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On October 31 2012 13:04 Mavvie wrote:
I really appreciate your effort BuiBui, I'll be sure to check out these replays. Just curious, what level are you? You seem pretty high level.
@ahmedaak88 it's an idea, but here's some mental math (ie. gasless 3 hatch won't work):
-Lair starts at 7:20 usually
-Lair takes 80 seconds. Lair finish is 8:40
-Tunneling claws takes about 2 minutes... so it's about 10:30.
I dunno, I guess it would finish in time. You could get it if you want, it would help.
Edit: Yeah I guess it hurts your roach count. I guess it isn't viable.
NP. ^_^
I move between high and mid masters, and back again.
Last season, my main and my Smurf, were both around 1500 masters, with a lot of messing around and scotch.
I was also at MLG Raleigh, got knocked by gosu stx in the winners bracket 
The exact build I used today in zvp I never done before today. So I am sure I can hammer out a cleaner mid game opening.
Edit:
I will also add that this opening was ALOT of fun, and will continue to craft the build.
Edit Edit:
Added some descriptions to each vid
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BuiBui, I'm just watching the first replay.
I actually just played it on ladder, cut drones at 60 and massed roach/ling and actually roflstomped his army with a triple pronged flank (defended it on cloud!!!) Since Protoss is designed the way it is, it took me 30 more minutes to actually kill him (I fucked up a blord/infestor push and lost all my broods, he lost all his stalkers, I had a bank and he didn't so I won). Sort of irrelevant, but after I clean up his army he just says "infestors are a fucking joke" and goes on to tell me about how my race is broken, etc etc. I find it SO dumb that Protoss players will do a 2 base all-in, and complain when it gets defended with ease but he's still in the game that my race is "broken", "imbalanced", etc.
I'm not sure what the best followup is. Roach/ling max? Aggressive ling/infestor into 16:00 broods? Infestor/spine turtle into 15:00 broods? Mutas?
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Ok finished watching the replay.
I really don't like it  It's a 2 base lair opener....but you don't research drops when lair finishes, you wait a good while. You don't take your third until like 10:00, only retarded Protoss players would both not scout for your third and attack you when you're on two bases. The best part is that banes/drops aren't ready for the standard PartinG timing of 10:15; drops + banes finish close to 11:00. Protoss's macro is TERRIBLE, his army is so small and he doesn't attack you until after 11:00.
I mean I guess it worked, but no one's doubting the effectiveness of banerain against immortal/sentry. The problem is the timing. You either stay on 2 bases and die to standard macro, or take a fast third and can't get drops out in time.
With a 5:00 gas -> lair first you can get drops in time, so that's something worth looking into IMO. Doesn't cut as many drones as a 4:30 gas, but still gets them up in time. You can get super fast mutas too (10:00ish).
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On November 01 2012 08:08 Mavvie wrote:
BuiBui, I'm just watching the first replay.
I actually just played it on ladder, cut drones at 60 and massed roach/ling and actually roflstomped his army with a triple pronged flank (defended it on cloud!!!) Since Protoss is designed the way it is, it took me 30 more minutes to actually kill him (I fucked up a blord/infestor push and lost all my broods, he lost all his stalkers, I had a bank and he didn't so I won). Sort of irrelevant, but after I clean up his army he just says "infestors are a fucking joke" and goes on to tell me about how my race is broken, etc etc. I find it SO dumb that Protoss players will do a 2 base all-in, and complain when it gets defended with ease but he's still in the game that my race is "broken", "imbalanced", etc.
I'm not sure what the best followup is. Roach/ling max? Aggressive ling/infestor into 16:00 broods? Infestor/spine turtle into 15:00 broods? Mutas?
Since he doesn't have an army, is low on probes, and has no 3rd, just keep denying his 3rd with roach/ling/festor (if you put up your infestation pit before the push). If he stays on 2base you can tech to broods, but you can probably break him with just the roach/ling/festor comp... just spam IT's over his wall while using the roach/ling to break his wall.
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On November 01 2012 08:11 Mavvie wrote:Ok finished watching the replay. I really don't like it It's a 2 base lair opener....but you don't research drops when lair finishes, you wait a good while. You don't take your third until like 10:00, only retarded Protoss players would both not scout for your third and attack you when you're on two bases. The best part is that banes/drops aren't ready for the standard PartinG timing of 10:15; drops + banes finish close to 11:00. Protoss's macro is TERRIBLE, his army is so small and he doesn't attack you until after 11:00. I mean I guess it worked, but no one's doubting the effectiveness of banerain against immortal/sentry. The problem is the timing. You either stay on 2 bases and die to standard macro, or take a fast third and can't get drops out in time. With a 5:00 gas -> lair first you can get drops in time, so that's something worth looking into IMO. Doesn't cut as many drones as a 4:30 gas, but still gets them up in time. You can get super fast mutas too (10:00ish).
That game was a mess, I agree. Like I said before I think the build can be made better. since it was on the fly.
Also. in the OTHER two replays, the protoss does not attack me off two base. Which I agree, a protoss that see's only two bases should just take a third and defend
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This is based on an alternate style I've been working on:
http://drop.sc/270235
This is vs high masters with a 9:00 moveout on Ohana. I don't even flank. The idea behind this build is to play standard, but at lair completion, instead of spending 100/100 for roach speed, go 100/100 for hydra den. Then play normal; don't build any hydras, don't get range. Just get infestation pit/upgrades/whatever you want. If he pushes out, build pure hydra/ling.
Basically the idea is to throw down a "safety" hydra den, since hydras are a lot better vs this comp than pure roach/ling. In general hydras are good vs 2-base pushes overall. I'm not sure why roach speed is that important, at least right after lair, unless you want to be aggressive. It is important, however, if you want to use it to defend vs immo/sentry, but I think hydras are just better than roaches in this situation.
The same concepts still apply; it's best to have a flank from at least 1 direction and great creep spread.
Any thoughts?
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Russian Federation216 Posts
About defending at high level.
SortOf just defend Squirtles sentry-immortal at ESWC, games was not casted, but via match history it was cleary that strategy (like against Recco yesterday). Looks like SortOf defend it in straight fight with roach-ling
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Canada16217 Posts
On November 03 2012 18:30 pprrii wrote:
About defending at high level.
SortOf just defend Squirtles sentry-immortal at ESWC, games was not casted, but via match history it was cleary that strategy (like against Recco yesterday). Looks like SortOf defend it in straight fight with roach-ling
MVPSniper handles the immortal sentry all in excellently, you should watch his games in the GSTL most recently in the SlayerS vs MVP match.
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On November 03 2012 18:36 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 18:30 pprrii wrote:
About defending at high level.
SortOf just defend Squirtles sentry-immortal at ESWC, games was not casted, but via match history it was cleary that strategy (like against Recco yesterday). Looks like SortOf defend it in straight fight with roach-ling
MVPSniper handles the immortal sentry all in excellently, you should watch his games in the GSTL most recently in the SlayerS vs MVP match.
For that specific game vs Arthur, the all-in came much later than PartinG's version. Sniper was already on full 3-base saturation due to taking his third at 3:40.
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On November 03 2012 19:09 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 18:36 NovemberstOrm wrote:On November 03 2012 18:30 pprrii wrote:
About defending at high level.
SortOf just defend Squirtles sentry-immortal at ESWC, games was not casted, but via match history it was cleary that strategy (like against Recco yesterday). Looks like SortOf defend it in straight fight with roach-ling
MVPSniper handles the immortal sentry all in excellently, you should watch his games in the GSTL most recently in the SlayerS vs MVP match. For that specific game vs Arthur, the all-in came much later than PartinG's version. Sniper was already on full 3-base saturation due to taking his third at 3:40.
Arthur also had poor execution on a map with tons of wide open space at the 3rd.
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Stephano did hold the all in from Pandatank nicely.
From 8 min, massing tons of units (onlt 53 drones) to kill pandatank as he comes out.
But pandatank doesnt go out at 9 but at 10/11 min.
Stephano builds spines in his 3rd, has an army there and counter attacks with a handful of roaches and zerglings to the natural. He destroys it but cannot go in the main.
Pandatank needs some times before being able to destroy the 3rd. Stephano trades army during the fight on the 3rd, and builds 6 spines in his natural.
Pandatank comes to attack the natural of steph, defended with 6 spines. He has 3 immortals, the Warp prism, and a gateway army. But stephano holds, because pandatank cant come under the spines. 2 base vs 1 base, once stephano has enough roaches, he destroys pandatank. GG !
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Russian Federation216 Posts
It was easy hold since so late move out
And yeah, Stephano do it it right, not 60+ drones, around 55 is good as i say in this thread already
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On November 03 2012 20:18 pprrii wrote:
It was easy hold since so late move out
And yeah, Stephano do it it right, not 60+ drones, around 55 is good as i say in this thread already
Early move out is auto loose since you cant defend a swarm of lings with sentries/immo only. Or you loose 10 forcefields in the trade.
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I love this thread. Sentry/immortal all-in is hard to hold but not because of anything Protoss does!
Its hard to hold because of what Zerg does: i.e. gasless 3 base roach/ling style. Stop doing that boring stuff and you will find easy ways to kill this all-in (and these don't imply zerg all-ins of their own).
Hint: who said all zergs need 3 bases and defend?
Good luck!
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The problem with any other style is it dies to standard macro play from Protoss. That's why we can't open 2 base muta or anything. In fact, 2 base muta hits AFTER blink is done on a fast twilight council.
What do you suggest Zergs do instead? I kind of like the 4:30 gas fast lair style, but that does cut into your drone count.
@Everyone: Soo defended Rain's sentry/immo by cutting drones at 62 and massing roach/ling. It was super effective! Although Rain did engage in the only place on the map that he could get 270 degree surrounded....lol.
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On November 05 2012 03:05 Mavvie wrote:
The problem with any other style is it dies to standard macro play from Protoss. That's why we can't open 2 base muta or anything. In fact, 2 base muta hits AFTER blink is done on a fast twilight council.
What do you suggest Zergs do instead? I kind of like the 4:30 gas fast lair style, but that does cut into your drone count.
@Everyone: Soo defended Rain's sentry/immo by cutting drones at 62 and massing roach/ling. It was super effective! Although Rain did engage in the only place on the map that he could get 270 degree surrounded....lol.
Regarding the first part of this. This is just not true. Any two base opener can work if you can read the protoss with good scouting, and know when to drone/expand or make units.
The three base style may be better vs the current meta game, (FFE) But it is much worse vs older meta games, 2 gates, 4 gates, 3 gate expands, ect.
I know you were NOT a fan of the bane ling drop games. But With other two base openers I have beaten Low Gm's and many High masters. Many of my peers/pro's have done so too.
Edit.
Furthermore,
I believe that zvp/pvz will develope further, with protoss doing more then 1 kind of opener 95% of the time. I think this will change the zerg meta game into something like zvt.
In zvt, terrans are doing many different openers, This forces many zergs to open 2 base style ---> expand, Like Dimaga and Scarlette.
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I mained as Zerg for a long time, and could almost never beat Immortal/Sentry. I probably had like a 90% loss percentage against it. I would get a game vs. P on Antiga and say to myself, "He's gonna fuckin' Immortal/Sentry," then I would scout it... then subsequently lose.
Then I switched to Protoss and now have a 90% win percentage with it. The only Zerg who has beaten me when I did Immortal/Sentry did something pretty cool.
On Cloud Kingdom he massed up Roach/Ling (cutting drones at like 50-55) and then made a GIANT concave at the bottom of the ramp out of my nat, so when I went to go down, he killed a bunch of my units. Even if I went around to the third he could have held a similar concave. Was pretty smart.
He told me that as soon as he thinks it's Immortal/Sentry he does this, which means that if it turns out it's just a 4 gate + robo into 3rd base he has to allin, which is fine.
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If you're having success vs. Sentry/Immortal, what upgrade are you getting for your units? Typically I'd get ranged attack asap because of the number of roaches I build but am having more trouble holding as I've moved into higher masters.
Should it be carapace or melee attack or is ranged attack the proper way to handle it?
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On November 06 2012 02:03 ShamW0W wrote:
If you're having success vs. Sentry/Immortal, what upgrade are you getting for your units? Typically I'd get ranged attack asap because of the number of roaches I build but am having more trouble holding as I've moved into higher masters.
Should it be carapace or melee attack or is ranged attack the proper way to handle it?
I prefer the +1 carapace because it helps glings to be a damage buffer for roaches/hydras. But i dont know if it's so good, since my win rate against immo sentry all in is at 20% ... : )
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On November 06 2012 02:03 ShamW0W wrote:
If you're having success vs. Sentry/Immortal, what upgrade are you getting for your units? Typically I'd get ranged attack asap because of the number of roaches I build but am having more trouble holding as I've moved into higher masters.
Should it be carapace or melee attack or is ranged attack the proper way to handle it?
Go for the +1 range attack everytime because at that point you are not sure what the toss is doing, +1 range attack is better all around, and then go for +1 carapace cause if you are able to defend the first wave of the all in, there is a second wave that can come with a slightly different composition : lots of zealots/sentries/immortals, but the toss can't have +2 attack at that point so your lings can deal with zealots more easely.
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EPT
