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Nothing.
+ Show Spoiler +I still don't really understand the point of this thread. There's nothing anyone can do to prevent the player from physically having someone next to him giving him tips during the games unless TL had a referee at their physical location, which isn't going to ever happen since it's such a global tournament. So no, there's nothing stopping them. Unless it's a finals game and the players are physically flown in the player like in TSL3.
Is it perhaps a concern? Yeah, you could definitely say so. This isn't something that is specifically associated with TSL in particular though.
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Reality is, as a top pro gamer, you are usually good enough to not get supply blocked and spot minimap on your own without the use of anybodies help and with a person or two trying to tell you "supply block, or drop at mini-map" that would only be more of a distraction rather than the help which doesn't benefit you in any way. And if you're talking about example of Maru playing and marineking behind him telling him what he should do, every player plays different and thinks different and has different reasons for doing what they resulting in many times not agreeing with other people and their decisions, thats what makes players good and play different from others, so that just doesn't happen and wouldn't make sense.
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On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote:
Ok. You got it all wrong.
1: The matches of the TSL are custom games, so not anyone is invited to the game. Probably just the two players + 1 or 2 admins of the TSL.
2: The matches are casters from replays.
3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully.
4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend?
Lol how naive
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On September 16 2012 12:44 pOnarreT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote:
Ok. You got it all wrong.
1: The matches of the TSL are custom games, so not anyone is invited to the game. Probably just the two players + 1 or 2 admins of the TSL.
2: The matches are casters from replays.
3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully.
4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend? Lol how naive
There doesnt seem to be a way to win with you..
Its just your negative mindset that thinks this way contrary to what you think most professionals take pride in what they do and consider cheating undermining that and destroying the legitimacy of what they do.
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At the level these guys are playing at, having someone backseat macroing is going to do more harm than good. Getting knocked out of your zone is awful.
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On September 16 2012 13:14 Jepsyn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 12:44 pOnarreT wrote:On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote:
Ok. You got it all wrong.
1: The matches of the TSL are custom games, so not anyone is invited to the game. Probably just the two players + 1 or 2 admins of the TSL.
2: The matches are casters from replays.
3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully.
4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend? Lol how naive There doesnt seem to be a way to win with you.. Its just your negative mindset that thinks this way contrary to what you think most professionals take pride in what they do and consider cheating undermining that and destroying the legitimacy of what they do.
Yeah, most do.
Some don't. Those few are the ones that cheat in tournaments like the TSL.
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On September 11 2012 06:31 Snijjer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 05:57 MrF wrote:
1st what you mention isnt really cheating because it doesnt give you an advantage that you cant have by just being observant of your own game
2nd both parties could do this so its not really an unfair advantage
3rd as above post said its not really helpful to have someone standing next to you talking to you during a game in fact it can be distracting and make you play worse.
but yeah it could happen Is this post a joke? I guess auto mine in BW isn't a cheat because you could just make the probes mine as soon as they pop out with good macro. And anyone could get auto mine so it's not really unfair right?
No joke man, I thought i made some valid points, and while its true that you could say the same thing about say a maphack or automine in terms of both players being able to obtain it, what I meant is both players can do this according to the rules without any second party software or hacks. I basically said the same thing most of the other intellegent people in this thread have said including an admin of this site. I just don't think it would have a huge impact on the game, pro players do make mistakes but it is usually a forced mistake as in they dont see a drop coming because they are busy defending a different location at the same time, in this case having an observer behined you wouldnt help because it still comes down to the players mulitasking skill to be able to deal with both threats. I also find it odd and a little flattering that out of all the posts saying basically the same thing as mine you picked me out to call my post a joke. I didn't insult the OP just stated my opinions, i even admitted that this could happen, Thanks for reading my post and responding but comparing this to someone using a cheat that automatically moves their units for them seems like the joke to me. Have a nice day.
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I doubt having someone beside you calling out stuff to you would be beneficial in any way. If you're good enough to beat top level pros while dividing your attention to listen to someone else, you're probably good enough to do all of that and more if you just 100% focus on the game.
Also you assume that drops are only effective if they go unscouted, which is incorrect. If drops were ineffective just because you could see them, no one would ever drop. Drops are effective because they either catch someone out of position or force them to retreat units to deal with it. Even if you just drop some units and a move them, it forces the opponent to divide his attention to react. Top players win by dividing your attention, so if you are going to split your concentration more, you'll be at more of a disadvantage.
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Thanks for raising this concern OP, and I can definitely see a clear advantage players can gain from this. I don't think any pro gamer would benefit from someone coaching while they play or constantly shouting stuff out, but just pointing out when something's about to make them lose is a huge safety net. This can also be done for cloaked units. Someone looking over your shoulder can much easily spot an observer hovering over your army.
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I think most of you are missing the point. The op wants to know what is technically being done to prevent this sort of "soft" cheating, if anything. He's not asking about the merits of doing it or the integrity of the players.
There are many ways to cheat and fewer ways to prevent/catch it. Perhaps they could require a live video conference between the players and a ref during the matches so they could catch if other people were there helping. This would be hard for players with bad internet, but in such a big tournament it might be a nice touch.
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While having someone around constantly telling you what's on your minimap and such may be distracting and counter productive, I see no reason why a pro player wouldn't have a coach or a teammate who understands the matchup better (or who has played the opponent before and knows his style better than the competing player) and throw him a piece of advice once in a while. "He's using this build!" "Don't overcommit" and the like. You wouldn't even need him telling you what to do, just giving you good solid advice when you're not too sure what to do.
I don't see this being stopped in any way, only if the player has his webcam on while playing or something like that.
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Impossible to know if someone did but I can def see it as a possibility. It doesn't even have to be constant coach talk cause that would probably be too annoying for the player but pointing stuff out that can be missed on the minimap, helping to identify the build or whatever would def help.
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I don't see why everyone is taling about coaching, distracting, talk during matches pointing out stuff.
It is simple. Someone that knows your exact build order and timings. He needs not to get seisures while watching your screen and just say:
-Supply slipping.
-1000 minerals, build 2 aditional rax
-Inc drop in nat (while you are pushing for enemy 3rd trying to get that perfect concave)
He just issues warnings with pre-defined responses. He does not advice or coach.
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It's funny how everyone is calling you an idiot when your points are valid.
Korean players have in fact stream-cheated in the past during online tournaments even if only $200 mostly because of their own Korean pride against foreigners, and used it to make sure that they win. And it wasn't only in a select few who later got caught for it. I'm not sure about it now, but at the time it was pretty common.
About some1 staring over their shoulder etc., I do think that could garner an advantage. Pro players do in fact get supply blocked here and there, forget to start their 2/2 for a while, miss a drop on the minimap, etc. Although if some1 is telling u every 2 seconds to do something, obviously you would not have an advantae from that because it'd just be annoying, but if some1 just made sure you have everything right and crisp then it certainly could give an advantage.
For this tournament; I don't see why not. The only argument is that they're too "mature" to do it, which obviously isn't necessarily true due to the players in the past stream cheating in online cups. Not that I'm saying they did 100%, but more of that if some players did have someone standing over their shoulder then I wouldn't be too surprised.
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To the OP,
I'm sorry that 70% of the replies in this thread are tangential or otherwise misinterpreted. Reading comprehension is evidently a rare modern skill. Your point is valid and clear. I dont understand the basis for any of the flaming
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There is a fundamental difference in supply blocking(and most other flaws) between pros and everyone else.
Amateurs do it because they are easily distracted, pros do it because they are already stretched too thin.
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OP I'll have to agree with you on this one. Even though I'm a lowly masters player, it DOES help to have a friend giving inputs from time to time (my friend is also masters). As an observer, he has the advantage of being able to see the big picture without the annoyances of making more supply depots or troubled with any other aspect of the game.
The only solution I could come up with is webcam verification.
An extra set of eyes is an extra set of eyes, even the keenest of players will miss something from time to time. And for players such as myself... all the time.
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On September 18 2012 12:44 triple_double wrote:
OP I'll have to agree with you on this one. Even though I'm a lowly masters player, it DOES help to have a friend giving inputs from time to time (my friend is also masters). As an observer, he has the advantage of being able to see the big picture without the annoyances of making more supply depots or troubled with any other aspect of the game.
The only solution I could come up with is webcam verification.
An extra set of eyes is an extra set of eyes, even the keenest of players will miss something from time to time. And for players such as myself... all the time.
Haha if people really wanted to do such a thing, webcam verification might not be too helpful either. You can always plug the CPU to another monitor or to a projector or something and have the person call out from a slightly further distance. So yea. *Shrugs*
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why is everyone so quick to jump up and attack op?
firstly, missed drops and such are not unheard of and do end games. what if the observer only points out things that he realises the player hasn't notice. especially if they are pros helping each other, he knows what his friend is thinking.
2nd, thinking that players are mature. and sportsmanly is plain naivety, look at savior or any other sport. .. scandals. always occur.
stop being so thick guys, a mere utterance of "drop at your third" is all it takes for a game to be decided.
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On September 09 2012 08:41 o0StatiK wrote:
I understand what you're trying to ask but that wouldn't really help.
I get coached by a friend frequently, but I find it extremely distracting to have him going 'OKAY PLACE A PYLON HERE, NO NOT THERE, HERE. NO NOT THERE'. 'DUDE MACRO, MACRO!'
towards the end of the session I want to punch him right in the penis.
While it can be done, the person who's hovering over you don't know their build either.
it depends on who is coaching you... remember starbrain in bw?
also, i've played with friends on BW, and just simple reminders helped him demolish some people.
"oh yeah, don't forget to spend your 1k in the bank."
"watch out for the harass, they are dropping"
"Dont forget dragoon range"
"upgrade your adrenal glands, you forgot cracklings"
The last two could have won humongous games (think stork vs bisu, MSL game 5... also a bunch of savior games.
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EPT
