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Zen_Man, I'd really appreciate if you put some thoughts about the other players. I think you are over reading Making. I would hardly call his first post an attempt to bandwagon.
On July 06 2012 04:33 The_Zen_Man wrote:When Hopeless later states that he had no intention of anything like a bandwagon on Lazer, Mackin quickly change his opinion again, not mentioning anything about Lazer again, as his bandwagon failed. Mafia tends to want to not have opinions alone, and rather have some other people to back them up, while town has no reason to not go after someone alone.
Your just making so many assumptions. Talking about how mafia will play is just impossible. Unless you are mafia.
Instead of actually responding to what happends in the thread you choose to FoS a player who basically havn't said anything yet.
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On July 06 2012 05:08 Lazermonkey wrote:Zen_Man, I'd really appreciate if you put some thoughts about the other players. I think you are over reading Making. I would hardly call his first post an attempt to bandwagon. Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 04:33 The_Zen_Man wrote:When Hopeless later states that he had no intention of anything like a bandwagon on Lazer, Mackin quickly change his opinion again, not mentioning anything about Lazer again, as his bandwagon failed. Mafia tends to want to not have opinions alone, and rather have some other people to back them up, while town has no reason to not go after someone alone. Your just making so many assumptions. Talking about how mafia will play is just impossible. Unless you are mafia. Instead of actually responding to what happends in the thread you choose to FoS a player who basically havn't said anything yet.
Lazermonkey, i made one post about him, and it is my second since the game started, so i have not really over read him. I was going to post about other players too.
And yes, you can actually say how mafia will play, otherwise there would be no point in analysis, would it?
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On July 06 2012 05:19 The_Zen_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 05:08 Lazermonkey wrote:Zen_Man, I'd really appreciate if you put some thoughts about the other players. I think you are over reading Making. I would hardly call his first post an attempt to bandwagon. On July 06 2012 04:33 The_Zen_Man wrote:When Hopeless later states that he had no intention of anything like a bandwagon on Lazer, Mackin quickly change his opinion again, not mentioning anything about Lazer again, as his bandwagon failed. Mafia tends to want to not have opinions alone, and rather have some other people to back them up, while town has no reason to not go after someone alone. Your just making so many assumptions. Talking about how mafia will play is just impossible. Unless you are mafia. Instead of actually responding to what happends in the thread you choose to FoS a player who basically havn't said anything yet. Lazermonkey, i made one post about him, and it is my second since the game started, so i have not really over read him. I was going to post about other players too. And yes, you can actually say how mafia will play, otherwise there would be no point in analysis, would it? My point was that you can only analyze a player like Mackin that much.
Well a player can push scum agenda in several ways and saying that Mackin was trying to bandwagon when he write the first post is imo assuming too much.
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On July 06 2012 05:36 Lazermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 05:19 The_Zen_Man wrote:On July 06 2012 05:08 Lazermonkey wrote:Zen_Man, I'd really appreciate if you put some thoughts about the other players. I think you are over reading Making. I would hardly call his first post an attempt to bandwagon. On July 06 2012 04:33 The_Zen_Man wrote:When Hopeless later states that he had no intention of anything like a bandwagon on Lazer, Mackin quickly change his opinion again, not mentioning anything about Lazer again, as his bandwagon failed. Mafia tends to want to not have opinions alone, and rather have some other people to back them up, while town has no reason to not go after someone alone. Your just making so many assumptions. Talking about how mafia will play is just impossible. Unless you are mafia. Instead of actually responding to what happends in the thread you choose to FoS a player who basically havn't said anything yet. Lazermonkey, i made one post about him, and it is my second since the game started, so i have not really over read him. I was going to post about other players too. And yes, you can actually say how mafia will play, otherwise there would be no point in analysis, would it? My point was that you can only analyze a player like Mackin that much. Well a player can push scum agenda in several ways and saying that Mackin was trying to bandwagon when he write the first post is imo assuming too much.
I stated in my last post that i would post about other things too, so please let me do that now. It was only one post, which did not have that much text, so i was not over reading him .
Though I am still unsure on what else to post about right now.
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On July 05 2012 15:56 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 15:44 BassInSpace wrote:
Apologies for the late entrance, but my time zone makes it a bit hard to post concurrently with the rest of you. First of all, I don’t think harry’s lightning fast vote is as terrible as you make it out to be jingle; town has shown that it can obviously think for itself without jumping on mindless bandwagons. However, I would like to ask you hapahauli, what exactly is wrong with an anti-bandwagon stance? We want to actually encourage people to post their reads and think before voting, not going with the flow of the thread, which is what mafia likes doing. I can’t think of any situation where bandwagoning helps town, much like fake claiming doesn’t help. Lazermonkey’s long first post is similar to jingle’s anti-bandwagon stance, no? I’ll have a look at the other points against him later, as it seems a few others are FOSing him, but I need to head out now and just wanted to clarify with hapahauli.
Also, Mackin seems to have completely dropped off with no significant contributions whatsoever, and we KNOW he was around during most of the discussion during this first 24 hours. Not too sure about the other lurkers yet obviously, but I know JieXian and I will have similar post timing (see NMM XVIII) because we’re only 2 hours apart. Hi Bass and welcome to the game! My argument (re: anti-bandwagonning) is that it is more appropriate to take such a stance closer to the lynch deadline. I feel that taking such a strong policy early in the cycle stance can limit the amount of posts that players make. Players can post with less inhibition without such a stance in place, which makes for additional opportunities to make reads for townies (i.e, I may be discouraged from posting analysis on Mackin because I maybe seen as "bandwagonning" off of you). I'm all for this stance closer to lynch time, but it serves as nothing but an inhibition on posting this early in the game.
Bandwagoning allows for the exact opposite of what you say. Its to place a vote without looking at the reasoning or thought behind it. If you were to post analysis on Mackin, thats analysis not bandwagoning to me. Perhaps we're disagreeing on the meaning and taken in the context of your post, sounds like a fair statement. I disagree with your definition of 'bandwagon'.
Between the posts that I quoted regarding Release, two players had FOS'd him. You didn't explicitly say you had a FOS on Release but it did feel like it to me. Calling it 'huge' was overstepping things, and you maintain it wasn't a case at all, so I'll drop it, but I'm still seeing some underlying suspicion about Release.
Also:
On July 06 2012 05:42 3styla wrote:
/in
Wut?
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Hey guys, I've only caught up on what I've missed, but I want to provide some defense for myself from some FoS I've been getting. I feel it's a little unfair, but I'll explain myself each time someone has called me out.
On July 05 2012 15:44 BassInSpace wrote:
Also, Mackin seems to have completely dropped off with no significant contributions whatsoever, and we KNOW he was around during most of the discussion during this first 24 hours. Not too sure about the other lurkers yet obviously, but I know JieXian and I will have similar post timing (see NMM XVIII) because we’re only 2 hours apart.
Ok, so yeah dropped off but not exactly available 24/7 so it's not really that strange - just different time zones / bed times is all. I agree I haven't contributed too much, but call me out on anything I say and I'll justify it.
On July 05 2012 21:09 Lazermonkey wrote:
Some good analysis there Hapa. Although I can't really contribute anything on Mackin as his filter is just that long. I only find the first post of him to be intresting tho. I don't agree with my post be contradictory which I have already said a dozen of times. Yes, I did use bad wording but that's about it. Also look at the timing. Basically echoing what Hope had already said at that point. The other posts from him is indeed fluff, which is at best bad town play.
Overall Mackin is kinda null for me although with the slightest scum vibes due to his first post. I consider him a lurker atm and he really needs to post more before I make a clear read. TMG on the other hand i feel is playing in a very anti-town way. I'd say he is my number 2 scumread after Jingle atm.
Ok Lazer, I'm ready to contribute - I'll be pretty active for a good while if I have anything to add  As I said before, don't jump to point the FoS on me just because I have different sleeping times than others. I see the post isn't exactly contradictory now but it still is worded badly, and I think I was one of two who misinterpreted what he was saying about roleclaiming.
//
On July 06 2012 02:31 JieXian wrote:
My FOS is on Mackin for trying to light up fires and disappearing as town burns. His thoughtless posting reminds me so much of mafia behavior.
I would agree with you on that point except for the fact that if you read the thread you would realise I wasn't the only one trying to get people talking by saying stuff about their names. If anything I've been pro-town by trying to get people to post which I think worked in some small part, because now it's clearer to see people's stance on each other since they have actually been posting.
More posts in thread = more informed decisions - absolutely true in Mafia.
Also for Hapahauli, you're using words like "huge red flag" and "very anti town" when my motive was simply to get the ball rolling in this game. I feel this is very harsh for how little I've posted, but hopefully I'll have something to add when I re-read everyone's posts.
On July 06 2012 02:37 JieXian wrote:
Let's focus on lurkers like Mackin ATM. I know I might qualify as one but I have nothing to add to the lazer/hapa vs hopeless/release/jingle babbling
Back to JieXian: Focus on me all you want, I have nothing but valid reasons for posting what I have so far, call me out if you want an explanation.
[B]On July 06 2012 04:33 The_Zen_Man wrote:
So far, Mackin has not posted anything of worth, only tried a bandwagon and agreeing with other players.
Fos: Mackin
Hmm, I know you say I haven't posted anything of worth, but I disagree.
As I have stated above, that in my eyes, it's not so much as the content I had posted but the post itself to get people talking is the main reason for my post. Anyway, the way I see it, I haven't exactly "bandwagoned" I just agree putting pressure on players earlier on as it helps to get them talking.
Anyway, I'm gonna look into everyone's post again and post my thoughts on some of the other players...
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Is khorrus going to be replaced by 3styla?
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On July 06 2012 05:45 Hopeless1der wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 15:56 Hapahauli wrote:On July 05 2012 15:44 BassInSpace wrote:
Apologies for the late entrance, but my time zone makes it a bit hard to post concurrently with the rest of you. First of all, I don’t think harry’s lightning fast vote is as terrible as you make it out to be jingle; town has shown that it can obviously think for itself without jumping on mindless bandwagons. However, I would like to ask you hapahauli, what exactly is wrong with an anti-bandwagon stance? We want to actually encourage people to post their reads and think before voting, not going with the flow of the thread, which is what mafia likes doing. I can’t think of any situation where bandwagoning helps town, much like fake claiming doesn’t help. Lazermonkey’s long first post is similar to jingle’s anti-bandwagon stance, no? I’ll have a look at the other points against him later, as it seems a few others are FOSing him, but I need to head out now and just wanted to clarify with hapahauli.
Also, Mackin seems to have completely dropped off with no significant contributions whatsoever, and we KNOW he was around during most of the discussion during this first 24 hours. Not too sure about the other lurkers yet obviously, but I know JieXian and I will have similar post timing (see NMM XVIII) because we’re only 2 hours apart. Hi Bass and welcome to the game! My argument (re: anti-bandwagonning) is that it is more appropriate to take such a stance closer to the lynch deadline. I feel that taking such a strong policy early in the cycle stance can limit the amount of posts that players make. Players can post with less inhibition without such a stance in place, which makes for additional opportunities to make reads for townies (i.e, I may be discouraged from posting analysis on Mackin because I maybe seen as "bandwagonning" off of you). I'm all for this stance closer to lynch time, but it serves as nothing but an inhibition on posting this early in the game. Bandwagoning allows for the exact opposite of what you say. Its to place a vote without looking at the reasoning or thought behind it. If you were to post analysis on Mackin, thats analysis not bandwagoning to me. Perhaps we're disagreeing on the meaning and taken in the context of your post, sounds like a fair statement. I disagree with your definition of 'bandwagon'. Between the posts that I quoted regarding Release, two players had FOS'd him. You didn't explicitly say you had a FOS on Release but it did feel like it to me. Calling it 'huge' was overstepping things, and you maintain it wasn't a case at all, so I'll drop it, but I'm still seeing some underlying suspicion about Release. Also: Wut?
That makes alot of sense to me Hopeless and I totally agree. Bandwagoning is giving no real thought to the situation whereas when there is a clear reason for siding with someone such as terrible posts, I'm all for agreeing with them and I don't see it as "Bandwagoning"
Hapa what you said makes no sense to me. If I have made crappy posts, why wouldn't you side with Hopeless? It's hardly bandwagoning if you think you have anything to question me on. I have no inhibition to post and anyone who does have inhibition when people are stacking against them clearly has something to hide.
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On July 06 2012 05:45 Hopeless1der wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 15:56 Hapahauli wrote:On July 05 2012 15:44 BassInSpace wrote:
Apologies for the late entrance, but my time zone makes it a bit hard to post concurrently with the rest of you. First of all, I don’t think harry’s lightning fast vote is as terrible as you make it out to be jingle; town has shown that it can obviously think for itself without jumping on mindless bandwagons. However, I would like to ask you hapahauli, what exactly is wrong with an anti-bandwagon stance? We want to actually encourage people to post their reads and think before voting, not going with the flow of the thread, which is what mafia likes doing. I can’t think of any situation where bandwagoning helps town, much like fake claiming doesn’t help. Lazermonkey’s long first post is similar to jingle’s anti-bandwagon stance, no? I’ll have a look at the other points against him later, as it seems a few others are FOSing him, but I need to head out now and just wanted to clarify with hapahauli.
Also, Mackin seems to have completely dropped off with no significant contributions whatsoever, and we KNOW he was around during most of the discussion during this first 24 hours. Not too sure about the other lurkers yet obviously, but I know JieXian and I will have similar post timing (see NMM XVIII) because we’re only 2 hours apart. Hi Bass and welcome to the game! My argument (re: anti-bandwagonning) is that it is more appropriate to take such a stance closer to the lynch deadline. I feel that taking such a strong policy early in the cycle stance can limit the amount of posts that players make. Players can post with less inhibition without such a stance in place, which makes for additional opportunities to make reads for townies (i.e, I may be discouraged from posting analysis on Mackin because I maybe seen as "bandwagonning" off of you). I'm all for this stance closer to lynch time, but it serves as nothing but an inhibition on posting this early in the game. Bandwagoning allows for the exact opposite of what you say. Its to place a vote without looking at the reasoning or thought behind it. If you were to post analysis on Mackin, thats analysis not bandwagoning to me. Perhaps we're disagreeing on the meaning and taken in the context of your post, sounds like a fair statement. I disagree with your definition of 'bandwagon'. Between the posts that I quoted regarding Release, two players had FOS'd him. You didn't explicitly say you had a FOS on Release but it did feel like it to me. Calling it 'huge' was overstepping things, and you maintain it wasn't a case at all, so I'll drop it, but I'm still seeing some underlying suspicion about Release.
You seem to have switched gears rather quickly despite taking some significant time building a case against me. You're avoiding a confrontation with me despite me leveling serious accusations against your case and motivations. You are not addressing the instances of the false evidence (click) you brought up against me. Instead of answering my accusations, you bring up the most non-confrontational part of my post: my anti-bandwaggoning stance.
Finally, you post incredibly vague judgement on my "case" on Release. I'm very clear about my intent and simply use my post to ask him a question. You want to see what my FOS looks like? Take a look at these three posts (click). I have been very up front about when I am suspicious of someone. There is no "underlying suspicion." Your case has absolutely no basis, and I want some explanations about why you chose to attack me while taking me grossly out of context and using clearly false information.
I'm not done with you. I want some explanations.
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EBWOP:
@Hopeless1der: And just so you don't mistake my post as "underlying suspicion," I would like to make it perfectly clear what I think about your last two posts. You brought attention to a player who had not yet been attacked using false and out of context evidence. You immediately flip-flopped and avoided confrontation when presented with this. You are not pro-town, your goal has been to discredit my analysis so far and incite paranoia amongst the town.
You are mafia.
## Vote: Hopeless1der
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@ Mackin - I just wanted to get you to talk more while stopping the active players from post-banging. It looks like it worked, and I look forward to hearing more from you! The only two people on my FOS list right now are Hopeless1der and TMG26. You won't be on there any time soon if you keep posting without inhibition =)
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I'm not exactly sure of what to think yet. Nobody has clearly made any big bold statements but whoever the Mafia are, they sure are trying their best to confuse the shit out of me. I can see why people say Mafia is more rewarding the more time you spend looking at it, it is really difficult to make an informed decision when half of the people are lying to you
Release seems like he's on the town's side, as does Hapa, Zen and JieXian, who mostly has the same motive to get people talking as me. Many people have already given credible reasons for suspicion of others, including suspicion aimed at myself but I can see pretty much everyone isn't doing too bad at acting townie.
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On July 06 2012 07:15 Mackin wrote:I'm not exactly sure of what to think yet. Nobody has clearly made any big bold statements but whoever the Mafia are, they sure are trying their best to confuse the shit out of me. I can see why people say Mafia is more rewarding the more time you spend looking at it, it is really difficult to make an informed decision when half of the people are lying to you Release seems like he's on the town's side, as does Hapa, Zen and JieXian, who mostly has the same motive to get people talking as me. Many people have already given credible reasons for suspicion of others, including suspicion aimed at myself but I can see pretty much everyone isn't doing too bad at acting townie.
While I agree with that both Release and Hapa are getting people to talk. However why Le fuck is Zen_Man and JieXian on that list? Both theese guys have basically said nothing except for being suspicious of you because of low post count. And they were invisible on D1 where getting people to talk is prehaps the most important.
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Mackin, since you seem to be looking through the thread now, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on some of the cases brought forward so far. There are a few pretty big accusations flying around, and it would do us well to hear your input:
My case on Hopeless1der:
+ Show Spoiler +
Case vs. TMG26:
+ Show Spoiler +
Case vs. Release:
+ Show Spoiler +[url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349066¤tpage=10#182]EvulRabbits FOS on Release
[url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349066¤tpage=10#185]TMG's FOS on Release[/url]
These three are the major ones (only substantial FOS's) for now - I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on one or all of them.
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On July 06 2012 07:30 Lazermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 07:15 Mackin wrote:I'm not exactly sure of what to think yet. Nobody has clearly made any big bold statements but whoever the Mafia are, they sure are trying their best to confuse the shit out of me. I can see why people say Mafia is more rewarding the more time you spend looking at it, it is really difficult to make an informed decision when half of the people are lying to you Release seems like he's on the town's side, as does Hapa, Zen and JieXian, who mostly has the same motive to get people talking as me. Many people have already given credible reasons for suspicion of others, including suspicion aimed at myself but I can see pretty much everyone isn't doing too bad at acting townie. While I agree with that both Release and Hapa are getting people to talk. However why Le fuck is Zen_Man and JieXian on that list? Both theese guys have basically said nothing except for being suspicious of you because of low post count. And they were invisible on D1 where getting people to talk is prehaps the most important.
Let me clarify that Lazer, Zen and JieXian just haven't arisen my suspicions too much (the first part of the sentece where I say "Seem like he's on the town's side...." and I realise that what I've posted doesn't make perfect sense. What I meant was they hadn't aroused suspicion but when they did speak made points that any townie would want to make if they were unsure of my motives. The fact that they were invisible early doesn't say a whole lot to me (you mentioning talking in D1), as people can be online at vastly different times on a worldwide forum like this, so their "early talking" could be half way through the day etc.
Anyway after this post I'll move on to Hapu's question just give me some time to re-read it all 
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@Hapa:
Your case on Hopeless1der:
I don't know what to think here. It's like Hopeless is really trying to build a case against you, he builds up quite alot in the first post and when you make your stance clear in your response, his response is to back down immediately. Maybe he just wanted to question you and test the water a bit? I don't think he's trying to genuinely full on attack and point the FoS here. I don't know why he starts going on about Release, if I was thinking more suspiciously of him, he maybe just wanted the conversation to change quickly and forget about building a case on you.
Case vs. TMG26:
Unless his English is really bad, I can see some basis for thinking he isn't exactly on townie side. He may be trying to be really diplomatic for the purposes of going through to the next day, but then again mafia will try to act diplomatic while pushing accusations at the same time like he did in that first quoted post. It's hard to know whats going on in that first post, because his English really isn't great so I'm undecided. I think the indecision may be out of fear of being lynched on day1 townie, but it's hard to know whether the indecision is because he isn't sure and doesn't want to accuse someone innocent or because he has a reason to be indecisive... I don't understand what he's trying to achieve. It does seem odd/slightly scummy but still undecided.
Bass said:
I don't quite understand. So you think that hopeless and jingle are mafia because hopeless defended jingle, but jingle and harry are actually your prime suspects? I'd just like this point clarified.
All in all, TMG is my strongest read so far.
I think that's a good point actually. why would harry be one of TMG's prime suspects if hopeless had defended jingle (if he is assuming jingle to be scummy?)
Onto the case against Release:
I think TMG's case against Release isn't so strong - anyone putting out an early FoS isn't that serious in D1 early stages as it keeps the discussion going and there is no strong points in the post you (hapa) have linked, whereas Evul brings up a better worded, but still annoyingly confusing case against him. I can see why he calls out certain things Release has said, but nothing said actually sounds too scummy to me, but I know I could easily be missing something.
Anyway, I'm getting really tired, damn GMT time so I might have to goto bed soon
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Oh and I might as well put my thoughts on Jingle since I won't be back for hours... Jingle looks like the type of Mafia player who is so good they cruise along for days without people realising he's Mafia (when he is playing as it). I'm totally not saying he is scum, I honestly just can't get a good read from checking through his posts so far. Everyone else I'm meeeh on because I'll fall asleep on the keyboard if I read for much longer
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EPT
