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To start by answering the actual OP I think the fact is TL can't actual confirm at all that that doesn't happen. That's just the way it is with online tournaments. All you can do is just put your faith in the integrity of the players, or send an 'invigilator' to the team houses to watch over each of the players, which would be completely logistically impossible (not to mention incredibly anal, if you're going to do that may as well just hold an offline tournament).
On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote:
3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully.
4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend?
While I do agree this is how it should be, I think you're completely deluded if you actually believe this is how it works in real life. I don't completely understand what point 3 is trying to make, are you saying that all pros are manner? Because they're not. There are two obvious examples which I don't think there's any need to name; In actual face-to-face interviews they come across completely honest, rational adults and even at times regretful of certain things they've done/said that the community considered out of place. Yet the fact remains that they still say non-manner comments again and again, it actually happened in this very TSL4 in one of the round of 32 matches.
As for point 4 I'm afraid that you are just way to trusting. "TSL players are adults", yes, but they are also human, and one of the most powerful human emotions is greed. Maybe to me and you there would be no pride in winning from cheating or an unfair advantage, but some people become so desperate to win they'll do anything they can to achieve it, and the more they do it they eventually become deluded that that they truly did earn it and just mentally block out the fact that they cheated.
Just look at the amount of doping that occurs in international sports, even with stringent testing, the threat of being stripped of all awards if caught and the taint of been branded a 'doper'. The fact remains the some athletes (fully grown mature adults) are still willing to take the risk. SC is no exception, BW (Proleague i believe?) had numerous life time bans for players who were caught making money from match fixing, and everyone knows the handful of highly regarded SC2 pros today did infact hack in BW tournaments.
I don't mean to have a go mate, I'm actually with you in that I genuinely believe anyone competing in the TSL is far above any form of petty cheating/unfair advantage. But you can't just outright state that there's not at least the possibility that it goes on.
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Even if anyone did cheat, its too late now and there isn't really a need to discuss this topic.
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What a great fishing title. 4000 views and probably 95% of them (Or just me..) think you've made a thread to accuse someone.
Goddamn dude think your titles through. A question mark was very appropriate.
and no chance of getting caught,
By the way this wasn't some podunk $50 King of Plat tournament. I promise the organizing staff did not cross their fingers and go "WELL I HOPEZ NO ONE CHEATS CUZ WE'RE NOT LOOKING LOL".
If there was something suspicious, an actual allegation was made. or even a viewer/the casters/observers noticed something, we'd bloody well know of it by now.
I'm still astounded that you thought that title was appropriate..
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On September 09 2012 20:26 EdenPLusDucky wrote:
Even if anyone did cheat, its too late now and there isn't really a need to discuss this topic.
It's an interesting topic to discuss because it will be an issue for the next ten years of SC2. I don't think there is a clear answer, you can't know unless you actually check yourself, or trust someone in the teamhouse explicitly to check for you. "Offline" tournaments will always be best.
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Just from my experience and referencing watching the Koreans play in previous tournaments. It isn't something thats done. Actually I remember when Prime was playing their matches against NSHS for IPLTAC (1 or 2 I'm not sure) everyone was slient watching each player play their matches. and what little they did speak was whispers to each other, and if you had headphones on you wouldn't be able to hear it at all.
The teams are all pretty strict when it comes to that sort of stuff, and nobody does it, even when there was KSL going on, the players who wanted to see the match would watch the stream in the other row, but wouldn't say anything until after the match, in which then they would tell the player what they did wrong and what they should do for next time. nothing is said to the player during the match, at least in the prime house anyways.
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I am sorry to interrupt you flaming the OP, but in Korea, it's "standard" to stream cheat(which is impossible in TSL), or to have someone behind you if you play a somewhat important online game/tournament. Some famous caster mentioned that a couple of months a go in a video, possibly Artosis (not sure though).
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I am sorry to interrupt you flaming the OP, but in Korea, it's "standard" to stream cheat(which is impossible in TSL), or to have someone behind you if you play a somewhat important online game/tournament. Some famous caster mentioned that a couple of months a go in a video, possibly Artosis (not sure though).
where are you getting your idea from???
oh it was the manager of former "Rgn" team.
The manager of Reign once stated that he heard Artist
saying its common to stream cheat on Korea. the manager (i dunno his name)
posted this during the infamous "spades maphacking incident". When the Korean
community heard about this, they asked Artist if this is true, and Artist made a post
on PlayXP saying that it was a miscommunication between him and the manager.
Jesus Christ if its "common" to stream cheat in Korea, then every Korean pro will be
winning online tournament. Get your shit right before you spread false information.
Think about it ,Because of what Saviour did in BW, everyone in Korea is fucking sensitive about stream cheating &
match fixing. When Dragon was caught stream cheating, everyone in the korean starcraft 2 community was
fucking pissed and he still hasnt been accepted in the community.
Do you really think Korean pros will just "stream cheat" knowing that their career would be over if they are caught??
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While I can't say Chill and friends can do anything about that kind of cheating, the TSL has the advantage of an offline final cast live on stage! + Show Spoiler +or at least the tsl3 did :|
Also, team houses have a nasty habit of leaking things, and I doubt anyone would want that sort of thing hovering around them, even as a mere rumor.
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On September 09 2012 20:57 Probe1 wrote:
If there was something suspicious, an actual allegation was made. or even a viewer/the casters/observers noticed something, we'd bloody well know of it by now.
Why is nobody reading the OP??? How would a viewer/caster/observer have any possible clue if the person playing was getting help from someone sitting next to him? You could easily attribute it to simply playing he game well. That was the OP's point.
Would like to hear a TL mod respond...
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
TSL takes every precaution possible to eliminate cheating. Obviously we can't tell if people are sitting next to the players and giving them advice - however we don't think that has any significant impact on results. Stream cheating is impossible because we have the games casted from replays - stream cheating is one of the biggest reasons why we continue to use replays despite the communities desire for live. Hacking and things like that are dealt with by R1CH, don't fuck with R1CH, he will find you. If there are any suspicions raised about the game (be it hotkey differences, frozen screens, and whatnot) we do investigate and invariably we conclude that no cheating has occurred. But when we don't... well see TSL2 for what happens.
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On September 09 2012 20:01 ShamisenSix wrote:
The TC makes a valid point in my book, it's whats known as "Ghosting" in the FPS world (CS and all that jazz).
Theoretically it's possible, so I do think there needs to be a way to verify it's not happening.
Then again, I do believe in Sportsmanship at the Pro level. And that the Pro's are honorbound not to.
this is different from ghosting, which is getting info that you would otherwise not have access to. having a friend watch you play, the total amount of info available doesn't change
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Eh, I think FXOBoss and/or a couple others have actually straight up said that many koreans do stuff like that
someone even said that korean players were doing it at an MLG (Leenock I think it was?)
I'll bet it occured, I just don't think there's a way to stop it
After reading other replies, I see that masterbreti says that prime doesn't do it
And seeing as he's actually been there, he outweighs whatever we've 'heard' from managers/whatever who in turn hear it from someone who hear it from someone...
I'm fairly certain about the MLG thing, I think it may have even been brought up on SotG or ITG
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Maybe creator and life are school mates and if life let creator win then creator will do lifes homework for the rest of the year
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A lot of you are giving too much credit to the players. All are young, some under 16. Do we need to make a list of every player who rages, uses racial slurs, gets caught map-hacking and denies it? Someone will eventually get caught for this.
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On September 10 2012 12:26 Plexa wrote:
Hacking and things like that are dealt with by R1CH, don't fuck with R1CH, he will find you. If there are any suspicions raised about the game (be it hotkey differences, frozen screens, and whatnot) we do investigate and invariably we conclude that no cheating has occurred. But when we don't... well see TSL2 for what happens.
There are well-known external "cheat" programs that overlay an exposed minimap and a build units tab on the player's game screen. Just having those two information will give the cheater an enormous advantage over his opponent. As long as the cheater doesn't do something obnoxiously stupid (i.e. reposition units as soon as he notices movement on minimap, or build spore crawlers as soon as dark shrine starts) then it's virtually impossible to detect suspicious activity from the replays. There are easy ways to benefit from these illegal information without raising suspicion.
With a $34,500 USD prize pool, I think it was unwise to let players compete online without monitoring them. Especially the qualifiers, which have a lot of unknown players competing against known pros. A good way to minimize cheating is by requiring players to video record matches with a camera over the shoulder. In this day and age, most gamers already have a webcam or a cellphone that can do just that. That requirement would be enough to deter would-be cheaters, even if the TSL staff doesn't bother actually inspecting every submitted video.
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Omg those pro players are horrible! atleast top 4 in TSL4 made horrible mistakes even though they had 4-6 eyes watching and telling what to do!
What are you trying to accomplish with this thread....? We will never know the truth some may have been cheating but i don't think so or atleast don't want to think so lol.
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On September 10 2012 15:48 Darrkhan wrote:
Omg those pro players are horrible! atleast top 4 in TSL4 made horrible mistakes even though they had 4-6 eyes watching and telling what to do!
What are you trying to accomplish with this thread....? We will never know the truth some may have been cheating but i don't think so or atleast don't want to think so lol.
I think you entirely missed the point. I'm sorry the OP failed to live up to your high quality standards in terms of posting, but your sarcasm isn't particularly clever.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 10 2012 15:46 cosmo.6792 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 12:26 Plexa wrote:
Hacking and things like that are dealt with by R1CH, don't fuck with R1CH, he will find you. If there are any suspicions raised about the game (be it hotkey differences, frozen screens, and whatnot) we do investigate and invariably we conclude that no cheating has occurred. But when we don't... well see TSL2 for what happens. There are well-known external "cheat" programs that overlay an exposed minimap and a build units tab on the player's game screen. Just having those two information will give the cheater an enormous advantage over his opponent. As long as the cheater doesn't do something obnoxiously stupid (i.e. reposition units as soon as he notices movement on minimap, or build spore crawlers as soon as dark shrine starts) then it's virtually impossible to detect suspicious activity from the replays. There are easy ways to benefit from these illegal information without raising suspicion. With a $34,500 USD prize pool, I think it was unwise to let players compete online without monitoring them. Especially the qualifiers, which have a lot of unknown players competing against known pros. A good way to minimize cheating is by requiring players to video record matches with a camera over the shoulder. In this day and age, most gamers already have a webcam or a cellphone that can do just that. That requirement would be enough to deter would-be cheaters, even if the TSL staff doesn't bother actually inspecting every submitted video.
What makes you so certain TSL doesn't have its own custom software to detect this?
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plenty of players cheat in online qualifiers, don't see how this is not known by TL organisers
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I think it's likely that at least one player over the course of the tournament did have a coach/teammate watch them play over their shoulder and offer commentary with regard to minimap actions and supply. It's impossible to gauge exactly how much of an effect this would have on average, but to deny that players wouldn't take every possible precautionary measure that they can afford is extremely naive.
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EPT
