked away when the government's informant was talking about building bombs.
http://www.adl.org/mwd/oldnew3.asp

All the solid evidence from the raid were 10 buried pipe bombs and "bomb making materials" which were 2 bags of legally obtainable chemicals. They had one tape of Starr saying the day before on a radio show that the FBI was on his ass. testimony from secret informants + Gillis. that's all they got. They couldn't define a purpose for the bombs, couldn't define a conspiracy to bomb anything but their own lawns? So yeah.. make your own conclusions

Bottom line is they weren't convicted of conspiracy to kill/bomb/hurt no one. They were convicted for having the stupid bombs and conspiracy to make more based on the word of the stupid informants + Gillis

nonviolent verdict.


July 1, 1996
Twelve members of an Arizona militia group called the Viper Team are arrested on federal conspiracy, weapons and explosive charges after allegedly surveying and videotaping government buildings as potential targets. All 12 plead guilty or are convicted of various charges, drawing sentences of up to nine years in prison. The plot participants are all released in coming years, with Gary Curds Baer, who drew the heaviest sentence, freed in May 2004.
-
http://www.copi.com/articles/viper.html
damn provocateurs.
no violent conspiracy indictment. funny that when it's a conspiracy to make illegal bombs, then don't say it, when it's conspiracy to blow shit up, they say it. why not include the damn exact charge in the blurb to make my job easier, lol...
really as I was reading the indictments I was like "wow, awesome" lol it may be illegal and dangerous to make these weapons and bombs but it doesn't mean they're terrorists, they're just rednecks having fun. that doesn't mean they shouldn't be charged and tried, but it's not all you make it to be, ok?

nonviolent verdict


July 27, 1996
A nail-packed bomb goes off at the Atlanta Olympics, which is seen by many extremists as part of a Satanic "New World Order," killing one person and injuring more than 100 others. Investigators will later conclude the attack is linked to 1997-1998 bombings of an Atlanta-area abortion clinic, an Atlanta gay bar and a Birmingham, Ala., abortion facility. Suspect Eric Robert Rudolph — a reclusive North Carolina man tied to the anti-Semitic Christian Identity theology — flees into the woods of his native state after he is identified in early 1998 as a suspect in the Birmingham attack, and is only captured five years later. Eventually, he pleads guilty to all of the attacks attributed to him in exchange for life without parole.
-
loner


July 29, 1996
Washington State Militia leader John Pitner and seven others are arrested on weapons and explosives charges in connection with a plot to build pipe bombs for a confrontation with the federal government. Pitner and four others are convicted on weapons charges, while conspiracy charges against all eight end in a mistrial. Pitner is later retried on that charge, convicted and sentenced to four years in prison. He is freed from prison in 2001.
-
http://www.constitution.org/abus/pitner.htm <-index with tons of broken links..
http://proliberty.com/observer/prt0298a.htm <-haha can't use that pocket constitution
http://www.njmilitia.org/apr98.htm
http://www.worldfreeinternet.net/news/nws35.htm <-nice
http://www.publicgood.org/reports/indict.html
this is too confusing. mistrials retrials asdasfdas
http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/307/1178/521877/
does this mean:
"Pitner's conviction of possession of a machine gun, resulting from his first trial, is affirmed. Pitner's conviction of conspiracy, resulting from his second trial, is reversed and remanded with instructions to dismiss the indictment."
that his conviction of conspiracy got retracted? (after he already spent all those years in jail with no bail lol)

correct me if i'm wrong but i think this is another nonviolent, no conspiracy verdict


October 8, 1996
Three "Phineas Priests" — racist and anti-Semitic Christian Identity terrorists who feel they've been called by God to undertake violent attacks — are charged in connection with two bank robberies and bombings at the two banks, a Spokane newspaper and a Planned Parenthood office. Charles Barbee, Robert Berry and Jay Merrell are eventually convicted and sentenced to life terms. Brian Ratigan, a fourth member of the group arrested separately, draws a 55-year term.
-
damn.


October 11, 1996
Seven members of the Mountaineer Militia are arrested in a plot to blow up the FBI's national fingerprint records center, where 1,000 people work, in West Virginia. In 1998, leader Floyd "Ray" Looker is sentenced to 18 years in prison. Two other defendants are sentenced on explosives charges and a third draws a year in prison for providing blueprints of the FBI facility to Looker, who then sold them to a government informant who was posing as a terrorist.
-
http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia70.html
http://pacer.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinion.pdf/027661.U.pdf

Looker is guilty of conspiring with terrorists.. fine, the FBI sure are the terrorists lol
the other guys, not so much

1 "violent" verdict


January 16, 1997
Two anti-personnel bombs — the second clearly designed to kill arriving law enforcement and rescue workers — explode outside an abortion clinic in Sandy Springs, Ga., a suburb of Atlanta. Seven people are injured. Letters signed by the "Army of God" claim responsibility for this attack and another, a month later, at an Atlanta gay bar. Authorities later learn that these attacks, the 1998 bombing of a Birmingham, Ala., abortion clinic and the 1996 Atlanta Olympics bombing, were all carried out by Eric Robert Rudolph, who is captured in 2003 after five years on the run. Rudolph avoids the death penalty by pleading guilty in exchange for a life sentence, but simultaneously releases a defiant statement defending his attacks.
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loner, not a militia member even though the media loves to spin it


January 22, 1997
Authorities raid the Martinton, Ill., home of former Marine Ricky Salyers, an alleged Ku Klux Klan member, discovering 35,000 rounds of heavy ammunition, armor piercing shells, smoke and tear gas grenades, live shells for grenade launchers, artillery shells and other military gear. Salyers was discharged earlier from the Marines, where he taught demolitions and sniping, after tossing a live grenade (with the pin still in) at state police officers serving him with a search warrant in 1995. Following the 1997 raid, Salyers, an alleged member of the underground Black Dawn group of extremists in the military, is sentenced to serve three years for weapons violations. He is released from prison in 2000.
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sad... but I won't count, sorry...
that "black dawn" group within the military is a white supremacist group I believe, theres little info on them


March 26, 1997
Militia activist Brendon Blasz is arrested in Kalamazoo, Mich., and charged with making pipe bombs and other illegal explosives. Prosecutors say Blasz plotted to bomb the federal building in Battle Creek, the IRS building in Portage, a Kalamazoo television station and federal armories. But they recommend leniency on his explosives conviction after Blasz renounces his antigovernment beliefs and cooperates with them. In August, he is sentenced to more than three years in federal prison. Blasz is released in early 2000.
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nonviolent verdict (wuss! lol)


April 22, 1997
Three Ku Klux Klan members are arrested in a plot to blow up a natural gas refinery outside Fort Worth, Texas, after local Klan leader Robert Spence gets cold feet and goes to the FBI. The three, along with a fourth arrested later, expected to kill a huge number of people with the blast — authorities later say as many as 30,000 might have died — which was to serve, incredibly, as a diversion for a simultaneous armored car robbery. Among the victims would have been children at a nearby school. All four plead guilty to conspiracy charges and are sentenced to terms of up to 20 years. Spence enters the Witness Protection Program. Carl Jay Waskom Jr. is released in June 2004. Shawn and Catherine Adams, a couple, are expected to be freed in 2006, and Edward Taylor Jr. in early 2007.
-
kkk

April 23, 1997
Florida police arrest Todd Vanbiber, a member of the neo-Nazi National Alliance's Tampa unit and the shadowy League of the Silent Soldier, after he accidentally sets off pipe bombs he was building, blasting shrapnel into his own face. He is accused of plotting to use the bombs on the approach to Disney World to divert attention from a planned string of bank robberies. Vanbiber pleads guilty to weapons and explosives charges and is sentenced to more than six years in federal prison. He is released in 2002. Within two years, Vanbiber is posting messages on neo-Nazi Internet sites boasting that he has built over 300 bombs successfully and only made one error, and describing mass murderer Timothy McVeigh as a hero.
-
neo-nazi


April 27, 1997
After a cache of explosives stored in a tree blows up near Yuba City, Calif., police arrest Montana Freemen supporter William Robert Goehler. Investigators looking into the blast arrest two Goehler associates, one of them a militia leader, after finding 500 pounds of petrogel explosives — enough to level three city blocks — in a motor home parked outside their residence. Six others are arrested on related charges. Goehler, with previous convictions for rape, burglary and assault, is sentenced to 25 years to life in prison.
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omg he killed a tree!?!
I can't find the verdicts on google bawwww I'm powerless
http://articles.latimes.com/1997-05-02/news/mn-54740_1_explosives-charges
http://www.sfgate.com/e/a/1999/05/23/METRO10000.dtl
ok well it's obvious this guy is messed up, rapist, stabbed his lawyer, lol, but I'm not even sure if hes a real member, it says supporter everywhere does that mean membership? I absolutely can't find the other guys so I'll assume it was just more illegal explosive devices indictments
http://www.adl.org/mwd/Calendar.asp
ok well he isn't a member, sorry, I'd love to include a nut like this guy in, but he isn't.


May 3, 1997
Antigovernment extremists set fire to the IRS office in Colorado Springs, Colo., causing $2.5 million in damage and injuring a firefighter. Federal agents later arrest five men in connection with the arson, which is conceived as a protest against the tax system. Ringleader James Cleaver, former national director of the antigovernment Sons of Liberty group, is eventually sentenced to 33 years in prison, while accomplice Jack Dowell is sentenced in a separate trial to serve 30 years. Both are ordered to pay $2.2 million in restitution. Dowell's cousin is acquitted of all charges, while two other suspects, Ronald Sherman and Thomas Shafer, plead guilty to perjury charges in connection with the case.
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Burn IRS, burn! j/k.
http://www.adl.org/learn/news/IRS_Arson.asp
this Sons of Liberty group is (was) no militia
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4191/is_20020728/ai_n10007771/
"political action group"
what an idiot... that's how you define action? burning down buildings? retard.
these kinds of people are the worst, they completely ruin what others stand for while pretending to be good people.


July 4, 1997
Militiaman Bradley Playford Glover and another heavily armed antigovernment activist are arrested before dawn near Fort Hood, in central Texas, just hours before they planned to invade the Army base and slaughter foreign troops they mistakenly believed were housed there. In the next few days, five other people are arrested in several states for their alleged roles in the plot to invade a series of military bases where the group believes United Nations forces are massing for an assault on Americans. All seven are part of a splinter group of the Third Continental Congress, a kind of militia government-in-waiting. In the end, Glover is sentenced to two years on Kansas weapons charges, to be followed by a five-year federal term in connection with the Fort Hood plot. The others draw lesser terms. Glover is released in 2003, the last of the seven to get out.
-
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=861&dat=19981030&id=NEEKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=bksDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4555,6227572
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/terror/terror99.pdf
two idiots
two violent verdicts
would be funny if UN troops were really there though, "omg, the batshit insane were right!"

2 violent verdicts


December 12, 1997
A federal grand jury in Arkansas indicts three men on racketeering charges for plotting to overthrow the government and create a whites-only Aryan People's Republic, which they intend to grow through polygamy. Chevie Kehoe, Daniel Lee and Faron Lovelace are accused of crimes in six states, including murder, kidnapping, robbery and conspiracy. Kehoe and Lee will also face state charges of murdering an Arkansas family, including an 8-year-old girl, in 1996. Kehoe ultimately receives a life sentence on that charge, while Lee is sentenced to death. Lovelace is sentenced to death for the murder of a suspected informant, although in early 2005 he will be up for resentencing because of court rulings. Kehoe's brother, Cheyne, is convicted of attempted murder during a February 1997 Ohio shootout with police and sentenced to 24 years in prison, despite his key role in helping authorities find his fugitive brother in Utah in June 1997 after the shootout. Cheyne went to the authorities after Chevie began talking about murdering their parents and showing sexual interest in Cheyne's wife.
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damn


January 29, 1998
An off-duty police officer is killed and a nurse terribly maimed when a nail-packed, remote-control bomb explodes outside a Birmingham, Ala., abortion facility, the New Woman All Women clinic. Letters to media outlets and officials claim responsibility in the name of the "Army of God," the same entity that took credit for the bombings of a clinic and a gay bar in the Atlanta area. The attack also will be linked to the fatal 1996 bombing of the Atlanta Olympics. Eric Robert Rudolph, a loner from North Carolina, is first identified as a suspect when witnesses spot his pickup truck fleeing the Birmingham bombing. But he is not caught until 2003. He ultimately pleads guilty to all four attacks in exchange for a life sentence.
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loner


February 23, 1998
Three men with links to a Ku Klux Klan group are arrested near East St. Louis, Ill., on weapons charges. The three, along with three other men arrested later, had formed a group called The New Order, patterned on a 1980s terror group called The Order (a.k.a. the Silent Brotherhood) that carried out assassinations and armored car heists. New Order members plotted to assassinate a federal judge and civil rights lawyer Morris Dees, blow up the Southern Poverty Law Center that Dees co-founded and other buildings, poison water supplies and rob banks. In the end, all six plead guilty or are convicted of weapons charges, drawing terms of up to seven years in federal prison. Wallace Weicherding, who came to a 1997 Dees speech with a concealed gun but turned back rather than pass through a metal detector, is freed in 2003. New Order leader Dennis McGiffen is released in July 2004, the last of the six to regain his freedom.
-
kkk


March 18, 1998
Three members of the North American Militia of Southwestern Michigan are arrested on firearms and other charges. Prosecutors say the men conspired to bomb federal buildings, a Kalamazoo television station and an interstate highway interchange, kill federal agents, assassinate politicians and attack aircraft at a National Guard base — attacks that were all to be funded by marijuana sales. The group's leader, Ken Carter, is a self-described member of the neo-Nazi Aryan Nations. Carter pleads guilty, testifies against his former comrades, and is sentenced to five years in prison. The others, Randy Graham and Bradford Metcalf, go to trial and are ultimately handed sentences of 40 and 55 years, respectively. Carter is released from prison in 2002.
-
looks ugly
http://www.newcomm.org/content/view/1765/93/
http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia6.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia14.html
http://www.pub.umich.edu/daily/1998/nov/11-19-98/news/news11.html
all three guilty. not much to say.

unless... yes! nutty blogger for the rescue!
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/duffy104.html
so carter was given a 5 year plea bargain with a bonus surgery for his "emphysema", and took it. he testified bullshit against his dear comrades! along with the fed's testimony, they can make up whatever they want and it would be strong cross-referenced evidence. Metcalf didn't want a lawyer so he's fucked. The overt act apparently was having illegal machine guns, which this guy claims weren't machine guns but the jury was made to think they were by the prosecutor. Fucking Carter died 6 months after getting out cuz of a lung disease anyway, couldn't he not have falsely testified? damnit man.

Well, not worth going there. I'll just pretend the verdicts and BATF and FBI are cool and honest folks with no agenda but the well-being of the population.

3 violent verdicts.


May 29, 1998
A day after stealing a water truck, three men shoot and kill a Cortez, Colo., police officer and wound two other officers as they try to stop the suspects during a road chase. After the gun battle, the three — Alan Monty Pilon, Robert Mason and Jason McVean — disappear into the canyons of the high desert. Mason will be found a week later, dead of an apparently self-inflicted gunshot. The skeletal remains of Pilon are found in October 1999 and show that he, too, died of a gunshot to the head, another apparent suicide. McVean is not found, but most authorities assume he died in the desert. Many officials believe the three men intended to use the water truck in some kind of terrorist attack, but the nature of their suspected plans is never learned.
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intense.


July 1, 1998
Three men are charged with conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction after threatening President Clinton and other federal officials with biological weapons. Officials say the men planned to use a cactus thorn coated with a toxin like anthrax and fired by a modified butane lighter to carry out the murders. One man is acquitted of the charges, but Jack Abbot Grebe, Jr., and Johnnie Wise — a 72-year-old man who attended meetings of the separatist Republic of Texas group — eventually are sentenced to more than 24 years in prison.
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damnit. separatists.
http://www.texasnationalpress.com/texlog/article.php?story=20090423124948768
http://books.google.com/books?id=1jEP8Ve4zwgC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq="Johnnie Wise" Republic of Texas&source=bl&ots=g4AXchE6u-&sig=PtGRsPmxxpB8rmpp3RhVTAGTxXU&hl=en&ei=Tx00SsL9NpbKtgeQ3PX4Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6
http://www.nature.com/embor/journal/v1/n5/full/embor541.html
http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/200904200002
these guys are bad news. can't they just assert the 10th amendment and stop smearing militias everywhere??
I don't know if I should add them or not...

1 violent verdict

July 30, 1998
South Carolina militia member Paul T. Chastain is charged with weapons, explosives and drug violations after allegedly trying to trade drugs for a machine gun and enough C-4 plastic explosive to demolish a five-room house. The next year, Chastain pleads guilty to an array of charges, including threatening to kill Attorney General Janet Reno and FBI Director Louis Freeh. He is sentenced to 15 years in federal prison.
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wtf. why not confess you threatened to kill the Pope too?
http://www.chastaincentral.com/content/crime.html#Paul
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=426

1 violent retard, er, verdict


October 23, 1998
Dr. Barnett Slepian is assassinated by a sniper as he converses with his wife and children in the kitchen of their Amherst, N.Y., home. Identified as a suspect shortly after the murder, James Charles Kopp flees to Mexico, driven and disguised by friend Jennifer Rock, and goes on to hide out in Ireland and France. Two fellow anti-abortion extremists, Loretta Marra and Dennis Malvasi, make plans to help Kopp secretly return. Kopp, also suspected in the earlier sniper woundings of four other physicians in Canada and upstate New York, is arrested in France as he picks up money wired by Marra and Malvasi. He eventually admits the shooting to a newspaper reporter — claiming that he only intended to wound Slepian — and is sentenced to 25 years in prison. Marra and Malvasi go to prison for almost three years after pleading guilty to federal charges related to harboring a fugitive.
-
pro-life (lol...)


June 10, 1999
Officials arrest Alabama plumber Chris Scott Gilliam, a member of the neo-Nazi National Alliance, after he attempts to purchase 10 hand grenades from an undercover federal agent. Gilliam, who months earlier paraded in an extremist T-shirt in front of the Southern Poverty Law Center's offices in Montgomery, tells agents he planned to send mail bombs to targets in Washington, d.c. Agents searching his home find bomb-making manuals, white supremacist literature and an assault rifle. Gilliam pleads guilty to federal firearms charges and is sentenced to 10 years in prison. He is expected to be released in 2008.
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neo-nazi


July 1, 1999
A gay couple, Gary Matson and Winfield Mowder, are shot to death in bed at their home near Redding, Calif. Days later, after tracking purchases made on Mowder's stolen credit card, police arrest brothers Benjamin Matthew Williams and James Tyler Williams. At least one of the pair, Matthew Williams (both use their middle names), is an adherent of the anti-Semitic Christian Identity theology. Police soon learn that the brothers two weeks earlier carried out three synagogue arsons in Sacramento, along with the arson of an abortion clinic there. Both brothers, whose mother at one point refers in a conversation to her sons' victims as "two homos," eventually admit their guilt — in Matthew's case, in a newspaper interview. But Matthew, who at one point badly injures a guard in a surprise attack, commits suicide in jail in late 2002. Tyler, who pleads guilty to an array of charges in the case, is not expected to be eligible for parole for some 50 years.
-
extreme pro-heterosexualism! and pro-non-judaism-anti-non-christian

July 2, 1999
Infuriated that neo-Nazi leader Matt Hale has just been denied his law license by Illinois officials, follower Benjamin Nathaniel Smith begins a three-day murder spree across Illinois and Indiana, shooting to death a black former college basketball coach and a Korean doctoral student and wounding nine other minorities. Smith kills himself as police close in during a car chase. Hale, leader of the World Church of the Creator, at first claims to barely know Smith. But it quickly emerges that Hale has recently given Smith his group's top award and, in fact, has spent some 16 hours on the phone with him in the two weeks before Smith's rampage. Conveniently, Hale receives a registered letter from Smith just days after his suicide, informing Hale that Smith is quitting the group because he now sees violence as the only answer.
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wow.


August 10, 1999
Buford Furrow, a former member of the neo-Nazi Aryan Nations who has been living with the widow of slain terrorist leader Bob Mathews, strides into a Jewish community center near Los Angeles and fires more than 70 bullets, wounding three boys, a teenage girl and a woman. He then drives into the San Fernando Valley and kills Filipino-American mailman Joseph Ileto. The next day, Furrow turns himself in, saying he intended to send "a wake-up call to America to kill Jews." Furrow, who has a history of mental illness, eventually pleads guilty and is sentenced to two life terms without parole, plus 110 years in prison.
-
Furrow is pro-führer


November 5, 1999
FBI agents arrest James Kenneth Gluck in Tampa, Fla., after he wrote a 10-page letter to judges in Jefferson County, Colo., threatening to "wage biological warfare" on a county justice center. While searching his home, police find the materials needed to make ricin, one of the deadliest poisons known. Gluck later threatens a judge, claiming that he could kill 10,000 people with the chemical. After serving time in federal prison, Gluck is released in early 2001.
-
loner...


December 5, 1999
Two California men, both members of the San Joaquin Militia, are charged with conspiracy in connection with a plot to blow up two 12-million-gallon propane tanks, a television tower and an electrical substation in hopes of provoking an insurrection. In 2001, the former militia leader, Donald Rudolph, pleads guilty to plotting to kill a federal judge and blow up the propane tanks, and testifies against his former comrades. Kevin Ray Patterson and Charles Dennis Kiles are ultimately convicted of several charges in connection with the conspiracy. They are expected to be released from federal prison in 2021 and 2018, respectively.
-
smells like something I've seen before. Rudolph, if you're another lying backstabber... I'll... I'll add you to the list!
http://www.kcra.com/news/294699/detail.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia73.html
http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=004XIF
apparently there weren't any crazy bloggers on this one. sob.

3 violent verdicts


December 8, 1999
Donald Beauregard, head of a militia coalition known as the Southeastern States Alliance, is charged with conspiracy, providing materials for a terrorist act and gun violations in connection with a plot to bomb energy facilities and cause power outages in Florida and Georgia. After pleading guilty to several charges, Beauregard, who once claimed to have discovered a secret map detailing a planned un takeover mistakenly printed on a box of Trix cereal, is sentenced to five years in federal prison. He is released in 2004, a year after accomplice James Troy Diver is freed following a similar conviction.
-
http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia26.html
rofl the idiot thought the cop was a friend even though he said he was a cop... true story. guilty.

1 violent verdict


March 9, 2000
Federal agents arrest Mark Wayne McCool, the one-time leader of the Texas Militia and Combined Action Program, as he allegedly makes plans to attack the Houston federal building. McCool, who was arrested after buying powerful C-4 plastic explosives and an automatic weapon from an undercover FBI agent, earlier plotted to attack the federal building with a member of his own group and a member of the antigovernment Republic of Texas, but those two men eventually abandoned the plot. McCool, however, remained convinced the un had stored a cache of military materiel in the building. In the end, he pleads guilty to federal charges that bring him just six months in jail.
-
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=905
not that many links to go around on google but I'll say yes, guilty, just because I don't like his name. Yea. McCool, who do you think you are? You're not cool man, not cool.

1 violent verdict



April 28, 2000
Immigration attorney Richard Baumhammers, himself the son of Latvian immigrants, goes on a rampage in the Pittsburgh area against non-whites, killing five people and critically wounding a sixth. Baumhammers had recently started a tiny white supremacist group, the Free Market Party, that demanded an end to non-white immigration into the United States. In the end, the unemployed attorney, who was living with parents at the time of his murder spree, is sentenced to death for targeting his victims because of their race.
-
racist


March 1, 2001
As part of an ongoing probe into a white supremacist group, federal and local law enforcement agents raid the Corbett, Ore., home of Fritz Springmeier, seizing equipment to grow marijuana and weapons and racist literature. They also find a binder notebook entitled "Army of God, Yahweh's Warriors" that contains what officials call a list of targets, including a local federal building and the FBI's Oregon offices. Springmeier, an associate of the anti-Semitic Christian Patriots Association, is eventually charged with setting off a diversionary bomb at an adult video store in Damascus, Ore., in 1997 as part of a bank robbery carried out by accomplice Forrest Bateman Jr. Another 2001 raid finds small amounts of bomb materials and marijuana in Bateman's home. Eventually, Bateman pleads guilty to bank robbery and Springmeier is convicted of the same charges, and both are sentenced to nine years.
-
religious


April 19, 2001
White supremacists Leo Felton and girlfriend Erica Chase are arrested following a foot chase that began when a police officer spotted them trying to pass counterfeit bills at a Boston donut shop. Investigators quickly learn Felton heads up a tiny group called Aryan Unit One, and that Chase and Felton, who had already obtained a timing device, planned to blow up black and Jewish landmarks and possibly assassinate black and Jewish leaders. They also learn another amazing fact: Felton, a self-described Aryan, is secretly biracial. Felton and Chase are eventually convicted of conspiracy, weapons violations and obstruction, and Felton is also convicted of bank robbery and other charges. Felton, who previously served 11 years for assaulting a black taxi driver, is sentenced to serve more than 21 years in federal prison, while his one-time sweetheart draws a lesser term.
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racist


Oct. 14, 2001
A North Carolina sheriff's deputy pulls over Steve Anderson, a former "colonel" in the Kentucky Militia, on a routine traffic stop as he heads home to Kentucky from a white supremacist gathering in North Carolina. Anderson, who has issued violent threats against officials for months via an illegal pirate radio station and is an adherent of racist Christian Identity theology, pulls out a semi-automatic weapon and peppers the deputy's car with bullets before driving his truck into the woods and disappearing for 13 months. Officials later find six pipe bombs in Anderson's abandoned truck and 27 bombs and destructive devices in his home. In the end, Anderson apologizes for his actions and pleads guilty. He is sentenced on a variety of firearms charges to 15 years in federal prison.
-
classic

1 violent verdict


Dec. 5, 2001
Anti-abortion extremist Clayton Lee Wagner, who nine months earlier escaped from an Illinois jail while awaiting sentencing on weapons and carjacking charges, is arrested in Cincinnati, Ohio. Wagner's odyssey began in September 1999, when he was stopped driving a stolen camper in Illinois and told police he was headed to Seattle to murder an abortion provider. He escaped in February 2001 and, while on the lam, mailed more than 550 hoax anthrax letters to abortion clinics and posted an Internet threat warning abortion clinic workers that "if you work for the murderous abortionist, I'm going to kill you." Wagner is eventually sentenced to 30 years on the Illinois charges, including his escape. In Ohio, he is sentenced to almost 20 years more, to be served consecutively, on various weapons and car theft charges related to his time on the run. In late 2003, he also is found guilty of 51 federal terror charges, but his sentencing is deferred.
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loner


Dec. 11, 2001
Jewish Defense League chairman Irving David Rubin and a follower, Earl Leslie Krugel, are arrested in California and charged with conspiring to bomb the offices of U.S. Rep. Darrel Issa (R-Calif.) and the King Fahd Mosque in Culver City. Authorities say a confidential informant taped meetings with the two in which the bombings were discussed and Krugel said the jdl needed "to do something to one of their filthy mosques." Rubin later commits suicide in prison, officials say, just before he is to go on trial in late 2002. Krugel pleads guilty to conspiracy in both plots, and testifies that Rubin conspired with him. Krugel faces a mandatory 10-year sentence, and could receive up to life in federal prison.
-
racist.


16 convictions on conspiracy to bomb/kill
no real conspiracies carried out just yet... strange, it seems almost as if the conspiracies only exist when the FBI and BATF got agents on the case... and their payed informants are almost always the sole testifiers, except for the cases where they persuade the suspect into a plea bargain... just makes you wonder, you know.

3 of them I'm almost sure were falsified testimony but you got to read through everything to get a feel of it

Really, I got no problem understanding why a racist or religious fanatic would want to kill and bomb, but militias are different because their purpose are different. And I'm going to keep saying that until people stop demonizing them, and these agencies keep trying to provocateur and track for no reason other than affirm their power, and fearmonger the public.
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Yurebis
Profile Joined January 2009
United States1452 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-14 06:58:38
June 14 2009 06:41 GMT
#253
I feel you L, I wouldn't stand having to read my own posts if I were in your position because they are so bad and repetitive lol. But please do understand that I want the truth just as much as you, and if there is statistical evidence that militia members are dangerous I'd want to see it as well.

If you heard your girlfriend was cheating on you with one of your friends, wouldn't you want to know the truth? well I feel the same way even if I'm biased into believing it's bullshit. Uh, expanding on that analogy, your friend is a damn ugly midget, so you doubt your GF would ever replace you with him. Well, these intelligence agencies are very, very corrupt IMO, and ... ok bad analogy but I'm not going back, I never give up. (lol, horrible, horrible)

Completed the SPLC (shinhan bank proleague center? no!) 60 cases list:
+ Show Spoiler +
July 28, 1995
Antigovernment extremist Charles Ray Polk is arrested after trying to purchase a machine gun from an undercover police officer, and is later indicted by a federal grand jury for plotting to blow up the Internal Revenue Service building in Austin, Texas. At the time of his arrest, Polk is trying to purchase plastic explosives to add to the already huge arsenal he's amassed. Polk is sentenced to almost 21 years in federal prison, with a projected release date in 2009.
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not a militia member


October 9, 1995
Saboteurs derail an Amtrak passenger train near Hyder, Ariz., killing one person and injuring scores of others. An antigovernment message, signed by the "Sons of Gestapo," is left behind. The perpetrators remain at large.
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since perpetrators are unknown, can't say they were militia?


November 9, 1995
Oklahoma Constitutional Militia leader Willie Ray Lampley, his wife Cecilia and another man, John Dare Baird, are arrested as they prepare explosives to bomb numerous targets, including the Southern Poverty Law Center, gay bars and abortion clinics. The three, along with another suspect arrested later, are sentenced to terms of up to 11 years in 1996. An appeals court upholds Lampley's sentence the following year. Baird is released in August 2004, while Ray Lampley — who wrote letters from prison urging others to violence — is slated to be freed in January 2006.
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rofl SPLC.
http://monitor.net/monitor/9607a/lampleysentence.html
http://www.albionmonitor.net/12-3-95/lampley.html
http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/127/1231/571029/
http://books.google.com/books?id=p1NGyz43INkC&pg=PA162&lpg=PA162&dq=Willie Ray Lampley&source=bl&ots=Rc4wIfNUAq&sig=kYPSO_rM9QPP_EtVlGjaTAjniG0&hl=en&ei=QtEzSouNNIGMtgfBkdi7CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6
^ this book is so good, I'm buying an used one for $5
Lampley may be a nut alright...but he's a more of a religious nut than an anti-govt nut! the other two were just dragged along by him too... I won't deny the convictions* (not indictments, omg n00b) however.

3 militants guilty of conspiracy to bomb shit.


December 18, 1995
An Internal Revenue Service (IRS) employee discovers a plastic drum packed with ammonium nitrate and fuel oil in a parking lot behind the IRS building in Reno, Nev. The device failed to explode a day earlier when a three-foot fuse went out prematurely. Ten days later, tax protester Joseph Martin Bailie is arrested. Bailie is eventually sentenced to 36 years in federal prison.
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not a militia member


January 18, 1996
Peter Kevin Langan, the pseudonymous "Commander Pedro" who leads the underground Aryan Republican Army, is arrested after a shootout with the FBI in Ohio. Along with six other suspects arrested around the same time, Langan is charged in connection with a string of 22 bank robberies in seven Midwestern states between 1994 and 1996. After pleading guilty and agreeing to testify, conspirator Richard Guthrie commits suicide in his cell. Two others, Kevin McCarthy and Scott Stedeford, enter plea bargains and do testify against their co-conspirators. Eventually, Mark Thomas, a leading neo-Nazi in Pennsylvania, pleads guilty for his role in helping organize the robberies and agrees to testify against Langan and other gang members. Shawn Kenny, another suspect, becomes a federal informant. Langan is sentenced to a life term in one case, plus 55 years in another. Thomas is sentenced to eight years in prison, and is released in early 2004.
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this is a racist militia, not a constitutional militia, different purposes, defending different things. he's "defending" his bloodline, I'm defeding the law and constitution. very different. so yeah sue me, this is out of my list.


April 11, 1996
Antigovernment activist Ray Hamblin is charged with illegal possession of explosives after authorities find 460 pounds of the high explosive Tovex, 746 pounds of ANFO blasting agent and 15 homemade hand grenades on his property in Hood River, Ore. Hamblin is sentenced to almost four years in federal prison, and is released in March 2000.
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not a militia member


April 12, 1996
Apparently inspired by his reading of a neo-Nazi tract, Larry Wayne Shoemake kills one black man and wounds seven other people, including a reporter, during a racist shooting spree in a black neighborhood in Jackson, Miss. As police close in on the abandoned restaurant he is shooting from, Shoemake, who is white, sets the restaurant on fire and kills himself. A search of his home finds references to "Separation or Annihilation," an essay on race relations by National Alliance leader William Pierce, along with an arsenal of weapons that includes 17 long guns, 20,000 rounds of ammunition, several knives and countless military manuals.
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damn... wiretap every single white man with a gun IMO.


April 26, 1996
Two leaders of the Militia-at-Large of the Republic of Georgia, Robert Edward Starr iii and William James McCranie Jr., are charged with manufacturing shrapnel bombs for distribution to militia members. Later in the year, they are sentenced on explosives charges to terms of up to eight years. Another Militia-at-Large member, accused of training a team to assassinate politicians, is later convicted of conspiracy. Starr is released from prison in 2003, while McCranie gets out in 2001. The last member, Troy Allen Kayser (alias Troy Spain), draws six years in prison and is released in early 2002.
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oh yeah this was the one with forged evidence. maybe.
http://www.constitution.org/piml/96051003.txt
http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia68.html
http://www.injusticeline.com/gabomb.html
Agent Stephen W. Gillis of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms also acknowledged that Starr's co-defendant, William James "Jimmy" McCranie, had said, "I don't want to know anything about it" and walked away when the government's informant was talking about building bombs.
http://www.adl.org/mwd/oldnew3.asp

All the solid evidence from the raid were 10 buried pipe bombs and "bomb making materials" which were 2 bags of legally obtainable chemicals. They had one tape of Starr saying the day before on a radio show that the FBI was on his ass. testimony from secret informants + Gillis. that's all they got. They couldn't define a purpose for the bombs, couldn't define a conspiracy to bomb anything but their own lawns? So yeah.. make your own conclusions

Bottom line is they weren't convicted of conspiracy to kill/bomb/hurt no one. They were convicted for having the stupid bombs and conspiracy to make more based on the word of the stupid informants + Gillis

nonviolent verdict.
2 acquitted of conspiracy to bomb/kill


July 1, 1996
Twelve members of an Arizona militia group called the Viper Team are arrested on federal conspiracy, weapons and explosive charges after allegedly surveying and videotaping government buildings as potential targets. All 12 plead guilty or are convicted of various charges, drawing sentences of up to nine years in prison. The plot participants are all released in coming years, with Gary Curds Baer, who drew the heaviest sentence, freed in May 2004.
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http://www.copi.com/articles/viper.html
damn provocateurs.
no violent conspiracy indictment. funny that when it's a conspiracy to make illegal bombs, then don't say it, when it's conspiracy to blow shit up, they say it. why not include the damn exact charge in the blurb to make my job easier, lol...
really as I was reading the indictments I was like "wow, awesome" lol it may be illegal and dangerous to make these weapons and bombs but it doesn't mean they're terrorists, they're just rednecks having fun. that doesn't mean they shouldn't be charged and tried, but it's not all you make it to be, ok?

nonviolent verdict
12 acquitted of conspiracy to bomb/kill


July 27, 1996
A nail-packed bomb goes off at the Atlanta Olympics, which is seen by many extremists as part of a Satanic "New World Order," killing one person and injuring more than 100 others. Investigators will later conclude the attack is linked to 1997-1998 bombings of an Atlanta-area abortion clinic, an Atlanta gay bar and a Birmingham, Ala., abortion facility. Suspect Eric Robert Rudolph — a reclusive North Carolina man tied to the anti-Semitic Christian Identity theology — flees into the woods of his native state after he is identified in early 1998 as a suspect in the Birmingham attack, and is only captured five years later. Eventually, he pleads guilty to all of the attacks attributed to him in exchange for life without parole.
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loner


July 29, 1996
Washington State Militia leader John Pitner and seven others are arrested on weapons and explosives charges in connection with a plot to build pipe bombs for a confrontation with the federal government. Pitner and four others are convicted on weapons charges, while conspiracy charges against all eight end in a mistrial. Pitner is later retried on that charge, convicted and sentenced to four years in prison. He is freed from prison in 2001.
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http://www.constitution.org/abus/pitner.htm <-index with tons of broken links..
http://proliberty.com/observer/prt0298a.htm <-haha can't use that pocket constitution
http://www.njmilitia.org/apr98.htm
http://www.worldfreeinternet.net/news/nws35.htm <-nice
http://www.publicgood.org/reports/indict.html
this is too confusing. mistrials retrials asdasfdas
http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/307/1178/521877/
does this mean:
"Pitner's conviction of possession of a machine gun, resulting from his first trial, is affirmed. Pitner's conviction of conspiracy, resulting from his second trial, is reversed and remanded with instructions to dismiss the indictment."
that his conviction of conspiracy got retracted? (after he already spent all those years in jail with no bail lol)

correct me if i'm wrong but i think this is another nonviolent, no conspiracy verdict
8 acquitted of conspiracy to bomb


October 8, 1996
Three "Phineas Priests" — racist and anti-Semitic Christian Identity terrorists who feel they've been called by God to undertake violent attacks — are charged in connection with two bank robberies and bombings at the two banks, a Spokane newspaper and a Planned Parenthood office. Charles Barbee, Robert Berry and Jay Merrell are eventually convicted and sentenced to life terms. Brian Ratigan, a fourth member of the group arrested separately, draws a 55-year term.
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damn.


October 11, 1996
Seven members of the Mountaineer Militia are arrested in a plot to blow up the FBI's national fingerprint records center, where 1,000 people work, in West Virginia. In 1998, leader Floyd "Ray" Looker is sentenced to 18 years in prison. Two other defendants are sentenced on explosives charges and a third draws a year in prison for providing blueprints of the FBI facility to Looker, who then sold them to a government informant who was posing as a terrorist.
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http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia70.html
http://pacer.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinion.pdf/027661.U.pdf

Looker is guilty of conspiring with terrorists.. fine, the FBI sure are the terrorists lol
the other guys, not so much

1 "violent" verdict
6 acquitted of conspiracy


January 16, 1997
Two anti-personnel bombs — the second clearly designed to kill arriving law enforcement and rescue workers — explode outside an abortion clinic in Sandy Springs, Ga., a suburb of Atlanta. Seven people are injured. Letters signed by the "Army of God" claim responsibility for this attack and another, a month later, at an Atlanta gay bar. Authorities later learn that these attacks, the 1998 bombing of a Birmingham, Ala., abortion clinic and the 1996 Atlanta Olympics bombing, were all carried out by Eric Robert Rudolph, who is captured in 2003 after five years on the run. Rudolph avoids the death penalty by pleading guilty in exchange for a life sentence, but simultaneously releases a defiant statement defending his attacks.
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loner, not a militia member even though the media loves to spin it


January 22, 1997
Authorities raid the Martinton, Ill., home of former Marine Ricky Salyers, an alleged Ku Klux Klan member, discovering 35,000 rounds of heavy ammunition, armor piercing shells, smoke and tear gas grenades, live shells for grenade launchers, artillery shells and other military gear. Salyers was discharged earlier from the Marines, where he taught demolitions and sniping, after tossing a live grenade (with the pin still in) at state police officers serving him with a search warrant in 1995. Following the 1997 raid, Salyers, an alleged member of the underground Black Dawn group of extremists in the military, is sentenced to serve three years for weapons violations. He is released from prison in 2000.
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sad... but I won't count, sorry...
that "black dawn" group within the military is a white supremacist group I believe, theres little info on them


March 26, 1997
Militia activist Brendon Blasz is arrested in Kalamazoo, Mich., and charged with making pipe bombs and other illegal explosives. Prosecutors say Blasz plotted to bomb the federal building in Battle Creek, the IRS building in Portage, a Kalamazoo television station and federal armories. But they recommend leniency on his explosives conviction after Blasz renounces his antigovernment beliefs and cooperates with them. In August, he is sentenced to more than three years in federal prison. Blasz is released in early 2000.
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nonviolent verdict (wuss! lol)
acquitted of con.


April 22, 1997
Three Ku Klux Klan members are arrested in a plot to blow up a natural gas refinery outside Fort Worth, Texas, after local Klan leader Robert Spence gets cold feet and goes to the FBI. The three, along with a fourth arrested later, expected to kill a huge number of people with the blast — authorities later say as many as 30,000 might have died — which was to serve, incredibly, as a diversion for a simultaneous armored car robbery. Among the victims would have been children at a nearby school. All four plead guilty to conspiracy charges and are sentenced to terms of up to 20 years. Spence enters the Witness Protection Program. Carl Jay Waskom Jr. is released in June 2004. Shawn and Catherine Adams, a couple, are expected to be freed in 2006, and Edward Taylor Jr. in early 2007.
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kkk

April 23, 1997
Florida police arrest Todd Vanbiber, a member of the neo-Nazi National Alliance's Tampa unit and the shadowy League of the Silent Soldier, after he accidentally sets off pipe bombs he was building, blasting shrapnel into his own face. He is accused of plotting to use the bombs on the approach to Disney World to divert attention from a planned string of bank robberies. Vanbiber pleads guilty to weapons and explosives charges and is sentenced to more than six years in federal prison. He is released in 2002. Within two years, Vanbiber is posting messages on neo-Nazi Internet sites boasting that he has built over 300 bombs successfully and only made one error, and describing mass murderer Timothy McVeigh as a hero.
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neo-nazi


April 27, 1997
After a cache of explosives stored in a tree blows up near Yuba City, Calif., police arrest Montana Freemen supporter William Robert Goehler. Investigators looking into the blast arrest two Goehler associates, one of them a militia leader, after finding 500 pounds of petrogel explosives — enough to level three city blocks — in a motor home parked outside their residence. Six others are arrested on related charges. Goehler, with previous convictions for rape, burglary and assault, is sentenced to 25 years to life in prison.
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omg he killed a tree!?!
I can't find the verdicts on google bawwww I'm powerless
http://articles.latimes.com/1997-05-02/news/mn-54740_1_explosives-charges
http://www.sfgate.com/e/a/1999/05/23/METRO10000.dtl
ok well it's obvious this guy is messed up, rapist, stabbed his lawyer, lol, but I'm not even sure if hes a real member, it says supporter everywhere does that mean membership? I absolutely can't find the other guys so I'll assume it was just more illegal explosive devices indictments
http://www.adl.org/mwd/Calendar.asp
ok well he isn't a member, sorry, I'd love to include a nut like this guy in, but he isn't.


May 3, 1997
Antigovernment extremists set fire to the IRS office in Colorado Springs, Colo., causing $2.5 million in damage and injuring a firefighter. Federal agents later arrest five men in connection with the arson, which is conceived as a protest against the tax system. Ringleader James Cleaver, former national director of the antigovernment Sons of Liberty group, is eventually sentenced to 33 years in prison, while accomplice Jack Dowell is sentenced in a separate trial to serve 30 years. Both are ordered to pay $2.2 million in restitution. Dowell's cousin is acquitted of all charges, while two other suspects, Ronald Sherman and Thomas Shafer, plead guilty to perjury charges in connection with the case.
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Burn IRS, burn! j/k.
http://www.adl.org/learn/news/IRS_Arson.asp
this Sons of Liberty group is (was) no militia
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4191/is_20020728/ai_n10007771/
"political action group"
what an idiot... that's how you define action? burning down buildings? retard.
these kinds of people are the worst, they completely ruin what others stand for while pretending to be good people.


July 4, 1997
Militiaman Bradley Playford Glover and another heavily armed antigovernment activist are arrested before dawn near Fort Hood, in central Texas, just hours before they planned to invade the Army base and slaughter foreign troops they mistakenly believed were housed there. In the next few days, five other people are arrested in several states for their alleged roles in the plot to invade a series of military bases where the group believes United Nations forces are massing for an assault on Americans. All seven are part of a splinter group of the Third Continental Congress, a kind of militia government-in-waiting. In the end, Glover is sentenced to two years on Kansas weapons charges, to be followed by a five-year federal term in connection with the Fort Hood plot. The others draw lesser terms. Glover is released in 2003, the last of the seven to get out.
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http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=861&dat=19981030&id=NEEKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=bksDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4555,6227572
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/terror/terror99.pdf
http://www.adl.org/mwd/glover.asp
two idiots
two violent verdicts
would be funny if UN troops were really there though, "omg, the batshit insane were right!"

1 violent verdict, the accomplice, Dorsett, only was convicted of having an illegal gun...
the others, I don't know I can't find anything but the anti-militia websites say they were convicted on "minor charges" so I'm gonna assume no felony, no conspiracy.
6 acquitted of conspiracy to blablabla



December 12, 1997
A federal grand jury in Arkansas indicts three men on racketeering charges for plotting to overthrow the government and create a whites-only Aryan People's Republic, which they intend to grow through polygamy. Chevie Kehoe, Daniel Lee and Faron Lovelace are accused of crimes in six states, including murder, kidnapping, robbery and conspiracy. Kehoe and Lee will also face state charges of murdering an Arkansas family, including an 8-year-old girl, in 1996. Kehoe ultimately receives a life sentence on that charge, while Lee is sentenced to death. Lovelace is sentenced to death for the murder of a suspected informant, although in early 2005 he will be up for resentencing because of court rulings. Kehoe's brother, Cheyne, is convicted of attempted murder during a February 1997 Ohio shootout with police and sentenced to 24 years in prison, despite his key role in helping authorities find his fugitive brother in Utah in June 1997 after the shootout. Cheyne went to the authorities after Chevie began talking about murdering their parents and showing sexual interest in Cheyne's wife.
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damn


January 29, 1998
An off-duty police officer is killed and a nurse terribly maimed when a nail-packed, remote-control bomb explodes outside a Birmingham, Ala., abortion facility, the New Woman All Women clinic. Letters to media outlets and officials claim responsibility in the name of the "Army of God," the same entity that took credit for the bombings of a clinic and a gay bar in the Atlanta area. The attack also will be linked to the fatal 1996 bombing of the Atlanta Olympics. Eric Robert Rudolph, a loner from North Carolina, is first identified as a suspect when witnesses spot his pickup truck fleeing the Birmingham bombing. But he is not caught until 2003. He ultimately pleads guilty to all four attacks in exchange for a life sentence.
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loner


February 23, 1998
Three men with links to a Ku Klux Klan group are arrested near East St. Louis, Ill., on weapons charges. The three, along with three other men arrested later, had formed a group called The New Order, patterned on a 1980s terror group called The Order (a.k.a. the Silent Brotherhood) that carried out assassinations and armored car heists. New Order members plotted to assassinate a federal judge and civil rights lawyer Morris Dees, blow up the Southern Poverty Law Center that Dees co-founded and other buildings, poison water supplies and rob banks. In the end, all six plead guilty or are convicted of weapons charges, drawing terms of up to seven years in federal prison. Wallace Weicherding, who came to a 1997 Dees speech with a concealed gun but turned back rather than pass through a metal detector, is freed in 2003. New Order leader Dennis McGiffen is released in July 2004, the last of the six to regain his freedom.
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kkk


March 18, 1998
Three members of the North American Militia of Southwestern Michigan are arrested on firearms and other charges. Prosecutors say the men conspired to bomb federal buildings, a Kalamazoo television station and an interstate highway interchange, kill federal agents, assassinate politicians and attack aircraft at a National Guard base — attacks that were all to be funded by marijuana sales. The group's leader, Ken Carter, is a self-described member of the neo-Nazi Aryan Nations. Carter pleads guilty, testifies against his former comrades, and is sentenced to five years in prison. The others, Randy Graham and Bradford Metcalf, go to trial and are ultimately handed sentences of 40 and 55 years, respectively. Carter is released from prison in 2002.
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looks ugly
http://www.newcomm.org/content/view/1765/93/
http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia6.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia14.html
http://www.pub.umich.edu/daily/1998/nov/11-19-98/news/news11.html
all three guilty. not much to say.

unless... yes! nutty blogger for the rescue!
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/duffy104.html
so carter was given a 5 year plea bargain with a bonus surgery for his "emphysema", and took it. he testified bullshit against his dear comrades! along with the fed's testimony, they can make up whatever they want and it would be strong cross-referenced evidence. Metcalf didn't want a lawyer so he's fucked. The overt act apparently was having illegal machine guns, which this guy claims weren't machine guns but the jury was made to think they were by the prosecutor. Fucking Carter died 6 months after getting out cuz of a lung disease anyway, couldn't he not have falsely testified? damnit man.

Well, not worth going there. I'll just pretend the verdicts and BATF and FBI are cool and honest folks with no agenda but the well-being of the population.

3 violent verdicts.


May 29, 1998
A day after stealing a water truck, three men shoot and kill a Cortez, Colo., police officer and wound two other officers as they try to stop the suspects during a road chase. After the gun battle, the three — Alan Monty Pilon, Robert Mason and Jason McVean — disappear into the canyons of the high desert. Mason will be found a week later, dead of an apparently self-inflicted gunshot. The skeletal remains of Pilon are found in October 1999 and show that he, too, died of a gunshot to the head, another apparent suicide. McVean is not found, but most authorities assume he died in the desert. Many officials believe the three men intended to use the water truck in some kind of terrorist attack, but the nature of their suspected plans is never learned.
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intense.


July 1, 1998
Three men are charged with conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction after threatening President Clinton and other federal officials with biological weapons. Officials say the men planned to use a cactus thorn coated with a toxin like anthrax and fired by a modified butane lighter to carry out the murders. One man is acquitted of the charges, but Jack Abbot Grebe, Jr., and Johnnie Wise — a 72-year-old man who attended meetings of the separatist Republic of Texas group — eventually are sentenced to more than 24 years in prison.
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damnit. separatists.
http://www.texasnationalpress.com/texlog/article.php?story=20090423124948768
http://books.google.com/books?id=1jEP8Ve4zwgC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq="Johnnie Wise" Republic of Texas&source=bl&ots=g4AXchE6u-&sig=PtGRsPmxxpB8rmpp3RhVTAGTxXU&hl=en&ei=Tx00SsL9NpbKtgeQ3PX4Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6
http://www.nature.com/embor/journal/v1/n5/full/embor541.html
http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/200904200002
these guys are bad news. can't they just assert the 10th amendment and stop smearing militias everywhere??
I don't know if I should add them or not...

I say no, send any complaints to idontgiveafuck@rightwingextremist.com

July 30, 1998
South Carolina militia member Paul T. Chastain is charged with weapons, explosives and drug violations after allegedly trying to trade drugs for a machine gun and enough C-4 plastic explosive to demolish a five-room house. The next year, Chastain pleads guilty to an array of charges, including threatening to kill Attorney General Janet Reno and FBI Director Louis Freeh. He is sentenced to 15 years in federal prison.
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wtf. why not confess you threatened to kill the Pope too?
http://www.chastaincentral.com/content/crime.html#Paul
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=426

1 violent retard, er, verdict


October 23, 1998
Dr. Barnett Slepian is assassinated by a sniper as he converses with his wife and children in the kitchen of their Amherst, N.Y., home. Identified as a suspect shortly after the murder, James Charles Kopp flees to Mexico, driven and disguised by friend Jennifer Rock, and goes on to hide out in Ireland and France. Two fellow anti-abortion extremists, Loretta Marra and Dennis Malvasi, make plans to help Kopp secretly return. Kopp, also suspected in the earlier sniper woundings of four other physicians in Canada and upstate New York, is arrested in France as he picks up money wired by Marra and Malvasi. He eventually admits the shooting to a newspaper reporter — claiming that he only intended to wound Slepian — and is sentenced to 25 years in prison. Marra and Malvasi go to prison for almost three years after pleading guilty to federal charges related to harboring a fugitive.
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pro-life (lol...)


June 10, 1999
Officials arrest Alabama plumber Chris Scott Gilliam, a member of the neo-Nazi National Alliance, after he attempts to purchase 10 hand grenades from an undercover federal agent. Gilliam, who months earlier paraded in an extremist T-shirt in front of the Southern Poverty Law Center's offices in Montgomery, tells agents he planned to send mail bombs to targets in Washington, d.c. Agents searching his home find bomb-making manuals, white supremacist literature and an assault rifle. Gilliam pleads guilty to federal firearms charges and is sentenced to 10 years in prison. He is expected to be released in 2008.
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neo-nazi


July 1, 1999
A gay couple, Gary Matson and Winfield Mowder, are shot to death in bed at their home near Redding, Calif. Days later, after tracking purchases made on Mowder's stolen credit card, police arrest brothers Benjamin Matthew Williams and James Tyler Williams. At least one of the pair, Matthew Williams (both use their middle names), is an adherent of the anti-Semitic Christian Identity theology. Police soon learn that the brothers two weeks earlier carried out three synagogue arsons in Sacramento, along with the arson of an abortion clinic there. Both brothers, whose mother at one point refers in a conversation to her sons' victims as "two homos," eventually admit their guilt — in Matthew's case, in a newspaper interview. But Matthew, who at one point badly injures a guard in a surprise attack, commits suicide in jail in late 2002. Tyler, who pleads guilty to an array of charges in the case, is not expected to be eligible for parole for some 50 years.
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extreme pro-heterosexualism and pro-non-judaism-anti-non-christian

July 2, 1999
Infuriated that neo-Nazi leader Matt Hale has just been denied his law license by Illinois officials, follower Benjamin Nathaniel Smith begins a three-day murder spree across Illinois and Indiana, shooting to death a black former college basketball coach and a Korean doctoral student and wounding nine other minorities. Smith kills himself as police close in during a car chase. Hale, leader of the World Church of the Creator, at first claims to barely know Smith. But it quickly emerges that Hale has recently given Smith his group's top award and, in fact, has spent some 16 hours on the phone with him in the two weeks before Smith's rampage. Conveniently, Hale receives a registered letter from Smith just days after his suicide, informing Hale that Smith is quitting the group because he now sees violence as the only answer.
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wow.


August 10, 1999
Buford Furrow, a former member of the neo-Nazi Aryan Nations who has been living with the widow of slain terrorist leader Bob Mathews, strides into a Jewish community center near Los Angeles and fires more than 70 bullets, wounding three boys, a teenage girl and a woman. He then drives into the San Fernando Valley and kills Filipino-American mailman Joseph Ileto. The next day, Furrow turns himself in, saying he intended to send "a wake-up call to America to kill Jews." Furrow, who has a history of mental illness, eventually pleads guilty and is sentenced to two life terms without parole, plus 110 years in prison.
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Furrow is pro-Führer


November 5, 1999
FBI agents arrest James Kenneth Gluck in Tampa, Fla., after he wrote a 10-page letter to judges in Jefferson County, Colo., threatening to "wage biological warfare" on a county justice center. While searching his home, police find the materials needed to make ricin, one of the deadliest poisons known. Gluck later threatens a judge, claiming that he could kill 10,000 people with the chemical. After serving time in federal prison, Gluck is released in early 2001.
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loner...


December 5, 1999
Two California men, both members of the San Joaquin Militia, are charged with conspiracy in connection with a plot to blow up two 12-million-gallon propane tanks, a television tower and an electrical substation in hopes of provoking an insurrection. In 2001, the former militia leader, Donald Rudolph, pleads guilty to plotting to kill a federal judge and blow up the propane tanks, and testifies against his former comrades. Kevin Ray Patterson and Charles Dennis Kiles are ultimately convicted of several charges in connection with the conspiracy. They are expected to be released from federal prison in 2021 and 2018, respectively.
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smells like something I've seen before. Rudolph, if you're another lying backstabber... I'll... I'll add you to the list!
http://www.kcra.com/news/294699/detail.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia73.html
http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=004XIF
apparently there weren't any crazy bloggers on this one. sob.

3 violent verdicts


December 8, 1999
Donald Beauregard, head of a militia coalition known as the Southeastern States Alliance, is charged with conspiracy, providing materials for a terrorist act and gun violations in connection with a plot to bomb energy facilities and cause power outages in Florida and Georgia. After pleading guilty to several charges, Beauregard, who once claimed to have discovered a secret map detailing a planned un takeover mistakenly printed on a box of Trix cereal, is sentenced to five years in federal prison. He is released in 2004, a year after accomplice James Troy Diver is freed following a similar conviction.
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http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia26.html
rofl the idiot thought the cop was a friend even though he said he was a cop... true story. guilty.
0 links on James Troy Diver, 0 chance I'm putting him in with such a general statement

1 violent verdict


March 9, 2000
Federal agents arrest Mark Wayne McCool, the one-time leader of the Texas Militia and Combined Action Program, as he allegedly makes plans to attack the Houston federal building. McCool, who was arrested after buying powerful C-4 plastic explosives and an automatic weapon from an undercover FBI agent, earlier plotted to attack the federal building with a member of his own group and a member of the antigovernment Republic of Texas, but those two men eventually abandoned the plot. McCool, however, remained convinced the un had stored a cache of military materiel in the building. In the end, he pleads guilty to federal charges that bring him just six months in jail.
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http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=905
not that many links to go around on google but I'll say yes, guilty, just because I don't like his name. Yea. McCool, who do you think you are? You're not cool man, not cool.

1 violent verdict



April 28, 2000
Immigration attorney Richard Baumhammers, himself the son of Latvian immigrants, goes on a rampage in the Pittsburgh area against non-whites, killing five people and critically wounding a sixth. Baumhammers had recently started a tiny white supremacist group, the Free Market Party, that demanded an end to non-white immigration into the United States. In the end, the unemployed attorney, who was living with parents at the time of his murder spree, is sentenced to death for targeting his victims because of their race.
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racist


March 1, 2001
As part of an ongoing probe into a white supremacist group, federal and local law enforcement agents raid the Corbett, Ore., home of Fritz Springmeier, seizing equipment to grow marijuana and weapons and racist literature. They also find a binder notebook entitled "Army of God, Yahweh's Warriors" that contains what officials call a list of targets, including a local federal building and the FBI's Oregon offices. Springmeier, an associate of the anti-Semitic Christian Patriots Association, is eventually charged with setting off a diversionary bomb at an adult video store in Damascus, Ore., in 1997 as part of a bank robbery carried out by accomplice Forrest Bateman Jr. Another 2001 raid finds small amounts of bomb materials and marijuana in Bateman's home. Eventually, Bateman pleads guilty to bank robbery and Springmeier is convicted of the same charges, and both are sentenced to nine years.
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religious


April 19, 2001
White supremacists Leo Felton and girlfriend Erica Chase are arrested following a foot chase that began when a police officer spotted them trying to pass counterfeit bills at a Boston donut shop. Investigators quickly learn Felton heads up a tiny group called Aryan Unit One, and that Chase and Felton, who had already obtained a timing device, planned to blow up black and Jewish landmarks and possibly assassinate black and Jewish leaders. They also learn another amazing fact: Felton, a self-described Aryan, is secretly biracial. Felton and Chase are eventually convicted of conspiracy, weapons violations and obstruction, and Felton is also convicted of bank robbery and other charges. Felton, who previously served 11 years for assaulting a black taxi driver, is sentenced to serve more than 21 years in federal prison, while his one-time sweetheart draws a lesser term.
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racist


Oct. 14, 2001
A North Carolina sheriff's deputy pulls over Steve Anderson, a former "colonel" in the Kentucky Militia, on a routine traffic stop as he heads home to Kentucky from a white supremacist gathering in North Carolina. Anderson, who has issued violent threats against officials for months via an illegal pirate radio station and is an adherent of racist Christian Identity theology, pulls out a semi-automatic weapon and peppers the deputy's car with bullets before driving his truck into the woods and disappearing for 13 months. Officials later find six pipe bombs in Anderson's abandoned truck and 27 bombs and destructive devices in his home. In the end, Anderson apologizes for his actions and pleads guilty. He is sentenced on a variety of firearms charges to 15 years in federal prison.
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classic

1 real violent verdict


Dec. 5, 2001
Anti-abortion extremist Clayton Lee Wagner, who nine months earlier escaped from an Illinois jail while awaiting sentencing on weapons and carjacking charges, is arrested in Cincinnati, Ohio. Wagner's odyssey began in September 1999, when he was stopped driving a stolen camper in Illinois and told police he was headed to Seattle to murder an abortion provider. He escaped in February 2001 and, while on the lam, mailed more than 550 hoax anthrax letters to abortion clinics and posted an Internet threat warning abortion clinic workers that "if you work for the murderous abortionist, I'm going to kill you." Wagner is eventually sentenced to 30 years on the Illinois charges, including his escape. In Ohio, he is sentenced to almost 20 years more, to be served consecutively, on various weapons and car theft charges related to his time on the run. In late 2003, he also is found guilty of 51 federal terror charges, but his sentencing is deferred.
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loner


Dec. 11, 2001
Jewish Defense League chairman Irving David Rubin and a follower, Earl Leslie Krugel, are arrested in California and charged with conspiring to bomb the offices of U.S. Rep. Darrel Issa (R-Calif.) and the King Fahd Mosque in Culver City. Authorities say a confidential informant taped meetings with the two in which the bombings were discussed and Krugel said the jdl needed "to do something to one of their filthy mosques." Rubin later commits suicide in prison, officials say, just before he is to go on trial in late 2002. Krugel pleads guilty to conspiracy in both plots, and testifies that Rubin conspired with him. Krugel faces a mandatory 10-year sentence, and could receive up to life in federal prison.
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racist.



Jan. 4, 2002
Neo-Nazi National Alliance member Michael Edward Smith is arrested after a car chase in Nashville, Tenn., that began when he was spotted sitting in a car with a semi-automatic rifle pointed at Sherith Israel Pre-School, run by a local synagogue. In Smith's car, home and storage unit, officials find an arsenal that includes a .50-caliber rifle, 10 hand grenades, 13 pipe bombs, binary explosives, semi-automatic pistols, ammunition and an array of military manuals. They also find teenage porn on Smith's computer and evidence that he carried out computer searches for Jewish schools and synagogues. In one of his e-mails, Smith wrote that Jews "perhaps" should be "stuffed head fIRSt into an oven." In the end, Smith is sentenced on weapons and explosives charges to more than 10 years in prison.
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nazi.




Feb. 8, 2002
The leader of a militia-like group known as Project 7 and his girlfriend are arrested after an informant tells police the group is plotting to kill judges and law enforcement officers in order to kick off a revolution. David Burgert, who has a record for burglary and is already wanted for assaulting police officers, is found in the house of girlfriend Tracy Brockway along with an arsenal that includes pipe bombs and 25,000 rounds of ammunition. Also found are "intel sheets" with personal information about law enforcement officers, their spouses and children. Although officials are convinced the Project 7 plot was real, Burgert ultimately is convicted only of weapons charges and draws a seven-year sentence; six others are also convicted of or plead guilty to weapons charges. Brockway gets a suspended sentence for harboring a fugitive.
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bawww the poor good ol' FBI couldn't get him convicted on conspiracy... what a sad day for mankind.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.activism.militia/browse_thread/thread/207a50ccdd2a9089
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/03/01/national/main502580.shtml
http://cursor.org/stories/fascismxiv.php
they weren't even charged of conspiracy? weird...
all I know is:

1 non-violent verdict


July 19, 2002
Acting on a tip, federal and local law enforcement agents arrest North Carolina Klan leader Charles Robert Barefoot Jr. for his role in an alleged plot to blow up the Johnson County Sheriff's Office, the sheriff himself and the county jail. Officers find more than two dozen weapons in Barefoot's home. They also find bombs and bomb components in the home of Barefoot's son, Daniel Barefoot, who is charged that same day with the arson of a school bus and an empty barn. The elder Barefoot — who broke away from the National Knights of the KKK several months earlier to form his own harder-line group, the Nation's Knights of the KKK — is charged with weapons violations and later sentenced to more than two years. In 2003, Barefoot's wife and three men are charged with the murder of a former associate. Police say the murder may have been related to the alleged bombing plot.
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kkk


Aug. 22, 2002
Tampa area podiatrist Robert J. Goldstein is arrested after police, called by Goldstein's wife after he allegedly threatened to kill her, find more than 15 explosive devices in their home, along with materials to make at least 30 more. Also found are homemade C-4 plastic explosives, grenades and mines, a .50-caliber rifle, semi-automatic weapons, and a list of 50 Islamic worship centers in the area. The most significant discovery is a three-page plan detailing plans to "kill all 'rags'" at the Islamic Society of Pinellas County. Eventually, two other local men are also charged in connection with the plot, and Goldstein's wife is arrested for possessing illegal destructive devices. In the end, Goldstein pleads guilty to plotting to blow up the Islamic Society and is sentenced to more than 12 years in federal prison.
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loner


Oct. 3, 2002
Officials close in on long-time antigovernment extremist Larry Raugust at a rest stop in Idaho, arrest him and charge him with 16 counts of making and possessing destructive devices, including pipe bombs and pressure-detonated booby traps. He is accused of giving one explosive device to an undercover agent, and is also named as an unindicted co-conspirator in a plot with colleagues in the Idaho Mountain Boys militia to murder a federal judge and a police officer, and to break a friend out of jail. A deadbeat dad, Raugust is also accused of helping plant land mines on property belonging to a friend whose land was seized by authorities over unpaid taxes. He eventually pleads guilty to 15 counts of making bombs and is sentenced to federal prison. Raugust is expected to be released in 2008.
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loner

Jan. 8, 2003
Federal agents arrest Matt Hale, the national leader of the neo-Nazi World Church of the Creator (WCOTC), as he reports to a Chicago courthouse in an ongoing copyright case over the name of his group. Hale is charged with soliciting the murder of the federal judge in the case, Joan Humphrey Lefkow, who he has publicly vilified as someone bent on the destruction of his group. (Although Lefkow originally ruled in wcotc's favor, an appeals court found that the complaint brought by an identically named church in Oregon was legally justified, and Lefkow reversed herself accordingly.) In guarded language captured on tape recordings, Hale is heard agreeing that his security chief, an FBI informant, should kill Lefkow. Hale is eventually found guilty and sentenced to serve 40 years in federal prison.
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nazi

Jan. 18, 2003
James D. Brailey, a convicted felon who once was selected as "governor" of the state of Washington by the antigovernment Washington Jural Society, is arrested after a raid on his home turns up a machine gun, an assault rifle and several handguns. One informant tells the FBI that Brailey was plotting to assassinate Gov. Gary Locke, both because Locke was the state's real governor and because he was Chinese-American. A second informant says that Brailey actually went on a "dry run" to Olympia, carrying several guns into the state Capitol building to test security. Eventually, Brailey pleads guilty to weapons charges and is sentenced to serve 15 months in prison. He is released in February 2004.
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http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/453/804/484789/
http://www.adl.org/learn/news/James_Brailey.asp

nonviolent conviction


Feb. 13, 2003
Federal agents in Pennsylvania arrest David Wayne Hull, imperial wizard of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and an adherent of the anti-Semitic Christian Identity theology, alleging that Hull has arranged to buy hand grenades to blow up abortion clinics. The FBI says Hull also illegally instructed followers on how to build pipe bombs. In addition, Hull published a newsletter in which he urged readers to write Oklahoma bomber Tim McVeigh "to tell this great man goodbye." Hull eventually is found guilty of weapons violations and sentenced to 12 years in federal prison.
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kkk


April 3, 2003
Federal agents arrest antigovernment extremist David Roland Hinkson in Idaho and charge him with trying to hire an assassin on two occasions in 2002 and 2003 to murder a federal judge, a prosecutor and an IRS agent involved in a tax case against him. Hinkson, a businessman who earned millions of dollars from his Water Oz dietary supplement company but refused to pay almost $1 million in federal taxes, is convicted in 2004 of 26 counts related to the tax case. In early 2005, a federal jury finds him guilty in the assassination plot as well.
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loner


April 10, 2003
The FBI raids the Noonday, Texas, home of William Krar and storage facilities he rented in the area, discovering an arsenal that includes more than 500,000 rounds of ammunition, 65 pipe bombs and remote-control briefcase bombs, and almost two pounds of deadly sodium cyanide. Also found are components to convert the cyanide into a bomb capable of killing thousands, along with white supremacist and antigovernment material. Investigators soon learn Krar was stopped earlier in 2003 by police in Tennessee, who found in his car several weapons and coded documents that seemed to detail a plot. Krar refuses to cooperate, and details of that alleged plan are never learned. Eventually, he pleads guilty to possession of a chemical weapon and is sentenced to more than 11 years in prison.
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loner


June 4, 2003
Federal agents in California announce that former accountant John Noster, in prison since November 2002 for car theft, is under investigation for plotting a major terrorist attack. Noster was first arrested as part of a car theft ring investigation, but officials who found incendiary devices in his stolen camper continued to probe his activities. Eventually, they find in various storage facilities three pipe bombs, six barrels of jet fuel, five assault weapons, cannon fuse, a large amount of ammunition and $188,000 in cash. Law enforcement officials, who describe Noster as an "antigovernment extremist," allege at a press conference that he "was definitely planning" on an attack, but they do not elaborate.
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loner


Oct. 10, 2003
Police arrest Norman Somerville after finding a huge weapons cache on his property in northern Michigan that includes six machine guns, a powerful anti-aircraft gun, thousands of rounds of ammunition, hundreds of pounds of gunpowder, and an underground bunker. They also find two vehicles Somerville calls his "war wagons," and on which prosecutors later say he planned to mount machine guns as part of a plan to stage an auto accident and then massacre arriving police. Officials describe Somerville as an antigovernment extremist enraged over the death of Scott Woodring, a Michigan Militia member killed by police a week after Woodring shot and killed a state trooper during a standoff. Somerville eventually pleads guilty to weapons charges and is sentenced to six years in prison.
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nonviolent conviction


April 1, 2004
Neo-Nazi Skinhead Sean Gillespie videotapes himself as he firebombs Temple B'nai Israel, an Oklahoma City synagogue, as part of a film he is preparing to inspire other racists to violent revolution. In it, Gillespie boasts that instead of merely pronouncing the white-supremacist "14 Words" slogan ("We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White children"), he will carry out 14 violent attacks. A former member of the neo-Nazi Aryan Nations, Gillespie is found guilty of the attack and faces a minimum 35-year sentence without parole.
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nazi


Oct. 13, 2004
Ivan Duane Braden, a former National Guardsman discharged from an Iraq-bound unit after superiors noted signs of instability, is arrested after checking into a mental health facility and telling counselors about plans to blow up a synagogue and a National Guard armory in Tennessee. The FBI reports that Braden told them he'd planned to go to a synagogue wearing a trench coat stuffed with explosives and get himself "as close to children and the rabbi as possible," a plan Braden also outlined in notes found in his home. In addition, he intended to take and kill hostages at the Lenoir City Armory, before blowing the armory up. Eventually, Braden, who also possessed neo-Nazi literature and reportedly hated blacks and Jews from an early age, pleads guilty to conspiring to blow up the armory. He faces a mandatory 10-year minimum prison sentence on two separate charges.
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not fair at all.. the counselor, instead of helping the nut just tattle on him...
hes a loner. all alone


Oct. 25, 2004
FBI agents in Tennessee arrest farmhand Demetrius "Van" Crocker after he allegedly tried to purchase ingredients for deadly sarin nerve gas and C-4 plastic explosives from an undercover agent. The FBI alleges that Crocker, who local officials say was involved in a white supremacist group in the 1980s, tells the agent that he admires Hitler and hates Jews and the government. He allegedly also says "it would be a good thing if somebody could detonate some sort of weapon of mass destruction on Washington, D.C." Crocker is charged with trying to get explosives to destroy a building and other charges, and faces more than 20 years in prison if convicted.
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racist


May 20, 2005
Officials in New Jersey arrest two men they say asked a police informant to build them a bomb. Craig Orler, who has a history of burglary arrests, and Gabriel Garafa, said to be a leader of the neo-Nazi World Church of the Creator and a member of a racist Skinhead group called The Hated, were charged with illegally selling 11 guns to police informants. Carafa allegedly gave one informant 60 pounds of urea to use in building him a bomb, but never said what the bomb was for. Police say they moved in before the alleged bombing plot developed further because they were concerned about the pair's activities. They taped Orler saying in a phone call that he was seeking people in Europe to help him go underground.
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please god, make it stop

from this, 12 cases had at least one convicted violent militia member (violent defined as one who was deemed beyond a reasonable doubt in court to either conspiring to commit or having committed assault, bombing, all the good stuff), and 18 violent militia members total

7 cases were bunk, turning up no conspiracy at all (no violent militia members)
38 militia members indicted of conspiracy or violence were acquitted of it (may have been convicted of illegal weapons, bombs, minor charges, but no violence or conspiracy to violence even though they were charged with that)

What this means is that for every 1 militia member convicted of violence, theres 2 acquitted of violence.
And well if you read through you'll see that most of those convicted are just sad, sad nutjobs who wouldn't have the guts to do what they say in a hundred years. Like I've read in a forum, when they say "you won't take me alive " they are actually saying "you won't take me with a full bladder"!

0 of those cases were like, uh, realized conspiracies. Miraculously when it comes to militias, the FBI and BATF were able to stop them just in time! Thank God we have the FBI, or we'd have one and more bombings per year coming from these dangerous militia nutjobs. Thats right, 19 cases where the FBI saved your ass, and 0 cases where the extremist militias won. Unbeliveable right? Well you better believe it, you're no conspiracy theorist are you? Only the government can blame people for conspiracies, not the opposite!

I'm still only aware of one cop murdered still. (barely mentioned on this list, they mention his friend who got federal weapon convictions, some sweet weaponry that dude had. No, I'm not promoting illegal weapons. but this murder is on the miac)

I'll move on to other lists but I will only post my thoughts and results if a poor soul (L?) shows interest.
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
D10
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Brazil3409 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-14 16:04:13
June 14 2009 16:03 GMT
#254
The only thing worth conservating is the spirit of change.

This topic has become a monolith of text damn.
" We are not humans having spiritual experiences. - We are spirits having human experiences." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
June 14 2009 16:31 GMT
#255
To put it simply.

1) having 10 pipe bombs buried in your lawn is not something people do for fun. neither is having a bunch of illegal explosives. These weren't firecrackers.
2) even if you explain away/ignore/blame law enforcement(lol) 80%+ of the conspiracies/explosives charges/shootings, you still end up with a far higher rate of violent crime for the militia. and a far FAR higher rate of attempting to bomb shit.
3) the intellectual foundations of the movement are 100% based on fucking the government up when you believe they've become tyrannical as a form of check to keep power vested in the people.

I went through all of the cases and read all of the appeals of the instances you've listed, and they aren't even remotely close to the only incidents, or examples of atypical court cases.

Basically there's nothing left to talk about; You're just ignoring the mountain of information in front of you about how mixing explosives and radical thought could possibly lead to a need to watch over these people. Why? Because despite reading through a list of cases in which there are clearly fucking dangerous people with dangerous equipment, you brush it off as the actions of a lawful and happy group. You'd have been better to say that the protections guaranteed in the second and fifth amendment don't allow for the revolutionary phoenix rebirth of the republic if the tyrant republic can shut it down easily, which they might be able to do if they've got tabs on the people who can bomb their military bases.

What's more, there's MORE shit being done, like people stockpiling browning 50 cal machine guns. I don't even need to dip into that pool of events because there's no point; the listed report events are more than enough to prove a threat worthy of profiling.
The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
reincremate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
China2213 Posts
June 14 2009 17:08 GMT
#256
On April 15 2009 18:54 lOvOlUNiMEDiA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 15 2009 18:05 D10 wrote:
I have nothing against money.

But I think capitalism is self destructive.

I hope we someday develop a sustentabilism or something, our core doctrine as a race cant be a character flaw(greed).

Can you imagine if Colbert became the president after obamas second term ?


It seems to me that stupidity is self-destructive, not capitalism. We could imagine an entirely private market that, for reasons beyond altruism, was interested in developing the lives of the least wealthy. It seems to me that there are two reasons it is smart (and self-interested) for wealthy investors to funnel money to the poor.

(1) Funneling large amounts of investment would squelch much of the persausive power of marxist rhetoric by demonstrating that capitalism does not lead to labor for base substinence.
(2) Happy, culturally developed workers contribute to a market in many more ways than disgrunteled, mindless laborers.



You can imagine a Utopian capitalist system all you want, but it could never happen. Your reasoning is apparently completely based on gut feelings. Why wouldn't corporations already have started treating their employees well if these two reasons are enough incentive? What's stopping them? Government regulation?
Yurebis
Profile Joined January 2009
United States1452 Posts
June 14 2009 17:47 GMT
#257
Yea I may be brushing off 33% of the people but you're ignoring the underlying agenda. Both feds and media spinning the cases to make the militia look bad off 18 violence indicted members. The feds charge way more people than they can prove, the media doesn't look at the verdicts but only the charges, reinforcing that the feds are always right.

If it were that bad you'd certainly have one conspiracy really happening in these 14 years before the feds are able to prevent it? The two real assaults (one ex-member peppering a cops car, one member shooting a state trooper dead... that's the only thing the MIAC had that my list didn't) were not conspiracies but rather reactionary freaked out nuts with a gun, and sadly there will always be a small fraction of people in every movement that may do that.

How about instead of demonizing the whole movement, we stop being scared of guns and educate people to follow the law and teach them what firearms should be used for? Don't have to mention the constitution if you want, just tell them what's universally right. Don't kill, don't assault, use guns for defense only if strictly necessary, self-defense, etc. But you don't see that in the media. You see messages of anti-gun sentiment saying they're bad and people who have it are criminals or dangerous extremists, stay away from them, tattle on your neighbors who have guns even if they're legal, etc.

You got every right to be outraged at militia members who have illegal bombs and illegal weapons and I am too, but thats no reason to believe they intended do any harm, they're either hardcore gun enthusiasts or are stockpiling for what they believe its the end of the world, the feds and payed informants are the only ones to testify that they wanted to kill and bomb; it goes to court, and only 33% of them are indicted off the feds' claims.

Without the feds provocateurs, payed informants, and bargained pleas, I believe there would be no conspiracies period, realized or planned. They have a very good reason for wanting to demonize everyone, but that isn't the safety of the population and officials, it's assuring the public that their service is necessary, that expanding their operation and raising money for their agency and operations is crucial to stop this threat. Very much like the war on terror has been overblown, much like the war on drugs has been exaggerated, much like the war on education is absurd. Now what, war on carbon dioxide (we exhale it btw), public health, and "domestic terrorism"?

This one war against domestic terror may not be as big as the others but it's just more of the same, power-hungry feds fearmongering the public and sucking it dry with more taxes. It's the same method, problem reaction solution. And they're grouping defensive militias with aggressive and racist/religious groups to make the numbers bigger. All I'm asking is, please reconsider the aggressiveness of the militia, contrast their mission statements with those other groups, and understand why there's a witch hunt out for them.

But I digress! I agree on disagreeing.
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-14 19:10:27
June 14 2009 19:08 GMT
#258
On June 15 2009 02:47 Yurebis wrote:
Yea I may be brushing off 33% of the people but you're ignoring the underlying agenda. Both feds and media spinning the cases to make the militia look bad off 18 violence indicted members. The feds charge way more people than they can prove, the media doesn't look at the verdicts but only the charges, reinforcing that the feds are always right.

If it were that bad you'd certainly have one conspiracy really happening in these 14 years before the feds are able to prevent it? The two real assaults (one ex-member peppering a cops car, one member shooting a state trooper dead... that's the only thing the MIAC had that my list didn't) were not conspiracies but rather reactionary freaked out nuts with a gun, and sadly there will always be a small fraction of people in every movement that may do that.

How about instead of demonizing the whole movement, we stop being scared of guns and educate people to follow the law and teach them what firearms should be used for? Don't have to mention the constitution if you want, just tell them what's universally right. Don't kill, don't assault, use guns for defense only if strictly necessary, self-defense, etc. But you don't see that in the media. You see messages of anti-gun sentiment saying they're bad and people who have it are criminals or dangerous extremists, stay away from them, tattle on your neighbors who have guns even if they're legal, etc.

You got every right to be outraged at militia members who have illegal bombs and illegal weapons and I am too, but thats no reason to believe they intended do any harm, they're either hardcore gun enthusiasts or are stockpiling for what they believe its the end of the world, the feds and payed informants are the only ones to testify that they wanted to kill and bomb; it goes to court, and only 33% of them are indicted off the feds' claims.

Without the feds provocateurs, payed informants, and bargained pleas, I believe there would be no conspiracies period, realized or planned. They have a very good reason for wanting to demonize everyone, but that isn't the safety of the population and officials, it's assuring the public that their service is necessary, that expanding their operation and raising money for their agency and operations is crucial to stop this threat. Very much like the war on terror has been overblown, much like the war on drugs has been exaggerated, much like the war on education is absurd. Now what, war on carbon dioxide (we exhale it btw), public health, and "domestic terrorism"?

This one war against domestic terror may not be as big as the others but it's just more of the same, power-hungry feds fearmongering the public and sucking it dry with more taxes. It's the same method, problem reaction solution. And they're grouping defensive militias with aggressive and racist/religious groups to make the numbers bigger. All I'm asking is, please reconsider the aggressiveness of the militia, contrast their mission statements with those other groups, and understand why there's a witch hunt out for them.

But I digress! I agree on disagreeing.


The underlying agenda of WHAT exactly? Propagating our current liberal democracy/capitalist system? NO. SHIT. If that underlying agenda wasn't there, who would care if you bombed a government building or national symbol? That would be precisely the viewpoint adopted during a transition period between one form of government/self organization to another. Who cares if you kill the Czar? Who cares if you're tearing down Batista controlled institutions? Etc.

Go look at your opening posts in this discussion, combined with what you actually knew at that point. What was YOUR agenda? Repeating talking points from a libertarian blog? You didn't even fucking read what you were bitching about and accusing me YOUR mistake. What was the blogger's agenda throwing out obviously false bullshit? Look at the majority of your posts: they're claiming that militias have no agenda and that they're perfect saints who wouldn't hurt a fly; obviously false. The two main libertarian figureheads in this discussion "you + bloggers" are also confirmed liars, so what does that tell me about your agenda? Look at my argumentation from earlier posts: your 'agenda' viewpoint basically makes ANY news/information/facts which are contrary to right wing groups in general or militia in particular irrelevant because you reason that they are biased.

That's what I called partisan for partisanship's sake.

to break down a few points:

You got every right to be outraged at militia members who have illegal bombs and illegal weapons and I am too, but thats no reason to believe they intended do any harm
Uh, you haven't been outraged in the least about militia members having guns that can shoot down low flying planes or having explosives. In the very same sentence you pretend having pipebombs in no way indicates that they intended to do any harm. Militia members getting caught with this stuff aren't to be expected of actually using them, so why get angry, right?

Well, then, what ELSE do you use pipebombs for? If they were trying to mine expensive ores or relandscape, why would they hide them in their lawn? Why would they use pipes to surround them? The signature shrapnel spray of the pipebomb isn't designed to redecorate your lawn or make a hole in the ground: its designed to be a cheap, timer controlled version of a fragmentation grenade that gets around the fact that you will kill yourself if you throw one in an open area.

You can make very good arguments for the use of guns in hunting or for self defence (especially in rural areas), but for a fucking BOMB?

All I'm asking is, please reconsider the aggressiveness of the militia, contrast their mission statements with those other groups


A mission statement like engage in a

war against domestic terror


Ok. What happens when your definition of domestic terror is a bit off?
All of the above incidents?

Jews are causing domestic terror: shoot up a holocaust museum.
Abortion doctors are causing domestic terror: shoot up a clinic.
Federal judges are abetting domestic terror: shoot them in the head and bomb their buildings.
Government is taxing us to death: bomb an IRS building.

Sure there are going to be plenty of people who are straight arrow about it, but at the end of the day that doesn't justify not keeping an eye out for plots coming from these groups. So, to come back to your original point; the outrage is justified? Then maybe you can accept that someone would publish a report about it.
The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
Yurebis
Profile Joined January 2009
United States1452 Posts
June 14 2009 20:40 GMT
#259
Why do you keep tying it all together like they're all one and the same groups...

there has been 0 bombings by real militias (not racist or religious groups)
1 murder
1 police car peppered
18 militia members convicted of conspiracy to do bomb/kill
38 acquitted of conspiracy to bomb/kill

So no it's not justified, my opinion is the same as before because the bottom line is still the same, there is not even a handful (I thought at the beginning that there would be at least like three cases? nope) of cases where militia members were caught doing what the feds feared they'd do.

The agenda is not to protect the republic or the people, lol, it's to increase the size of federal government and their paychecks, they want to look like heroes, and they may very well have been in a few racist and loner cases, but it's still unjustified to tie those guys to an organized and defensive militia.

Video time yay
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
June 14 2009 20:56 GMT
#260
Why do you keep tying it all together like they're all one and the same groups...
Because the other groups form militias, operate under the same ideological framework, and the encompassing framework is right wing extremism, which includes all of these related groups. That would be what both reports were about, the reports this thread is about and the reports you are attempting to discredit.

Heads up: Race, Religion and Tax motivated militias are militias.

And again, those aren't the only instances, and most of the people acquitted of being in a bomb plot were still found having stockpiles of illegal bombs.

But yes, thanks for restating points I've knocked down and ignoring others that you can't.
The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
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