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Canada16217 Posts
On September 10 2012 16:56 ThePlayer33 wrote:
plenty of players cheat in online qualifiers, don't see how this is not known by TL organisers
Wait and you are? lol.
This holds no actual merit if someone was doing this it would not help them a lot if you are a pro player you aren't going get supply blocked that often, if you are a pro player you aren't going to miss a lot of drops. I don't see any reason for this to be a concern, even if it happened I wouldn't consider it cheating most players like to play in silence with headphones on, playing while someones talking to you is distracting. Video tapping while the player plays? how ridiculous does that sound?
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On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote:
Ok. You got it all wrong.
1: The matches of the TSL are custom games, so not anyone is invited to the game. Probably just the two players + 1 or 2 admins of the TSL.
2: The matches are casters from replays.
3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully.
4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend?
You are silly to think people wouldn't consider cheating in a tournament with a prize pool as large as TSL's.
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4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend?[/QUOTE]
It was a bit funny that you said that the players are all adults when the two players that was in the finals were both 15 years old. :D
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As many have said, players competing in TSL just wouldn't do that.
Why?
1. Because of respect for other players, the competition, and the game.
2. If they were found out, the backlash would be tremendous.
3. Pro players are very good at knowing when their opponent is "too good", so the possibility of being found out is great.
4. Casters with an overview of everything would be able to tell right away if someone was playing "too well".
5. Lets say they do win by cheating this way, what then? They go on to under-perform at live events and lose the prestige they gained by cheating.
Besides all that, I've played games where I have a friend being the backseat player, and it is annoying as fuck even when I know they are helping.
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I don't know if it could be called cheating when you have a friend helping you while playing. There are different degrees of how much assistance could be given. Where does the line go? Can you not have people observing you play at all? Do they have to be quiet? Is meta game advice okay? Is real time strategic advice fine? What about verbally instructing every action for the player? And an observer can as was mentioned keep track of individual aspects of the game? I think in an online environment, you have to just conceed that certain types of help are allowed. Having someone point out threatening dots on the minimap for you is not on the same scale of cheating as map hacking and use of macros. Before you get good methods of combatting those, the other person in the room is irrelevant.
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On September 11 2012 00:38 Torrathyr wrote:
As many have said, players competing in TSL just wouldn't do that.
Why?
1. Because of respect for other players, the competition, and the game.
2. If they were found out, the backlash would be tremendous.
3. Pro players are very good at knowing when their opponent is "too good", so the possibility of being found out is great.
4. Casters with an overview of everything would be able to tell right away if someone was playing "too well".
5. Lets say they do win by cheating this way, what then? They go on to under-perform at live events and lose the prestige they gained by cheating.
Besides all that, I've played games where I have a friend being the backseat player, and it is annoying as fuck even when I know they are helping.
Basically not a single one of those 5 points has stopped people from cheating in the past. Why would it stop them from cheating now?
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On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote:
Ok. You got it all wrong.
1: The matches of the TSL are custom games, so not anyone is invited to the game. Probably just the two players + 1 or 2 admins of the TSL.
2: The matches are casters from replays.
3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully.
4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend?
Savior and adult and had the calibre of skill.
Sup?
Thing is people probably actually do it and that is the risk that TSL takes.
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I guess you could players force to record themselves with a web cam during the games (in a way that the monitor is in the picture). Maybe they even have such a rule and don't make it public. Maybe they just account for players to not do this or for both to do it.
OP is not stupid. I actually once saw a pro gamer stream (I think of a name here, but since I'm not 100% sure I remember correctly, I will keep this anonymously) that was watched by has team mate over the shoulder during an online qualifier. His team mate assisted him by giving advice about timings and things like "watch your supply, build depots/pylons/overlord" etc. I believed it was quite helpful and the player did not seem to be distracted or annoyed at any time.
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China6331 Posts
I don't think this would be a concern for TSL, and most major online tournaments at all. TSL4 matches are played on cloaked custom maps, there are only selected observers involved, and frankly, all those players are well-established known pros, their sportsmanship should be trusted.
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I can't believe that most of the responses here are "It's TSL, people respect that". No, someone who is inclined to cheat would not stop cheating just because it's TeamLiquid hosting a tournament.
The honest answer is that there is no way to stop this kind of cheating, and there is absolutely no way to prove that anyone was cheating, or any reason to accuse specific players of cheating.
It's one of the expected risks of holding an online tournament, and short of forcing every player to have a webcam on with a mic that can pick up all surrounding voices, it's unavoidable.
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On September 09 2012 05:57 MrF wrote:
1st what you mention isnt really cheating because it doesnt give you an advantage that you cant have by just being observant of your own game
2nd both parties could do this so its not really an unfair advantage
3rd as above post said its not really helpful to have someone standing next to you talking to you during a game in fact it can be distracting and make you play worse.
but yeah it could happen
Is this post a joke?
I guess auto mine in BW isn't a cheat because you could just make the probes mine as soon as they pop out with good macro. And anyone could get auto mine so it's not really unfair right?
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its pretty tough to stop that kind of cheating
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On September 11 2012 06:42 WightyCity wrote:
its pretty tough to stop that kind of cheating
by pretty tough you mean impossible. OP isn't stupid but the topic is, you can't host an online tournament and guarantee that players aren't receiving help from someone over their shoulders...how in the world would you (reasonably, before someone says "make them flim themselves playing at 4 different angles to prove they aren't showing a fake game blah blah blah) ever enforce anything like that.
While it can, probably does, and will always happen, you can't do anything about it.
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On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote:
Ok. You got it all wrong.
1: The matches of the TSL are custom games, so not anyone is invited to the game. Probably just the two players + 1 or 2 admins of the TSL.
2: The matches are casters from replays.
3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully.
4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend?
This is so adorably naive.
I don't think there was any cheating during the TSL whatsoever, but the opinions #3 and #4 are nothing short of adorable.
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'Live' help in an online match impossible to enforce unless you are in a LAN scenario.. It's that simple.
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On September 10 2012 16:46 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 15:46 cosmo.6792 wrote:On September 10 2012 12:26 Plexa wrote:
Hacking and things like that are dealt with by R1CH, don't fuck with R1CH, he will find you. If there are any suspicions raised about the game (be it hotkey differences, frozen screens, and whatnot) we do investigate and invariably we conclude that no cheating has occurred. But when we don't... well see TSL2 for what happens. There are well-known external "cheat" programs that overlay an exposed minimap and a build units tab on the player's game screen. Just having those two information will give the cheater an enormous advantage over his opponent. As long as the cheater doesn't do something obnoxiously stupid (i.e. reposition units as soon as he notices movement on minimap, or build spore crawlers as soon as dark shrine starts) then it's virtually impossible to detect suspicious activity from the replays. There are easy ways to benefit from these illegal information without raising suspicion. With a $34,500 USD prize pool, I think it was unwise to let players compete online without monitoring them. Especially the qualifiers, which have a lot of unknown players competing against known pros. A good way to minimize cheating is by requiring players to video record matches with a camera over the shoulder. In this day and age, most gamers already have a webcam or a cellphone that can do just that. That requirement would be enough to deter would-be cheaters, even if the TSL staff doesn't bother actually inspecting every submitted video. What makes you so certain TSL doesn't have its own custom software to detect this?
I'm not a programmer, but somehow in the .rep file you can see what other programs are running on the computer? That claim sounds a bit...audacious, no (Not that you actually said that, you PR person you :D)?
Also, there's still the main point of the OP. Basically TL doesn't think it's a big enough concern, you're saying?
Obviously we can't tell if people are sitting next to the players and giving them advice - however we don't think that has any significant impact on results
But the words "significant impact" mean to me that it potentially can have some impact. TL just doesn't feel that should lead to relatively impractical preventation methods (i.e. having the person send a video of himself playing the game)?
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On September 11 2012 07:28 Flamingo777 wrote:
'Live' help in an online match impossible to enforce unless you are in a LAN scenario.. It's that simple.
It's not impossible.
Require all participants to video record themselves playing the games without headphones. That will go a long way in deterring audio cues from a "live" helper. It will also deter visual cues from hacks that overlay illegal minimaps and build tabs on the gamescreen.
Most gamers these days have a webcam or cell phone that records video, no? Winners of these matches will then be required to submit the video recordings along with the results.
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On September 11 2012 07:26 MrCash wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote:
Ok. You got it all wrong.
1: The matches of the TSL are custom games, so not anyone is invited to the game. Probably just the two players + 1 or 2 admins of the TSL.
2: The matches are casters from replays.
3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully.
4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend? This is so adorably naive. I don't think there was any cheating during the TSL whatsoever, but the opinions #3 and #4 are nothing short of adorable.
I was thinking the same thing. :3
From previous experiences we've learned there is no end to what people will try to get away with.
I wouldn't be surprised if a player tried to help another player get more points if they were friends and the other guy was safe but in all honesty looking back at the scores and points it seems pretty far-fetched.
The guys who wanted to make it made it and looking back at the early qualifers a lot of the guys who were running hot at the time were winning those.
So I don't really have a problem with how it played out.
Korean Qualifiers were ridiculous to get through and reminded me of Courage.
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On September 09 2012 05:32 DKR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote:
3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully.
4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend? Dimaga and a couple of others cheated in TSL2
dimaga cheated ?
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no high level player wants someone talking in their ear, it's distracting and it's quite frankly, slower to speak with your mouth than think about it in your head. Sure a pro might miss something here and there or may lose to a mistake someone could have told them about, but if they were told of that, they'd simply be slower in another area because they were trying to process someone telling them something and reacting to it.
I've had people try and talk to me while playing, even if they are trying to help, it's just way too hard if you already at a good enough level to where you are thinking faster than the person behind you is speaking. So I don't think this is a problem.
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EPT
