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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 104

Forum Index > General Games
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lightman
Profile Joined April 2005
United States731 Posts
October 24 2011 21:41 GMT
#2061
I am sticking to my previous analysis. 18. b4
Chuck Norris owns the greatest Poker Face of all-time. It helped him win the 1983 WSOP holding just a Get out of Jail Free Monopoloy card, and a green #4 card from the game UNO, against an AAA KK flop and his rival folding AK after Chuck raised him ALL-IN
hype[NZ]
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Japan412 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-24 21:49:46
October 24 2011 21:43 GMT
#2062
18.b4

+ Show Spoiler +
It's better now than it ever was. Black's dark square bishop is semi-pinned since 18...Bd6 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 and he is just going backwards.

So perhaps 18...a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Bd6 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.Ne3, or if 18...Ba6 we can eventually play Nb3 and our position looks pretty good (e.g. 18.b4 Ba6 19.Bb2 Bd6 20.Nb3)
GenesisX
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada4267 Posts
October 25 2011 00:00 GMT
#2063
On October 25 2011 02:05 Bill Murray wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 02:01 mastergriggy wrote:
An even better counter to f4 for black, + Show Spoiler +
Bc5, and then we straight out lose a pawn. If we take back with rook, he takes pawn and then the rook. We just lose material flat out.

i obviously meant bc5.


Won't we win in a trade if 18. f4 Bc5 ? We can take his rook with 19. Rxe8, and if he kills rook we can take his bishop?? If he Bxd4, we can move our rook anywhere on row 8 or Rxc8. Please explain x_x
133 221 333 123 111
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
October 25 2011 01:01 GMT
#2064

[image loading]

[image loading]



I counter Bill as an abstain so far.
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
October 25 2011 01:02 GMT
#2065
This seems to be the most colourful voting since move 1.

I think it's very nice. Playing Re8 was already worth it.
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
October 25 2011 05:34 GMT
#2066
On October 25 2011 09:00 GenesisX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 02:05 Bill Murray wrote:
On October 25 2011 02:01 mastergriggy wrote:
An even better counter to f4 for black, + Show Spoiler +
Bc5, and then we straight out lose a pawn. If we take back with rook, he takes pawn and then the rook. We just lose material flat out.

i obviously meant bc5.


Won't we win in a trade if 18. f4 Bc5 ? We can take his rook with 19. Rxe8, and if he kills rook we can take his bishop?? If he Bxd4, we can move our rook anywhere on row 8 or Rxc8. Please explain x_x



Bxd4 is with check. If we take the rook, he takes pawn and checks us and then we take his rook.
Write your own song!
cz
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3249 Posts
October 25 2011 05:52 GMT
#2067
Liking Nf1 to Ne3 here. Nb1-c3 is interesting too but c6 shuts that knight down, though it also is really passive for him.
greggy
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom1483 Posts
October 25 2011 07:50 GMT
#2068
On October 25 2011 03:38 Bill Murray wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Well, for instance, I feel like in your line we can put him in a worse position than you think
I explored it, and I don't see him making the move Rb3 when you make it, for instance
What would he gain from that? We can easily defend that pawn as you showed in moving the knight subsequently

In your other line you have him playing c6, so I'm just going to fucking stop there


+ Show Spoiler +
So what would you play instead of Rb3? Rb5? Rb2? Ba6? Come on, stop giving half-arsed, half-true responses and come up with a decent line for once.
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 17:38:21
October 25 2011 13:32 GMT
#2069
edited with a couple of additional lines and corrections per the posts below

OK, guys, here goes. Because our decision this move is so complicated, I took it on myself to organize the posted analysis into a tree. Never again! It was much more tedious than I'd expected it to be, and while there's value in having the analysis organized this way, it's just not worth it for one guy to do it by hand. We might discuss starting a Google document or something similar for us to post an analysis tree on.

Meanwhile, for this move, although I thought about ditching the effort, I had already put so much into it that I persevered to the bottom of page 102 (which contains a substantial majority of the posted analysis). Here it is; hopefully some of you find it useful.
Analysis tree
(through the bottom of page 102)

Important Note: "Summaries" are intended to reflect the state of the analysis, not some canonical assessment of the position. Thus, if the summary says, "After moves X, Y, Z, looks bad for White," all that means is that someone has come to that conclusion and no one has contradicted him. In other words, you should use this as a guide for what positions to look at, not what moves to vote for.

+ Show Spoiler [18. Nf1] +
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [18...c5] +

+ Show Spoiler [19. Be3] +
given by greggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [19...Rxb2] +
20. dxc5 Ba6 21. Reb1 Reb8 22. Rxb2 Rxb2 23. Bd4
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [23...Rc2] +
24. Ne3 given by greggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
Summary: greggy offered this as a good line for White.
+ Show Spoiler [23...Rb5] +
given by EvilNalu with the comment "at the very least black gets his pawn back".
Diagram/PGN viewer

However, I believe that EvilNalu overlooked the fact that Black's Bd7 is needed to defend f6. I don't see a way for Black to get his pawn back in this line.
Summary: seems fine for White.
Summary: greggy offered this as a good line for White.

+ Show Spoiler [19...cxd4] +
20. Bxd4 given by greggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
Summary: greggy offered this as a good line for White.

+ Show Spoiler [19...c4] +
given by EvilNalu
Diagram/PGN viewer
Summary: Looks very good for Black.
Summary: After 19... c4, looks very good for Black.

+ Show Spoiler [19. dxc5] +
19...Bxc5 20.Rxe8 Kxe8 21.b4 Bd4 22.Ra2 given by EvilNalu with the comment "Because 18...c5 results in such simplifications, I think black has to avoid it."
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
On October 24 2011 04:29 EvilNalu wrote:
Because 18...c5 results in such simplifications, I think black has to avoid it.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 19. dxc5 Bxc5 20.Rxe8 Kxe8 21.b4 Bd4 22.Ra2
On October 24 2011 04:29 EvilNalu wrote:
Because 18...c5 results in such simplifications, I think black has to avoid it.

+ Show Spoiler [18...Bd6] +

+ Show Spoiler [19. Ne3] +
given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [19...Rb3] +
20. Bd2 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [20...c6] +
given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [21. Bc3] +
21...Ba6 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [22. Ng4] +
given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
I think white has a slight advantage.

+ Show Spoiler [22. Nf5] +
given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
looks good too

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 21...Ba6 22. Ng4
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
I think white has a slight advantage.

+ Show Spoiler [21. Bb4] +
given by mastergriggy
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
looks really interesting, but I don't think it'll work


+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 21. Bc3 Ba6 22. Ng4
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
I think white has a slight advantage.

+ Show Spoiler [20...Rxb2] +
21. Nxd5 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [21...Rxe1] +
Rxe1 22. Bxe1 Ke6 23.Ne3given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair.

+ Show Spoiler [21...Rxd2?] +
22. Nxf6+ given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
Summary: Black blunders the pawn and the exchange.
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 21. Nxd5 Rxe1 22. Bxe1 Ke6 23.Ne3
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 20. Bd2 Rxb2 21. Nxd5 Rxe1 22. Bxe1 Ke6 23.Ne3
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair.

+ Show Spoiler [19...c6] +
given by EvilNalu
Diagram/PGN viewer
On October 24 2011 06:28 EvilNalu wrote:
How does white progress here given that his bishop and knight can't move and Rb1 is now unavailable due to Bxa3?

+ Show Spoiler [20. Ra2] +
a5 21. Bd2 a4 22. Bc3
Diagram/PGN viewer
On October 24 2011 09:59 EvilNalu wrote:
perhaps something like [the above] is viable, however the Bc3 lines aren't too appealing because we are basically turning our bishop into a big pawn.
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 20... a5 21. Bd2 a4 22. Bc3
On October 24 2011 09:59 EvilNalu wrote:
perhaps something like [the above] is viable, however the Bc3 lines aren't too appealing because we are basically turning our bishop into a big pawn.


+ Show Spoiler [20. b4] +
20...a5 21. bxa5 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [21...Ra6] +
22. Bd2 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [22...Rb2] +
23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote:
looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4
On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote:
looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black.

+ Show Spoiler [22...Rb3] +
23. Ng4 Rxe1 24. Rxe1 Be7 25. Bb4 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote:
will win white a pawn.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 23. Ng4 Rxe1 24. Rxe1 Be7 25. Bb4
On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote:
looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black.

On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote:
I think b4 is safe to play once we rearrange the pieces.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 22...Rb2 23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4
On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote:
looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black.

+ Show Spoiler [21. Rb3] +
22. Re2 Ba6 23. Rb2 Reb8 24. Rab1 Bc4 25. Rxb3 Rxb3 26. Rxb3 Bxb3 27. Nf5 given by greggy as a good line for us.
Diagram/PGN viewer
Summary: given by greggy as a good line for us.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 20...a5 21. bxa5 Ba6 22. Bd2 Rb2 23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4
On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote:
looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black.

+ Show Spoiler [19...Kc6] +
given by dtvu
Diagram/PGN viewer
On October 24 2011 10:01 dtvu wrote:
I don't like 18. Nf1 due to 18. ... Bd6, we would be on the back foot if we respond with 19. Ne3 then black plays 19... Kc6! ... black frees up his white bishop for the h3 diagnonal.



+ Show Spoiler [19. Rxe8] +
19...Kxe8 20. Ne3 given by EvilNalu
Diagram/PGN editor
On October 24 2011 09:59 EvilNalu wrote:
I think we should also look at whether it makes sense to take 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 before playing Ne3 in these lines. Trades take the pressure off our e file and simplify.

On October 24 2011 10:01 dtvu wrote:
I don't like 18. Nf1 due to 18. ... Bd6, we would be on the back foot if we respond with ... 19. Rxe8 Kxe8, black frees up his white bishop for the h3 diagnonal.

Summary: unclear

+ Show Spoiler [18...a5] +
19. Ne3 given by greggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [19...Kc6] +
20. Bd2 Rxb2 21. Bxa5 Rb3 22. Nc2 Bf5 23. Nb4+ Bxb4 24. Bxb4 given by greggy as a good line for us.
Diagram/PGN viewer
Summary: given by greggy as a good line for us.

+ Show Spoiler [19...c6] +
defending the pawn without exposing the King 20. Bd2 as in greggy's line after 19...Kc6 20. a4 locking down our Queenside and reactivating the threat to the b-pawn by eliminating our counter-threat to the a-pawn
Diagram/PGN viewer
While we technically retain our extra pawn, it's hard for me to see a way to make progress in this position.
Summary: While we technically retain our extra pawn, it's hard for me to see a way to make progress in this position.
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 19. Ne3 c6 20. Bd2 a4, it's hard for me to see a way to make progress.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 18...a5 19. Ne3 c6 20. Bd2 a4, it's hard for me to see a way to make progress.

+ Show Spoiler [18. b4] +
Diagram/PGN viewer

18...a5 19. bxa5 Ba6 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
...it doesn't look like our position is the best.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 18...a5 19. bxa5 Ba6
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
...it doesn't look like our position is the best.
Others disagree with mastergriggy's assessment of the position.

+ Show Spoiler [18. Nb1] +
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [18...Rb3] +
19. Nc3 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

Here mastergriggy says that "Nc3 greatly weakens the move [...Rb3]". However, I don't see an easy way for us to free our position while preserving the b2 pawn in this line.
Summary: Mastergriggy likes this line for White. I like it for Black.

+ Show Spoiler [18...Bd6] +
19. Rxe8 Kxe8 20. Nc3 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
an interesting end game and I'd say ... a slight advantage for white.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 19. Rxe8 Kxe8 20. Nc3
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
an interesting end game and I'd say ... a slight advantage for white.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 18...Rb3 19. Nc3, mastergriggy seems to like this line for White, but I think it is good for Black.

+ Show Spoiler [18. b3] +
Diagram/PGN viewer
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
b3 prevents 18...Rb3 and weakens 18...a5. Additionally, it allows white to respond to 19...Bd6 with 20. [Bb2]
18...Bd6 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [19. Bb2] +
Bf4 20. Bc3 Bxd2 21. Bxd2 Rxb3 22. Bb4 given by mastergriggy, who says, "[This line] gives back the pawn but gives white great mobility and he should be able to capitalize on the weak black pawns while maintaining all his pawns. Not sure how favorable this is for white however.
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
18. b3 Bd6 19. Bb2 Bf4 20. Nf1 Bf4 21. Bc3 Nxd2 22. Bxd2 Rxb3 23. Bb4 gives back the pawn but gives white great mobility and he should be able to capitalize on the weak black pawns while maintaining all his pawns. Not sure how favorable this is for white however.

+ Show Spoiler [19. Rxe8] +
trading off Rooks to reduce the pressure on us and generally simplify the game 19...Kxe8 forced 20. g3 to forestall ...Bf4 (the move that led to Black's recapturing the pawn in mastergriggy's line following 19. Bb2)
Diagram/PGN viewer
As a plan for continuing to make progress here, we might be able to maneuver our Bishop into play via Bb2-c3, as A-tan suggests. Failing that, we might activate it via a4, Ba3, as I think someone suggested a long time ago, but I no longer remember who.
Summary: we keep our pawn and trade off a pair of Rooks, while keeping the board somewhat closed.

+ Show Spoiler [19. Re3] +
a thematic move in general; here in particular, guarding against the mate threat and adding a defender to b3 Perhaps the most aggressive continuation for Black is 19...Bf4 20. Rxe8 Kxe8
Diagram/PGN viewer
where the position's a little tight, but I believe that either 21. b4 or 21. Rb1 will allow us to end up keeping our pawn.
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
we keep our pawn and trade off a pair of Rooks, although the board is slightly more open than after 19. Rxe8 (and Black's Bishops are correspondingly more annoying).

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 18...Bd6 19. Rxe8 Kxe8 20. g3, we keep our pawn and trade off a pair of Rooks, while keeping the board somewhat closed.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-26 01:05:24
October 25 2011 15:22 GMT
#2070
Meanwhile, after spending a lot of time looking at the position, including looking at just about all of the analysis posted, I'm still not sure I have a full handle on it, but I've come to my decision.

I vote for 18. b3. I prefer this to 18. b4, but I'm all right with the latter as well. I don't like the other moves being discussed as much, although if someone made a good case for 18. Re3, I'd be listening.

As usual, the excellent jdseemoreglass has made a very cogent, rational post on our position, which after studying the position on my own, I find that I almost entirely agree with. The only place where I differ is in preferring 18. b3 to 18. b4, though perhaps that's just a matter of taste. Further details below.
+ Show Spoiler [rationale/thoughts on the position] +
jd's post covers almost everything. To elaborate:
  • 18. Nf3 looks nice at a glance, and it has the definite merit of being fast (tempo matter here) but on closer look, f3 is not the necessarily most valuable place for our Knight in this position. All it accomplishes is to defend e1 (useful), and d4 (less useful, as Black's main way to threaten the pawn is ...c5, after which we can most likely 'defend' the pawn as effectively by initiating the exchange), and it has practically nowhere to go from f3 except back where it came from, as greggy and others have pointed out.

    In some lines that involve exchanging off the Rooks on the e-file, it may be useful to have a Knight on f3, to defend against ...Re1+, but those are the only lines where I see an Nf3 really helping us out. Black doesn't have to go in those, and if he doesn't, our Knight is stuck doing nothing for us for a while. That's why I don't favour playing Nf3 this move, although it was the move I liked most at first glance.

  • Re3 is a nice move in general: very flexible, and useful to us in a lot of lines without being committal. However, some of its flexibility has been lost for the moment after ...Re8. For example, we cannot safely leave the e-file (e.g. with a future Rf3) until we have taken better care of our back rank, where Black threatens mate if we're careless.

    The specific Black response that has me leery of 18. Re3 is ...c5 (pointed out by EvilNalu in a different line). This move, which we have had to reckon with in almost every line since the middlegame began, becomes particularly strong with a Rook on e3, as ...Bxc5 gains a tempo while threatening the Rook. Now that Black has played ...Re8 as well, this line all but forces an exchange of Rooks, which would make 18. Re3 simply a wasted tempo, over lines where we exchange Rooks without having moved our Rook from e1.

    A key line to look at, if we want to consider playing this move, is the line where Black forces the issue immediately with 18...c5. The first few moves are fairly forced: here they are, in a PGN viewer. Black has some pressure on our position here, and he has the Bishop pair on an open board. Can we keep our pawn and fend him off?

  • Most other moves, though they have their points, don't do enough to address our issues on the Queenside, as jdseemoreglass pointed out in the above post. ...a5 is not just any old move, that we can afford to take lightly--it's a very real threat that we need to prepare for. If Ng5 manages to get as far as ...a4, without our adequately preparing for it, then we'll have grave difficulties in keeping our pawn while at the same time making progress in the position. The same thing holds for ...c5-c4, if he manages to play it (which is why the exchange dxc5 is mostly forced in most lines where Black plays ...c5), and another move that we need to be concerned about, if we move the Knight away, is the blockading move ...Rb3.

    The threat raised by all these moves, essentially, is of Black's locking down our Queenside so that we have no space to maneuver, while continuing to maintain his threat to the b-pawn. If we're not careful, we could be left in a situation where we have to either return the pawn, or tie down our pieces to its defence--in neither case making progress.

    This isn't just the opinion of me and jdseemoreglass and whoever else on the team: Ng5 himself expressed the opinion that if Black could push the pawn to a4 in these positions, he could hold the draw. He's given us an extra move to meet it now, but that does not mean that we should stop taking it seriously or assume that he never plans to play it. (The argument that since he has delayed ...a5 by a move allows us to delay our response by a move as well is flawed, as most of our alternatives do not simply delay addressing ...a5 but actually weaken our ability to address it. For example, if we move our Knight, we no longer have that piece guarding b3.)

    I don't think that enough attention has been paid to 18...a5 in most of the posted analysis. It's the move I expect in almost every line, and it's a strong drawing resource for Black, at the least, imo.

  • b4 will most likely be met, as ever, with ...a5. However, at this point in the game, it seems that we can play bxa5 in relative safety, for a change. Here, ...Re8 actually helps us, as if Black moves his Be7, we can exchange Rooks, simplifying the position and taking pressure off us.

    This exchange will probably lead to an open board, where Black's Bishop pair is strong, and he still has the edge in mobility, but most of the pressure is off us, and we retain our extra pawn, which has now become passed. Here's one particular line that it might not implausibly lead to: PGN viewer.

    Is our pawn advantage enough here? Can we force it through to a win, particularly given that the Queening square of our passed pawn is on the colour that our Bishop does not control? I'm not sure.

    In general, I'd rather not rush to play bxa5. That's why I favour the more flexible
  • 18. b3. This simple-, perhaps even awkward-seeming move, actually accomplishes a lot of things:
    • It prevents the blockading move ...Rb3.
    • It prepares the possible (but not necessarily necessary!) response b4 (where we can keep the pawn on the b-file) if Black plays ...a4.
    • It prepares a square for our Bishop to move to. While we don't have to play Bb2, it's good to have the option, for a couple of reasons:
      • It can be a good answer to ...c5, not only defending the d4 pawn with a piece that (unlike the Knight) cannot be threatened by ...Bc5, but presenting a veiled threat to the f6 pawn down the line as well.
      • It clears the back rank, which can be crucial in providing us with options for meeting the threats raised by 17...Re8

    • It guards c4, both from the potential Bishop that Black might want to place there, and, perhaps even more importantly, from the pawn that Black might want to place there. This last point can be crucial, because it means that we afford to take our time in addressing ...c5, rather than being forced to play dxc5 whenever Black chooses to force it.

Therefore, my vote goes to b3, as the more flexible of our options for addressing Black's threat to lock down our Queenside.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 16:12:20
October 25 2011 15:27 GMT
#2071
and finally, here's the current tally for the most wide-open election we've had all game:
Move 18 votes

+ Show Spoiler [votes] +
18. Nf1: 2 (mastergriggy, EvilNalu)
18. Nf3: 1 (Cloud9157)
18. b4: 5 (Malli, jdseemoreglass, Bill Murray, itsjustatank, lightman, hype[NZ])
18. h3: 0 (Bill Murray)
18. f4: 1 (timh, keyStorm)
18. Nb1: 1 (Chezus)
18. b3: 3 (wizard944, qrs, A-tan)
Abstain: (hp.Shell, Bill Murray, timh)
+ Show Spoiler [bar graph] +
[image loading]
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
A-tan
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6 Posts
October 25 2011 16:09 GMT
#2072
18. b3 with the idea of Bb2, Bc3.
greggy
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom1483 Posts
October 25 2011 16:17 GMT
#2073
qrs, you haven't covered Nf1 at all, and it's probably the most reasonable move white has (imho)
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
October 25 2011 16:25 GMT
#2074
On October 25 2011 22:32 qrs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

OK, guys, here goes. Because our decision this move is so complicated, I took it on myself to organize the posted analysis into a tree. Never again! It was much more tedious than I'd expected it to be, and while there's value in having the analysis organized this way, it's just not worth it for one guy to do it by hand. We might discuss starting a Google document or something similar for us to post an analysis tree on.

Meanwhile, for this move, although I thought about ditching the effort, I had already put so much into it that I persevered to the bottom of page 102 (which contains a substantial majority of the posted analysis). Here it is; hopefully some of you find it useful.
Analysis tree
(through the bottom of page 102)

Important Note: "Summaries" are intended to reflect the state of the analysis, not some canonical assessment of the position. Thus, if the summary says, "After moves X, Y, Z, looks bad for White," all that means is that someone has come to that conclusion and no one has contradicted him. In other words, you should use this as a guide for what positions to look at, not what moves to vote for.

+ Show Spoiler [18. Nf1] +
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [18...c5] +

+ Show Spoiler [19. Be3] +
given by greggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [19...Rxb2] +
20. dxc5 Ba6 21. Reb1 Reb8 22. Rxb2 Rxb2 23. Bd4
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [23...Rc2] +
24. Ne3 given by greggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
Summary: greggy offered this as a good line for White.
+ Show Spoiler [23...Rb5] +
given by EvilNalu with the comment "at the very least black gets his pawn back".
Diagram/PGN viewer

However, I believe that EvilNalu overlooked the fact that Black's Bd7 is needed to defend f6. I don't see a way for Black to get his pawn back in this line.
Summary: seems fine for White.
Summary: greggy offered this as a good line for White.

+ Show Spoiler [19...cxd4] +
20. Bxd4 given by greggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
Summary: greggy offered this as a good line for White.

+ Show Spoiler [19...c4] +
given by EvilNalu
Diagram/PGN viewer
Summary: Looks very good for Black.
Summary: After 19... c4, looks very good for Black.

+ Show Spoiler [19. dxc5] +
19...Bxc5 20.Rxe8 Kxe8 21.b4 Bd4 22.Ra2 given by EvilNalu with the comment "Because 18...c5 results in such simplifications, I think black has to avoid it."
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
On October 24 2011 04:29 EvilNalu wrote:
Because 18...c5 results in such simplifications, I think black has to avoid it.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 19. dxc5 Bxc5 20.Rxe8 Kxe8 21.b4 Bd4 22.Ra2
On October 24 2011 04:29 EvilNalu wrote:
Because 18...c5 results in such simplifications, I think black has to avoid it.

+ Show Spoiler [18...Bd6] +

+ Show Spoiler [19. Ne3] +
given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [19...Rb3] +
20. Bd2 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [20...c6] +
given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [21. Bc3] +
21...Ba6 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [22. Ng4] +
given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
I think white has a slight advantage.

+ Show Spoiler [22. Nf5] +
given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
looks good too

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 21...Ba6 22. Ng4
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
I think white has a slight advantage.

+ Show Spoiler [21. Bb4] +
given by mastergriggy
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
looks really interesting, but I don't think it'll work


+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 21. Bc3 Ba6 22. Ng4
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
I think white has a slight advantage.

+ Show Spoiler [20...Rxb2] +
21. Nxd5 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [21...Rxe1] +
Rxe1 22. Bxe1 Ke6 23.Ne3given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair.

+ Show Spoiler [21...Rxd2?] +
22. Nxf6+ given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
Summary: Black blunders the pawn and the exchange.
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 21. Nxd5 Rxe1 22. Bxe1 Ke6 23.Ne3
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 20. Bd2 Rxb2 21. Nxd5 Rxe1 22. Bxe1 Ke6 23.Ne3
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair.

+ Show Spoiler [19...c6] +
given by EvilNalu
Diagram/PGN viewer
On October 24 2011 06:28 EvilNalu wrote:
How does white progress here given that his bishop and knight can't move and Rb1 is now unavailable due to Bxa3?

+ Show Spoiler [20. Ra2] +
a5 21. Bd2 a4 22. Bc3
Diagram/PGN viewer
On October 24 2011 09:59 EvilNalu wrote:
perhaps something like [the above] is viable, however the Bc3 lines aren't too appealing because we are basically turning our bishop into a big pawn.
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 20... a5 21. Bd2 a4 22. Bc3
On October 24 2011 09:59 EvilNalu wrote:
perhaps something like [the above] is viable, however the Bc3 lines aren't too appealing because we are basically turning our bishop into a big pawn.


+ Show Spoiler [20. b4] +
20...a5 21. bxa5 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [21...Ra6] +
22. Bd2 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

+ Show Spoiler [22...Rb2] +
23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote:
looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4
On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote:
looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black.

+ Show Spoiler [22...Rb3] +
23. Ng4 Rxe1 24. Rxe1 Be7 25. Bb4 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote:
will win white a pawn.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 23. Ng4 Rxe1 24. Rxe1 Be7 25. Bb4
On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote:
looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black.

On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote:
I think b4 is safe to play once we rearrange the pieces.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 22...Rb2 23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4
On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote:
looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black.

+ Show Spoiler [21. Rb3] +
22. Re2 Ba6 23. Rb2 Reb8 24. Rab1 Bc4 25. Rxb3 Rxb3 26. Rxb3 Bxb3 27. Nf5 given by greggy as a good line for us.
Diagram/PGN viewer
Summary: given by greggy as a good line for us.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 20...a5 21. bxa5 Ba6 22. Bd2 Rb2 23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4
On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote:
looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black.

+ Show Spoiler [19...Kc6] +
given by dtvu
Diagram/PGN viewer
On October 24 2011 10:01 dtvu wrote:
I don't like 18. Nf1 due to 18. ... Bd6, we would be on the back foot if we respond with 19. Ne3 then black plays 19... Kc6! ... black frees up his white bishop for the h3 diagnonal.



+ Show Spoiler [19. Rxe8] +
19...Kxe8 20. Ne3 given by EvilNalu
Diagram/PGN editor
On October 24 2011 09:59 EvilNalu wrote:
I think we should also look at whether it makes sense to take 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 before playing Ne3 in these lines. Trades take the pressure off our e file and simplify.

On October 24 2011 10:01 dtvu wrote:
I don't like 18. Nf1 due to 18. ... Bd6, we would be on the back foot if we respond with ... 19. Rxe8 Kxe8, black frees up his white bishop for the h3 diagnonal.

Summary: unclear

+ Show Spoiler [18...a5] +
19. Ne3 Kc6 20. Bd2 given by greggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [20...Rxb2] +
21. Bxa5 Rb3 22. Nc2 Bf5 23. Nb4+ Bxb4 24. Bxb4 given by greggy as a good line for us.
Diagram/PGN viewer
Summary: given by greggy as a good line for us.

+ Show Spoiler [20...a4] +
21. Bc3
Diagram/PGN viewer
While we technically retain our extra pawn, it's hard for me to see a way to make progress in this position.
Summary: While we technically retain our extra pawn, it's hard for me to see a way to make progress in this position.
+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 19. Ne3 Kc6 20. Bd2 a4, it's hard for me to see a way to make progress.


+ Show Spoiler [18. b4] +
Diagram/PGN viewer

18...a5 19. bxa5 Ba6 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
...it doesn't look like our position is the best.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 18...a5 19. bxa5 Ba6
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
...it doesn't look like our position is the best.
Others disagree with mastergriggy's assessment of the position.

+ Show Spoiler [18. Nb1] +
Diagram/PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler [18...Rb3] +
19. Nc3 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer

Here mastergriggy says that "Nc3 greatly weakens the move [...Rb3]". However, I don't see an easy way for us to free our position while preserving the b2 pawn in this line.
Summary: Mastergriggy likes this line for White. I like it for Black.

+ Show Spoiler [18...Bd6] +
19. Rxe8 Kxe8 20. Nc3 given by mastergriggy
Diagram/PGN viewer
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
an interesting end game and I'd say ... a slight advantage for white.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 19. Rxe8 Kxe8 20. Nc3
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
an interesting end game and I'd say ... a slight advantage for white.

+ Show Spoiler [summary] +
After 18...Rb3 19. Nc3, mastergriggy seems to like this line for White, but I think it is good for Black.

+ Show Spoiler [18. b3] +
Diagram/PGN viewer
On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:
b3 prevents 18...Rb3 and weakens 18...a5. Additionally, it allows white to respond to 19...Bd6 with 20. [Bb2]
18...Bd6 19. Bb2 Bf4 20. Nf1 Bf4 21. Bc3 Nxd2 22. Bxd2 Rxb3 23. Bb4 given by mastergriggy, who says, "[This line] gives back the pawn but gives white great mobility and he should be able to capitalize on the weak black pawns while maintaining all his pawns. Not sure how favorable this is for white however." As the given line is illegal, I do not know what line mastergriggy meant to give.



My bad with that last line Qrs, here's the corrected version without the five illegal moves for + Show Spoiler +
b3: 18. b3 Bd6 19. Bb2 Bf4 20. Bc3 Bxd2 21. Bxd2 Rxb3 22. Bb4


And thanks for the wrap up Qrs, it's looking really nice.
Write your own song!
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 16:43:41
October 25 2011 16:38 GMT
#2075
On October 26 2011 01:17 greggy wrote:
qrs, you haven't covered Nf1 ata all, and it's probably the most reasonable move white has (imho)
I covered it under "other moves". Basically, I think Nf1 has a lot going for it--and one important thing going against it, which I don't think has been adequately addressed.
+ Show Spoiler +
18...a5, looking to lock down our Queenside, and in particular threatening to play ...a4. If Black gets in ...a4 before we have done anything about the pawn, I find it hard to see how we're going to make further progress in this game.

You can look in the analysis tree I posted above for the main line that I think is problematic, under 18. Nf1 a5. Actually, now that I look again, we probably have good play in that particular line with 21. Rac1+, etc., but that's only because you have Black defending c6 with his vulnerable King. I'm not sure why you have him do that: the only gain I see is to open the c8-h3 diagonal for the Bishop, but there's nowhere useful for the Bishop to go along that diagonal anyway, for the moment.

What's your plan after, instead, ...19 c6 with the intention of 20...a4? (diagram/PGN viewer.) As far as I can see, ...a4 cannot be prevented except by a4?! which is an interesting move, but looks a bit dubious in that it creates yet another weakness for us to look after. If we allow Black to play ...a4, on the other hand, we are left with a permanent weakness on b2, which Black can keep under pressure indefinitely, and I don't see a good plan to remove it. Do you?

PS: Greggy, you've contributed a lot of helpful analysis to this game. Why don't you ever vote?
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
October 25 2011 16:57 GMT
#2076
So, It doesn't look like any move yet has a simple majority, and I'd rather not see a move with like 4-5 votes win. We should all take more time to consider each other's arguments and try to find a good line here and try to get a majority vote for a specific move.

My thoughts: + Show Spoiler +
our bishop is immobile due to the location of our b pawn and our knight, so we should move one of those pieces when we have the opportunity. Moving the knight seems to be the safest plan, which would probably make Nf1 our move, but I hate playing Nf1 since it's not a great spot for the knight-- it's just not blocking the bishop. Does anyone have any better suggestions?


I'm not sure we can make any major pawn progress here, but the possibility of a simplification in our favor exists, so I'm going to, for the moment, Abstain, and Not Offer Draw.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 25 2011 17:45 GMT
#2077
On October 26 2011 01:25 mastergriggy wrote:
My bad with that last line Qrs, here's the corrected version without the five illegal moves for + Show Spoiler +
b3: 18. b3 Bd6 19. Bb2 Bf4 20. Bc3 Bxd2 21. Bxd2 Rxb3 22. Bb4


And thanks for the wrap up Qrs, it's looking really nice.
Thanks for clarifying that, mastergriggy; I've corrected the line in the summary, and added a couple of sublines to show that we don't need to give up the pawn (unless I made a mistake).

Thanks for the praise, too. This was by far the hardest and least fun write-up for me to do, and I don't see myself doing it again. On the other hand, I do think that it's very convenient to have all the analysis organized like that, so I think we should give some thought to coming up with a way to do the analysis collaboratively, in future turns--i.e. instead of everyone posting their own analysis as isolated lines, we have a central tree that everyone can edit (e.g. a Google Doc) and post their analysis at the appropriate spot on the tree.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 25 2011 19:21 GMT
#2078
On October 25 2011 06:43 hype[NZ] wrote:
18.b4

+ Show Spoiler +
It's better now than it ever was. Black's dark square bishop is semi-pinned since 18...Bd6 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 and he is just going backwards.

So perhaps 18...a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Bd6 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.Ne3, or if 18...Ba6 we can eventually play Nb3 and our position looks pretty good (e.g. 18.b4 Ba6 19.Bb2 Bd6 20.Nb3)
In your line, what if Black plays + Show Spoiler +
20...Rb3? (diagram/PGN viewer)

From what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be in Black's interest to play ...Bd6 too early because that allows us to take pressure off us and simplify with RxR, as in your line. However, 20...Rb3 seems to be a good move for Black here: without conceding us anything (like the chance to trade Rooks), he strengthens his hold on the b-file by preparing to double Rooks, and continues to pressure us by threatening the a3 pawn, should the Bishop ever leave. As long as the Bishop remains an invalid, and splits our Rooks, I don't think we're ready to say that our position looks pretty good.

Of course, we're up two pawns at the moment, so we have the option of letting one go and remaining a pawn up, but even if we do that, I'm not sure how easy it will be to hold on to all of our remaining ones, with both the a-pawn and the d-pawn alone and far from home, and with the greater co-ordination of Black's pieces compared to ours.

What would your plan be in this position?
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
hype[NZ]
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Japan412 Posts
October 25 2011 21:30 GMT
#2079
On October 26 2011 04:21 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 06:43 hype[NZ] wrote:
18.b4

+ Show Spoiler +
It's better now than it ever was. Black's dark square bishop is semi-pinned since 18...Bd6 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 and he is just going backwards.

So perhaps 18...a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Bd6 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.Ne3, or if 18...Ba6 we can eventually play Nb3 and our position looks pretty good (e.g. 18.b4 Ba6 19.Bb2 Bd6 20.Nb3)
In your line, what if Black plays + Show Spoiler +
20...Rb3? (diagram/PGN viewer)

From what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be in Black's interest to play ...Bd6 too early because that allows us to take pressure off us and simplify with RxR, as in your line. However, 20...Rb3 seems to be a good move for Black here: without conceding us anything (like the chance to trade Rooks), he strengthens his hold on the b-file by preparing to double Rooks, and continues to pressure us by threatening the a3 pawn, should the Bishop ever leave. As long as the Bishop remains an invalid, and splits our Rooks, I don't think we're ready to say that our position looks pretty good.

Of course, we're up two pawns at the moment, so we have the option of letting one go and remaining a pawn up, but even if we do that, I'm not sure how easy it will be to hold on to all of our remaining ones, with both the a-pawn and the d-pawn alone and far from home, and with the greater co-ordination of Black's pieces compared to ours.

What would your plan be in this position?

+ Show Spoiler +
If black is planning to double rooks on the b-file then he has basically given us Re1 for free when he played Re8.

So after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Rb3 we could continue with 21.Re3 Reb8 22.Nd2 and black is pretty much forced to trade a rook

[image loading]


22...Rd3 (22...R3b7 23.Rh3 Rh8 24.Rb1) (22.R3b5 23.a4 Rxa5 24.Nb3) 23.Rxd3 Bxd3 then we might continue with Nf1-e3 ideas.

We could also directly play 21.Ne3 which attacks the d5 pawn 21... c6 22.Nf5 Bd8 23.Rxe8 Kxe8

I agree black doesn't want to trade rooks so maybe he could play 21...Bd8 here instead of c6 (since now we can't RxR and this prevents Nf5). Not sure of the best way to proceed here since black is threatening Rd3 attacking our d4 pawn, as well as to play c5 which will lose our a5 pawn (which is might be unavoidable), but then again we don't even have to go down this line.

[image loading]


That's just my ideas atm. As always feel free to point out stuff like 20...Bd6 not being blacks best reply in the line I gave before, or any improvements for either side.
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 21:59:12
October 25 2011 21:58 GMT
#2080
On October 26 2011 01:57 Blazinghand wrote:
So, It doesn't look like any move yet has a simple majority, and I'd rather not see a move with like 4-5 votes win. We should all take more time to consider each other's arguments and try to find a good line here and try to get a majority vote for a specific move.

My thoughts: + Show Spoiler +
our bishop is immobile due to the location of our b pawn and our knight, so we should move one of those pieces when we have the opportunity. Moving the knight seems to be the safest plan, which would probably make Nf1 our move, but I hate playing Nf1 since it's not a great spot for the knight-- it's just not blocking the bishop. Does anyone have any better suggestions?


I'm not sure we can make any major pawn progress here, but the possibility of a simplification in our favor exists, so I'm going to, for the moment, Abstain, and Not Offer Draw.

This is a good point. It's nice to see such a variety of moves, and that there is no clear majority. However, that also implies that we don't really have a clear plan or immediate goal here.

I think our priority in this position is to eliminate our queenside cramp so that we can develop the bishop and connect rooks, which is why I am supporting the move b4. It is the most immediate and direct way of resolving our queenside cramp. The knight moves do nothing to aid this goal.

It is possible that b3 is a good way to do the same thing, but it feels weaker for a few reasons:

1) With b3, black is still bearing down on our b-pawn, and we must defend it, which means a minor piece will be restrained. Playing b4 eliminates this problem.

2) If we play b4 a5 bxa5, black will eventually have to spend a tempo or two recapturing our a-pawn, giving an additional move or two to improve our position down the line. This isn't the case with b3.

3) Having a pawn on b3 will also eliminate the possibility of Nb3, which we have seen in a couple variations to be a strong move.

4) b4 is a more forcing move. It limits black's responses or options in a way that b3 doesn't.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
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