EPTcheating in the TSL [?]
| Forum Index > TSL4 Forum |
|
iarekorea
United States11 Posts
| ||
|
Oiseaux
United States676 Posts
| ||
|
FreudianTrip
Switzerland1983 Posts
On September 09 2012 03:52 iarekorea wrote: Since the TSL is an online-only tournament, how does TL make sure that the players receive no help during matches. What's stopping players from having a friend constantly stare at the minimap to have instant reactions to drops and harrassments while another friend watches out for supply blocks and building/research mistakes? Even the top Code S players have made those types of mistakes in high-pressure situations, which are easily preventable with extra sets of eyes. With a prize pool of $35k and no chance of getting caught, wouldn't some players try to cheat this way? It's casted from replays... Oh I see you mean someone staring over his shoulders. Yeah, still dumb. | ||
|
GiantRobot
Germany9 Posts
| ||
|
iarekorea
United States11 Posts
| ||
|
sorrowptoss
Canada1431 Posts
1: The matches of the TSL are custom games, so not anyone is invited to the game. Probably just the two players + 1 or 2 admins of the TSL. 2: The matches are casters from replays. 3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully. 4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend? | ||
|
iarekorea
United States11 Posts
1: The matches of the TSL are custom games, so not anyone is invited to the game. Probably just the two players + 1 or 2 admins of the TSL. i guess i wasn't very clear. i didnt mean to invite your friends in-game to watch you play online but to get them to come to your house and watch you live in person. 3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully. 4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend? all of that may be true for some random online cup with a $200 prize pool, but for a $35k prize pool and a possible fat contract by one of those big-spending corporate proteams, fun and manner can take a backseat. | ||
|
reesTHEman
United States11 Posts
| ||
|
DKR
United Kingdom622 Posts
On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote: 3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully. 4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend? Dimaga and a couple of others cheated in TSL2 | ||
|
MrF
United States320 Posts
2nd both parties could do this so its not really an unfair advantage 3rd as above post said its not really helpful to have someone standing next to you talking to you during a game in fact it can be distracting and make you play worse. but yeah it could happen | ||
|
Doubting
Canada981 Posts
| ||
|
SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote: Ok. You got it all wrong. 1: The matches of the TSL are custom games, so not anyone is invited to the game. Probably just the two players + 1 or 2 admins of the TSL. 2: The matches are casters from replays. 3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully. 4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend? 3 and 4 Couldn't be more Wrong Look up Match fixing scandals for BW and there are so many other occasions of Players cheating TSL is pretty cheat proof for stream cheating but most other online tournaments are not the same. Also it's extremely difficult to prove stream cheating. | ||
|
IcookTacos
Sweden295 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
|
Warpath
Canada1242 Posts
And the cheating in TSL2 was mainly abusing ladder system for ranking (to qualify) and possibly straight up map hacking. | ||
|
Whatson
United States5357 Posts
| ||
|
TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
So Yeah, there could be maphack, but seeing every participating player as a proven live performer, this can't be meant seriously. | ||
|
iarekorea
United States11 Posts
op is stupid. Someone talking to you about the game doesn't help, its just distracting. I bet the team mates are being as quiet as possible to let them concentrate. i'm not saying you should have someone arguing with you about your in-game decisions or your army composition or any matter related to your choice of strategy. i'm talking about just an extra set of eyes to spot things you might have missed. think of it as an insurance policy against you making a silly mistake that will cost you the game. in a perfect world where you make no such mistakes the entire game, your help wouldn't have to say a thing. I can tell OP isn't out of bronze yet because he don't seem to realize how much more is going on in a game than just drops and supply blocks. You can't really gain an game changing advantage by having someone staring at your minimap. The supply block argument is even more silly for very obvious reasons. yes, having someone watch you won't make a masters league player all of a sudden start beating code s koreans, but are you saying it gives you no advantage whatsoever? how many times have u seen a pro gamer react to a storm drop a second too late and lose all his drones? or someone get supply-blocked right before a big battle and lose a battle they could have won if they had a few more units? just last week in the gsl we saw + Show Spoiler + MC lose because he made a 2nd robo instead of a robo bay. | ||
|
o0StatiK
United States10 Posts
I get coached by a friend frequently, but I find it extremely distracting to have him going 'OKAY PLACE A PYLON HERE, NO NOT THERE, HERE. NO NOT THERE'. 'DUDE MACRO, MACRO!' towards the end of the session I want to punch him right in the penis. While it can be done, the person who's hovering over you don't know their build either. | ||
|
Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
nearly every korean pro gamer have interacted once or twice throughout their entire careers especially as rookies. | ||
|
Account252508
3454 Posts
| ||
iHirO
United Kingdom1381 Posts
But its probably more complicated than its worth. | ||
|
pic
United States162 Posts
easily enough it could be placed in the rules. and then it would be and no one could stop it without recording. because at low level it may be distracting but when u talk to your friend that is HIGH level he already knows what build u want to do because you told him. he can tell u mistakes oh u placed your nexus off.. ect or as said see runbys that u barely dont see. and dont go on to this rant about how pro players are better and therefor cant use help. infact they can use help ALOT better its pretty obvious when someione isnt seeing something and in 1000s of live games pro gamers who are so good apparently MISS drops happening runbys ect ect. lose many units b4 reacting ect ect... with help of this nature to prevent small quick radar blips ect. and someone smart enough to ACTUALLY tell u when its obvious that u are messing up. a better player can fix that problem ALOT better than a mediocre annoyed from a coach player. so yah neways i think its cheating. | ||
|
o0StatiK
United States10 Posts
From what I heard, this is all done online. From what you're saying, there has to be a friend of Opponent A by Opponent B, friend of Opponent A (whos is near Opponent B) is going to call Opponent A to let him know what's going on? I'm not trying to flame, I'm trying to understand what you're trying to say. | ||
|
RaiKageRyu
Canada4773 Posts
On September 09 2012 09:19 iHirO wrote: One solution could be to film themselves playing the game and then submit the video along with the replay, to show that there was no outside interference. But its probably more complicated than its worth. This was always what I assumed happened behind the scenes. | ||
|
Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On September 09 2012 09:08 monkybone wrote: Why are people in this thread so obtuse and condescending towards OP? The poster o0StatiK is a good example of someone being intentionally dumb to mock OP. This is actually a very relevant question and it should be discussed. Just as stream cheating is common practice, why not a helping observer? I can see many situations where it might be of help, e.g. being informed of an incoming drop or runby. And the fact is that there is no way to verify that this is happening. We're not talking about being coached while they play. How are we condescending, please explain. There are admins in all the TL games, if you look at the semi-finals between Sting and Creator, you'll see that the game where Creator disconnects has the admin posting in it. This is obviously to prevent any other people besides the players from joining the lobby, as they are all custom games. Therefore, the only way that one can "cheat" or whatnot during TSL4 is if another person actually sits next to the player and tells him what to do. These guys are obviously good enough so that by the time that person tells the player about a drop or whatever, the player will have already spotted it and reacted to it. | ||
|
Tabashi
Belgium129 Posts
 ).... Or he just found out about TSL today :D | ||
|
DarkSworn
United States15 Posts
| ||
|
MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
| ||
|
Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
| ||
ZodaSoda
Australia1191 Posts
On September 09 2012 05:32 DKR wrote: Dimaga and a couple of others cheated in TSL2 They cheated to "get in to" TSL2 and got caught, forfeiting TSL2 and TSL3. | ||
|
mkkillah
Netherlands12 Posts
things like: Drop 3rd. run by 2nd second robo. (MC's mistake few days ago, making the game a loss and drop to codeA) And dont tell me that Pro players always see drops coming and never get supply blocked. Players always make mistakes in games otherwise they wouldn't be humans. getting supply blocked once in 10 games could lose you that deciding game, not only in TSL but also in other online-tourn. if drops were always spotted how come I see drones/scv's/probes being slaughtered because of a late reaction. Spotting the drop when you already have them slaughtering drones/scv's/probes is obviously too late as long as the observer (in person!) is knowledgeable and straight to the point it can help you get the advantage. | ||
|
Tanukki
Finland579 Posts
Also with maphack you don't need an accomplice. Having one would be a huge problem. | ||
|
Poorlilrich
Australia262 Posts
On September 09 2012 13:32 Whatson wrote: How are we condescending, please explain. There are admins in all the TL games, if you look at the semi-finals between Sting and Creator, you'll see that the game where Creator disconnects has the admin posting in it. This is obviously to prevent any other people besides the players from joining the lobby, as they are all custom games. Therefore, the only way that one can "cheat" or whatnot during TSL4 is if another person actually sits next to the player and tells him what to do. These guys are obviously good enough so that by the time that person tells the player about a drop or whatever, the player will have already spotted it and reacted to it. Nearly every response in this thread has been some kind of automatic "what a dumb question OP lol", followed by some irrelevant information such as you have provided about in game admins, when the OP stated (and reiterated) that he means someone watching the minimap in person. I think it is an interesting and relevant question for discussion. I myself spot lots of little mistakes that pros make which could be rectified if I were sitting next to them and gently saying "hey you have 4 drones in gas at your natural" or whatever. I am pretty sure this would be an advantage to a pro rather than an annoyance. There is really no way to monitor it other than 1. Video taping the player playing the game 2. Honour system and its tempting to forget the honour system when, as the OP reminds us, there is a lot of money at stake. | ||
|
mkkillah
Netherlands12 Posts
On September 09 2012 19:32 Tanukki wrote: I'd be more worried about map hack. Obviously if you maphack all the time, it becomes easy to catch. But you can toggle it wisely to, for example, identify the opponent's build so you can safely go for the greediest build that the situation permits. using a map hack to identify your opponents build would get you caught for sure because you have to look @the opponents base revealing the map hack to players that watch the replay (watching @the fog of war). The only thing you can use a map hack for is watching the minimap so you can see drops/attack timings coming early. Still I think maphacking is not such a problem since this is cheating according to the rules someone watching over your shoulder isnt (yet). Pro players are smart enough not to maphack because getting caught (could) mean(s) your career is over. | ||
|
mkkillah
Netherlands12 Posts
On September 09 2012 19:36 Poorlilrich wrote: when the OP stated (and reiterated) that he means someone watching the minimap in person. I second this ^ | ||
|
Tanukki
Finland579 Posts
On September 09 2012 19:38 mkkillah wrote: using a map hack to identify your opponents build would get you caught for sure because you have to look @the opponents base revealing the map hack to players that watch the replay (watching @the fog of war). The only thing you can use a map hack for is watching the minimap so you can see drops/attack timings coming early. Still I think maphacking is not such a problem since this is cheating according to the rules someone watching over your shoulder isnt (yet). Pro players are smart enough not to maphack because getting caught (could) mean(s) your career is over. There's no need to look at their base suspiciously! Features of the cheat (at least used to) let you look without using the camera that is shown to observers. Alternatively, you can send a unit towards their base to have an excuse for looking there. Just the minimap gives lots of information with maphack, for example expansion timings. | ||
|
mkkillah
Netherlands12 Posts
On September 09 2012 19:44 Tanukki wrote: There's no need to look at their base suspiciously! Features of the cheat (at least used to) let you look without using the camera that is shown to observers. Alternatively, you can send a unit towards their base to have an excuse for looking there. Just the minimap gives lots of information with maphack, for example expansion timings. I wouldn't know because I don't approve of hacking in games. Still my argument stands I am not worried of map hacking because it's not allowed and is dangerous for your career. People that aren't smart enough to see this will get caught because of their stupidity. | ||
|
m0lder
Norway6 Posts
| ||
|
MacroNcheesE
United States508 Posts
On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote: Ok. You got it all wrong. 1: The matches of the TSL are custom games, so not anyone is invited to the game. Probably just the two players + 1 or 2 admins of the TSL. 2: The matches are casters from replays. 3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully. 4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend? Umm, there was plenty of cheating in the first couple of TSL's, with quite a few very well known and respected gamer's being banned from the following TSL event (I believe it was a year long ban and possibly being banned from other online foreign tournaments as well, unsure about the latter). They're not divine beings with divine morals/ethics, they're human beings with temptations. You shouldn't put players on a pedestal like that not only is it unrealistic, but it's an unfair standard. And I'm sure that each of the players have their own unique mannerisms.  ^^ | ||
|
ShamisenSix
Belgium12 Posts
Theoretically it's possible, so I do think there needs to be a way to verify it's not happening. Then again, I do believe in Sportsmanship at the Pro level. And that the Pro's are honorbound not to. | ||
|
Greendotz
United Kingdom2053 Posts
On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote: 3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully. 4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend? While I do agree this is how it should be, I think you're completely deluded if you actually believe this is how it works in real life. I don't completely understand what point 3 is trying to make, are you saying that all pros are manner? Because they're not. There are two obvious examples which I don't think there's any need to name; In actual face-to-face interviews they come across completely honest, rational adults and even at times regretful of certain things they've done/said that the community considered out of place. Yet the fact remains that they still say non-manner comments again and again, it actually happened in this very TSL4 in one of the round of 32 matches. As for point 4 I'm afraid that you are just way to trusting. "TSL players are adults", yes, but they are also human, and one of the most powerful human emotions is greed. Maybe to me and you there would be no pride in winning from cheating or an unfair advantage, but some people become so desperate to win they'll do anything they can to achieve it, and the more they do it they eventually become deluded that that they truly did earn it and just mentally block out the fact that they cheated. Just look at the amount of doping that occurs in international sports, even with stringent testing, the threat of being stripped of all awards if caught and the taint of been branded a 'doper'. The fact remains the some athletes (fully grown mature adults) are still willing to take the risk. SC is no exception, BW (Proleague i believe?) had numerous life time bans for players who were caught making money from match fixing, and everyone knows the handful of highly regarded SC2 pros today did infact hack in BW tournaments. I don't mean to have a go mate, I'm actually with you in that I genuinely believe anyone competing in the TSL is far above any form of petty cheating/unfair advantage. But you can't just outright state that there's not at least the possibility that it goes on. | ||
|
EdenPLusDucky
571 Posts
| ||
|
Probe1
United States17920 Posts
Goddamn dude think your titles through. A question mark was very appropriate. and no chance of getting caught, By the way this wasn't some podunk $50 King of Plat tournament. I promise the organizing staff did not cross their fingers and go "WELL I HOPEZ NO ONE CHEATS CUZ WE'RE NOT LOOKING LOL". If there was something suspicious, an actual allegation was made. or even a viewer/the casters/observers noticed something, we'd bloody well know of it by now. I'm still astounded that you thought that title was appropriate.. | ||
|
shabby
Norway6402 Posts
On September 09 2012 20:26 EdenPLusDucky wrote: Even if anyone did cheat, its too late now and there isn't really a need to discuss this topic. It's an interesting topic to discuss because it will be an issue for the next ten years of SC2. I don't think there is a clear answer, you can't know unless you actually check yourself, or trust someone in the teamhouse explicitly to check for you. "Offline" tournaments will always be best. | ||
|
masterbreti
Korea (South)2711 Posts
The teams are all pretty strict when it comes to that sort of stuff, and nobody does it, even when there was KSL going on, the players who wanted to see the match would watch the stream in the other row, but wouldn't say anything until after the match, in which then they would tell the player what they did wrong and what they should do for next time. nothing is said to the player during the match, at least in the prime house anyways. | ||
|
DrahtMaul
Germany74 Posts
| ||
|
mongmong
Korea (South)1389 Posts
I am sorry to interrupt you flaming the OP, but in Korea, it's "standard" to stream cheat(which is impossible in TSL), or to have someone behind you if you play a somewhat important online game/tournament. Some famous caster mentioned that a couple of months a go in a video, possibly Artosis (not sure though). where are you getting your idea from??? oh it was the manager of former "Rgn" team. The manager of Reign once stated that he heard Artist saying its common to stream cheat on Korea. the manager (i dunno his name) posted this during the infamous "spades maphacking incident". When the Korean community heard about this, they asked Artist if this is true, and Artist made a post on PlayXP saying that it was a miscommunication between him and the manager. Jesus Christ if its "common" to stream cheat in Korea, then every Korean pro will be winning online tournament. Get your shit right before you spread false information. Think about it ,Because of what Saviour did in BW, everyone in Korea is fucking sensitive about stream cheating & match fixing. When Dragon was caught stream cheating, everyone in the korean starcraft 2 community was fucking pissed and he still hasnt been accepted in the community. Do you really think Korean pros will just "stream cheat" knowing that their career would be over if they are caught?? | ||
|
PineapplePizza
United States749 Posts
or at least the tsl3 did :| Also, team houses have a nasty habit of leaking things, and I doubt anyone would want that sort of thing hovering around them, even as a mere rumor. | ||
|
soon.Cloak
United States983 Posts
On September 09 2012 20:57 Probe1 wrote: If there was something suspicious, an actual allegation was made. or even a viewer/the casters/observers noticed something, we'd bloody well know of it by now. Why is nobody reading the OP??? How would a viewer/caster/observer have any possible clue if the person playing was getting help from someone sitting next to him? You could easily attribute it to simply playing he game well. That was the OP's point. Would like to hear a TL mod respond... | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
| ||
|
tiffany
3664 Posts
On September 09 2012 20:01 ShamisenSix wrote: The TC makes a valid point in my book, it's whats known as "Ghosting" in the FPS world (CS and all that jazz). Theoretically it's possible, so I do think there needs to be a way to verify it's not happening. Then again, I do believe in Sportsmanship at the Pro level. And that the Pro's are honorbound not to. this is different from ghosting, which is getting info that you would otherwise not have access to. having a friend watch you play, the total amount of info available doesn't change | ||
|
aRyuujin
United States5049 Posts
someone even said that korean players were doing it at an MLG (Leenock I think it was?) I'll bet it occured, I just don't think there's a way to stop it After reading other replies, I see that masterbreti says that prime doesn't do it And seeing as he's actually been there, he outweighs whatever we've 'heard' from managers/whatever who in turn hear it from someone who hear it from someone... I'm fairly certain about the MLG thing, I think it may have even been brought up on SotG or ITG | ||
|
antifan
116 Posts
| ||
|
MeatlessTaco
United States302 Posts
| ||
|
cosmo.6792
161 Posts
On September 10 2012 12:26 Plexa wrote: Hacking and things like that are dealt with by R1CH, don't fuck with R1CH, he will find you. If there are any suspicions raised about the game (be it hotkey differences, frozen screens, and whatnot) we do investigate and invariably we conclude that no cheating has occurred. But when we don't... well see TSL2 for what happens. There are well-known external "cheat" programs that overlay an exposed minimap and a build units tab on the player's game screen. Just having those two information will give the cheater an enormous advantage over his opponent. As long as the cheater doesn't do something obnoxiously stupid (i.e. reposition units as soon as he notices movement on minimap, or build spore crawlers as soon as dark shrine starts) then it's virtually impossible to detect suspicious activity from the replays. There are easy ways to benefit from these illegal information without raising suspicion. With a $34,500 USD prize pool, I think it was unwise to let players compete online without monitoring them. Especially the qualifiers, which have a lot of unknown players competing against known pros. A good way to minimize cheating is by requiring players to video record matches with a camera over the shoulder. In this day and age, most gamers already have a webcam or a cellphone that can do just that. That requirement would be enough to deter would-be cheaters, even if the TSL staff doesn't bother actually inspecting every submitted video. | ||
|
Darrkhan
Finland1236 Posts
What are you trying to accomplish with this thread....? We will never know the truth some may have been cheating but i don't think so or atleast don't want to think so lol. | ||
|
MeatlessTaco
United States302 Posts
On September 10 2012 15:48 Darrkhan wrote: Omg those pro players are horrible! atleast top 4 in TSL4 made horrible mistakes even though they had 4-6 eyes watching and telling what to do! What are you trying to accomplish with this thread....? We will never know the truth some may have been cheating but i don't think so or atleast don't want to think so lol. I think you entirely missed the point. I'm sorry the OP failed to live up to your high quality standards in terms of posting, but your sarcasm isn't particularly clever. | ||
|
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 10 2012 15:46 cosmo.6792 wrote: There are well-known external "cheat" programs that overlay an exposed minimap and a build units tab on the player's game screen. Just having those two information will give the cheater an enormous advantage over his opponent. As long as the cheater doesn't do something obnoxiously stupid (i.e. reposition units as soon as he notices movement on minimap, or build spore crawlers as soon as dark shrine starts) then it's virtually impossible to detect suspicious activity from the replays. There are easy ways to benefit from these illegal information without raising suspicion. With a $34,500 USD prize pool, I think it was unwise to let players compete online without monitoring them. Especially the qualifiers, which have a lot of unknown players competing against known pros. A good way to minimize cheating is by requiring players to video record matches with a camera over the shoulder. In this day and age, most gamers already have a webcam or a cellphone that can do just that. That requirement would be enough to deter would-be cheaters, even if the TSL staff doesn't bother actually inspecting every submitted video. What makes you so certain TSL doesn't have its own custom software to detect this? | ||
|
ThePlayer33
Australia2378 Posts
| ||
|
Meta
United States6228 Posts
| ||
NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
On September 10 2012 16:56 ThePlayer33 wrote: plenty of players cheat in online qualifiers, don't see how this is not known by TL organisers Wait and you are? lol. This holds no actual merit if someone was doing this it would not help them a lot if you are a pro player you aren't going get supply blocked that often, if you are a pro player you aren't going to miss a lot of drops. I don't see any reason for this to be a concern, even if it happened I wouldn't consider it cheating most players like to play in silence with headphones on, playing while someones talking to you is distracting. Video tapping while the player plays? how ridiculous does that sound? | ||
|
SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote: Ok. You got it all wrong. 1: The matches of the TSL are custom games, so not anyone is invited to the game. Probably just the two players + 1 or 2 admins of the TSL. 2: The matches are casters from replays. 3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully. 4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend? You are silly to think people wouldn't consider cheating in a tournament with a prize pool as large as TSL's. | ||
|
Deate
Sweden11 Posts
It was a bit funny that you said that the players are all adults when the two players that was in the finals were both 15 years old. :D | ||
|
Torrathyr
Canada95 Posts
Why? 1. Because of respect for other players, the competition, and the game. 2. If they were found out, the backlash would be tremendous. 3. Pro players are very good at knowing when their opponent is "too good", so the possibility of being found out is great. 4. Casters with an overview of everything would be able to tell right away if someone was playing "too well". 5. Lets say they do win by cheating this way, what then? They go on to under-perform at live events and lose the prestige they gained by cheating. Besides all that, I've played games where I have a friend being the backseat player, and it is annoying as fuck even when I know they are helping. | ||
|
stenole
Norway869 Posts
| ||
|
SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
On September 11 2012 00:38 Torrathyr wrote: As many have said, players competing in TSL just wouldn't do that. Why? 1. Because of respect for other players, the competition, and the game. 2. If they were found out, the backlash would be tremendous. 3. Pro players are very good at knowing when their opponent is "too good", so the possibility of being found out is great. 4. Casters with an overview of everything would be able to tell right away if someone was playing "too well". 5. Lets say they do win by cheating this way, what then? They go on to under-perform at live events and lose the prestige they gained by cheating. Besides all that, I've played games where I have a friend being the backseat player, and it is annoying as fuck even when I know they are helping. Basically not a single one of those 5 points has stopped people from cheating in the past. Why would it stop them from cheating now? | ||
|
NoobSkills
United States1603 Posts
On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote: Ok. You got it all wrong. 1: The matches of the TSL are custom games, so not anyone is invited to the game. Probably just the two players + 1 or 2 admins of the TSL. 2: The matches are casters from replays. 3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully. 4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend? Savior and adult and had the calibre of skill. Sup? Thing is people probably actually do it and that is the risk that TSL takes. | ||
|
AKnopf
Germany259 Posts
OP is not stupid. I actually once saw a pro gamer stream (I think of a name here, but since I'm not 100% sure I remember correctly, I will keep this anonymously) that was watched by has team mate over the shoulder during an online qualifier. His team mate assisted him by giving advice about timings and things like "watch your supply, build depots/pylons/overlord" etc. I believed it was quite helpful and the player did not seem to be distracted or annoyed at any time. | ||
digmouse
China6331 Posts
| ||
|
WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
The honest answer is that there is no way to stop this kind of cheating, and there is absolutely no way to prove that anyone was cheating, or any reason to accuse specific players of cheating. It's one of the expected risks of holding an online tournament, and short of forcing every player to have a webcam on with a mic that can pick up all surrounding voices, it's unavoidable. | ||
|
Snijjer
United States989 Posts
On September 09 2012 05:57 MrF wrote: 1st what you mention isnt really cheating because it doesnt give you an advantage that you cant have by just being observant of your own game 2nd both parties could do this so its not really an unfair advantage 3rd as above post said its not really helpful to have someone standing next to you talking to you during a game in fact it can be distracting and make you play worse. but yeah it could happen Is this post a joke? I guess auto mine in BW isn't a cheat because you could just make the probes mine as soon as they pop out with good macro. And anyone could get auto mine so it's not really unfair right? | ||
|
WightyCity
Canada887 Posts
| ||
|
Torenhire
United States11681 Posts
On September 11 2012 06:42 WightyCity wrote: its pretty tough to stop that kind of cheating by pretty tough you mean impossible. OP isn't stupid but the topic is, you can't host an online tournament and guarantee that players aren't receiving help from someone over their shoulders...how in the world would you (reasonably, before someone says "make them flim themselves playing at 4 different angles to prove they aren't showing a fake game blah blah blah) ever enforce anything like that. While it can, probably does, and will always happen, you can't do anything about it. | ||
|
MrCash
United States1504 Posts
On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote: Ok. You got it all wrong. 1: The matches of the TSL are custom games, so not anyone is invited to the game. Probably just the two players + 1 or 2 admins of the TSL. 2: The matches are casters from replays. 3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully. 4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend? This is so adorably naive. I don't think there was any cheating during the TSL whatsoever, but the opinions #3 and #4 are nothing short of adorable. | ||
|
Flamingo777
United States1190 Posts
| ||
|
soon.Cloak
United States983 Posts
On September 10 2012 16:46 Plexa wrote: What makes you so certain TSL doesn't have its own custom software to detect this? I'm not a programmer, but somehow in the .rep file you can see what other programs are running on the computer? That claim sounds a bit...audacious, no (Not that you actually said that, you PR person you :D)? Also, there's still the main point of the OP. Basically TL doesn't think it's a big enough concern, you're saying? Obviously we can't tell if people are sitting next to the players and giving them advice - however we don't think that has any significant impact on results But the words "significant impact" mean to me that it potentially can have some impact. TL just doesn't feel that should lead to relatively impractical preventation methods (i.e. having the person send a video of himself playing the game)? | ||
|
cosmo.6792
161 Posts
On September 11 2012 07:28 Flamingo777 wrote: 'Live' help in an online match impossible to enforce unless you are in a LAN scenario.. It's that simple. It's not impossible. Require all participants to video record themselves playing the games without headphones. That will go a long way in deterring audio cues from a "live" helper. It will also deter visual cues from hacks that overlay illegal minimaps and build tabs on the gamescreen. Most gamers these days have a webcam or cell phone that records video, no? Winners of these matches will then be required to submit the video recordings along with the results. | ||
|
StarStruck
25339 Posts
On September 11 2012 07:26 MrCash wrote: This is so adorably naive. I don't think there was any cheating during the TSL whatsoever, but the opinions #3 and #4 are nothing short of adorable. I was thinking the same thing. :3 From previous experiences we've learned there is no end to what people will try to get away with. I wouldn't be surprised if a player tried to help another player get more points if they were friends and the other guy was safe but in all honesty looking back at the scores and points it seems pretty far-fetched. The guys who wanted to make it made it and looking back at the early qualifers a lot of the guys who were running hot at the time were winning those. So I don't really have a problem with how it played out. Korean Qualifiers were ridiculous to get through and reminded me of Courage. | ||
|
E.L.V.I.S
Belgium458 Posts
On September 09 2012 05:32 DKR wrote: Dimaga and a couple of others cheated in TSL2 dimaga cheated ? | ||
|
emc
United States3088 Posts
I've had people try and talk to me while playing, even if they are trying to help, it's just way too hard if you already at a good enough level to where you are thinking faster than the person behind you is speaking. So I don't think this is a problem. | ||
|
sM.Zik
Canada2553 Posts
Yes, and many others did. I was wondering similar to the question of the OP. In online events, how can we know it's really the player playing on the account? Let's say it's IPL team league, EG vs Liquid, EG players are almost all in the same team houses living together, Stephano could easily play on Idra's account and nobody could know it, no? Am I missing something, I guess I am. | ||
|
convention
United States622 Posts
On September 12 2012 14:11 sM.Zik wrote: Yes, and many others did. I was wondering similar to the question of the OP. In online events, how can we know it's really the player playing on the account? Let's say it's IPL team league, EG vs Liquid, EG players are almost all in the same team houses living together, Stephano could easily play on Idra's account and nobody could know it, no? Am I missing something, I guess I am. That is actually pretty easy to catch, since everyone has different hotkeys and macro cycles, and those are very hard to change. The GM maphacking thread discusses this a lot when trying to find if two map hackers are actually the same person. | ||
|
iloveav
Poland1482 Posts
This means that for the sponsors, the winner himself is not important. About cheating or not, its the team that has a reputation and an obligation to deal with cheating, yet this does not always happen. In the end, if admins added a rule to the tournament saying that a cheater will have to pay some money for breaking the rules , and then place that money on the next tournament (to wich the cheating player would have no access), im guessing we would have far less cheaters in online cups :D. | ||
|
WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On September 12 2012 10:22 emc wrote: no high level player wants someone talking in their ear, it's distracting and it's quite frankly, slower to speak with your mouth than think about it in your head. Sure a pro might miss something here and there or may lose to a mistake someone could have told them about, but if they were told of that, they'd simply be slower in another area because they were trying to process someone telling them something and reacting to it. I've had people try and talk to me while playing, even if they are trying to help, it's just way too hard if you already at a good enough level to where you are thinking faster than the person behind you is speaking. So I don't think this is a problem. Someone talking constantly is an annoyance, but someone catching critical plays can make or break a game. Saying a quick "Drop left" or "Supply" can make all the difference. | ||
|
HooK2000
Germany139 Posts
On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote: 4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend? The winner was 15 or 16 i believe. And also the runner-up.. | ||
|
Account252508
3454 Posts
| ||
|
Okiesmokie
Canada379 Posts
On September 09 2012 09:06 Gamegene wrote: at least against their fellow countrymen, koreans have too much respect and trust for one another for them to break it. nearly every korean pro gamer have interacted once or twice throughout their entire careers especially as rookies. You mean like how those two players (who I can't remember the names of), were kicked out of GSL Code S because they win-swapped to get high ranks on the ladder? If they do that shit for a ladder that means nothing, what makes you think they wouldn't do it for a tournament with a big prize pool? | ||
|
nanaoei
3358 Posts
On September 12 2012 20:09 Okiesmokie wrote: You mean like how those two players (who I can't remember the names of), were kicked out of GSL Code S because they win-swapped to get high ranks on the ladder? If they do that shit for a ladder that means nothing, what makes you think they wouldn't do it for a tournament with a big prize pool? i think the point OP brings up is valid if not slightly redundant.. the players okiesmokie mentioned are probably byun and coca, and i'm pretty sure that was during group stages//qualification for group stages for an online tournament that had a prize pool. perhaps you could have a trusted supervisor/coach be tasked to watch all of their players' games in person? korea is not small enough that you can keep travelling to have an appointed practice house or area to have supervised games---not even possible for games between someone in korea and someone outside of korea. it's part of the nature of a non-offline event, and i won't touch any more on that. what i do feel is that starcraft isn't a game meant to be played alone. i think you can all recall those moments that you see a coach-figure go up to the booth to talk strategy and mentality, and you can be sure that they were watching those games of theirs very closely. the difference i can see is that the supporting cast there isn't in the booth with them during the games, but that doesn't mean that their words and influence don't have a real-time effect. in fact, the amount of practice you end up getting, and how your practice-partners perform on any given day is something you cannot control at times... though all of that affects whether you go into your set of games advantaged or disadvantaged. there are a lot of things that come into play that a normal spectator doesn't get to normally see/experience. i think it's best to have faith in the players.. that they are trying very hard at what they're doing. that is, playing and competing to win (often-times for their fans). | ||
|
Cinim
Denmark866 Posts
On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote: Ok. You got it all wrong. 1: The matches of the TSL are custom games, so not anyone is invited to the game. Probably just the two players + 1 or 2 admins of the TSL. 2: The matches are casters from replays. 3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully. 4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend? Yea, because that is how the match fixing scandal occured in Broodwar, maturity. Taking such assumptions is just blatantly wrong, in every community there is a minority who are willing to do anything, and that includes sc2. I know something as bad as the match fixing scandal in Korea haven't happened, but minor things happen all the time | ||
|
Bobster
Germany3075 Posts
On September 09 2012 03:52 iarekorea wrote: Since the TSL is an online-only tournament, how does TL make sure that the players receive no help during matches. What's stopping players from having a friend constantly stare at the minimap to have instant reactions to drops and harrassments while another friend watches out for supply blocks and building/research mistakes? Even the top Code S players have made those types of mistakes in high-pressure situations, which are easily preventable with extra sets of eyes. With a prize pool of $35k and no chance of getting caught, wouldn't some players try to cheat this way? Like in every online tournament, you can't make sure that the players won't cheat. The only possibility is to trust in the honesty and maturity of the players adhering to the spirit of fair play. There's not much more to say. | ||
|
FuGGu
United States176 Posts
On September 10 2012 14:05 antifan wrote: Maybe creator and life are school mates and if life let creator win then creator will do lifes homework for the rest of the year LOL best post ever! | ||
|
T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
| ||
|
Drake
Germany6146 Posts
| ||
|
Benjamin99
4176 Posts
| ||
|
Roflhaxx
Korea (South)1244 Posts
On September 09 2012 19:49 mkkillah wrote: I wouldn't know because I don't approve of hacking in games. Still my argument stands I am not worried of map hacking because it's not allowed and is dangerous for your career. People that aren't smart enough to see this will get caught because of their stupidity. You want a shiny armour for your knighthood mister? This can be done very easily and nonintrusive (for the guy playing) by just hooking up another monitor and have it on duplicate. The helper can then just watch his own monitor and yell out drops etc. | ||
|
Inverse1
United Kingdom61 Posts
| ||
|
vonPluring
Sweden96 Posts
edited for grammar. | ||
|
EvilDr.Porkchop
United States2 Posts
| ||
|
lux27
Germany33 Posts
i am sure this method is not even uncommon in online tournaments... imho its kind of naive believing in the 'sportsmannship' cause: surprise! there is money in play i dont get the rage towards the op @Doubting ever played while someone coaches you? maybe its too distracting for you, but there a ppl who got enough brainpower for that @IcookTacos your post is just plain stupid | ||
|
ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
When I watch a pro game, I feel like I catch stuff that the casters miss. This is stuff on production/ units tab, the minimap or whatever. Sometimes I get this idea that "huh, these casters miss important things, maybe I'd be a good caster or something". Same thing kind of goes for pro players. I always hear casters saying things like "ooh, that dropship was at the edge of his vision, did he see it?", and the answer is no. Player goes on to take terrible terrible economic damage and what was an even game becomes a struggle. Having someone lust look for those little things could make a massive difference. | ||
|
Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I still don't really understand the point of this thread. There's nothing anyone can do to prevent the player from physically having someone next to him giving him tips during the games unless TL had a referee at their physical location, which isn't going to ever happen since it's such a global tournament. So no, there's nothing stopping them. Unless it's a finals game and the players are physically flown in the player like in TSL3. Is it perhaps a concern? Yeah, you could definitely say so. This isn't something that is specifically associated with TSL in particular though. | ||
|
Everize
Poland176 Posts
| ||
|
pOnarreT
155 Posts
On September 09 2012 04:48 sorrowptoss wrote: Ok. You got it all wrong. 1: The matches of the TSL are custom games, so not anyone is invited to the game. Probably just the two players + 1 or 2 admins of the TSL. 2: The matches are casters from replays. 3: With that calibre of skill, there is also a calibre of maturity. SC2 is a game that is special because it involves mannerism. If people don't manner up, they aren't playing SC2 fully. 4: Similar to 3, TSL players are adults. They play fair and square. Besides, what fun/pride is there from winning a game thanks to your friend? Lol how naive | ||
|
Jepsyn
Canada364 Posts
There doesnt seem to be a way to win with you.. Its just your negative mindset that thinks this way contrary to what you think most professionals take pride in what they do and consider cheating undermining that and destroying the legitimacy of what they do. | ||
|
Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
| ||
|
SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:14 Jepsyn wrote: There doesnt seem to be a way to win with you.. Its just your negative mindset that thinks this way contrary to what you think most professionals take pride in what they do and consider cheating undermining that and destroying the legitimacy of what they do. Yeah, most do. Some don't. Those few are the ones that cheat in tournaments like the TSL. | ||
|
MrF
United States320 Posts
On September 11 2012 06:31 Snijjer wrote: Is this post a joke? I guess auto mine in BW isn't a cheat because you could just make the probes mine as soon as they pop out with good macro. And anyone could get auto mine so it's not really unfair right? No joke man, I thought i made some valid points, and while its true that you could say the same thing about say a maphack or automine in terms of both players being able to obtain it, what I meant is both players can do this according to the rules without any second party software or hacks. I basically said the same thing most of the other intellegent people in this thread have said including an admin of this site. I just don't think it would have a huge impact on the game, pro players do make mistakes but it is usually a forced mistake as in they dont see a drop coming because they are busy defending a different location at the same time, in this case having an observer behined you wouldnt help because it still comes down to the players mulitasking skill to be able to deal with both threats. I also find it odd and a little flattering that out of all the posts saying basically the same thing as mine you picked me out to call my post a joke. I didn't insult the OP just stated my opinions, i even admitted that this could happen, Thanks for reading my post and responding but comparing this to someone using a cheat that automatically moves their units for them seems like the joke to me. Have a nice day. | ||
|
OreoBoi
Canada1639 Posts
Also you assume that drops are only effective if they go unscouted, which is incorrect. If drops were ineffective just because you could see them, no one would ever drop. Drops are effective because they either catch someone out of position or force them to retreat units to deal with it. Even if you just drop some units and a move them, it forces the opponent to divide his attention to react. Top players win by dividing your attention, so if you are going to split your concentration more, you'll be at more of a disadvantage. | ||
|
Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
| ||
|
sambo400
United States378 Posts
There are many ways to cheat and fewer ways to prevent/catch it. Perhaps they could require a live video conference between the players and a ref during the matches so they could catch if other people were there helping. This would be hard for players with bad internet, but in such a big tournament it might be a nice touch. | ||
|
El Caz
Panama48 Posts
I don't see this being stopped in any way, only if the player has his webcam on while playing or something like that. | ||
|
DwD
Sweden8621 Posts
| ||
|
tertos
Romania394 Posts
It is simple. Someone that knows your exact build order and timings. He needs not to get seisures while watching your screen and just say: -Supply slipping. -1000 minerals, build 2 aditional rax -Inc drop in nat (while you are pushing for enemy 3rd trying to get that perfect concave) He just issues warnings with pre-defined responses. He does not advice or coach. | ||
|
LowEloPlayer
United States205 Posts
Korean players have in fact stream-cheated in the past during online tournaments even if only $200 mostly because of their own Korean pride against foreigners, and used it to make sure that they win. And it wasn't only in a select few who later got caught for it. I'm not sure about it now, but at the time it was pretty common. About some1 staring over their shoulder etc., I do think that could garner an advantage. Pro players do in fact get supply blocked here and there, forget to start their 2/2 for a while, miss a drop on the minimap, etc. Although if some1 is telling u every 2 seconds to do something, obviously you would not have an advantae from that because it'd just be annoying, but if some1 just made sure you have everything right and crisp then it certainly could give an advantage. For this tournament; I don't see why not. The only argument is that they're too "mature" to do it, which obviously isn't necessarily true due to the players in the past stream cheating in online cups. Not that I'm saying they did 100%, but more of that if some players did have someone standing over their shoulder then I wouldn't be too surprised. | ||
|
Kfcnoob
United States296 Posts
I'm sorry that 70% of the replies in this thread are tangential or otherwise misinterpreted. Reading comprehension is evidently a rare modern skill. Your point is valid and clear. I dont understand the basis for any of the flaming | ||
|
1Dhalism
862 Posts
Amateurs do it because they are easily distracted, pros do it because they are already stretched too thin. | ||
|
triple_double
United States3 Posts
The only solution I could come up with is webcam verification. An extra set of eyes is an extra set of eyes, even the keenest of players will miss something from time to time. And for players such as myself... all the time. | ||
|
Weirdkid
Singapore2431 Posts
On September 18 2012 12:44 triple_double wrote: OP I'll have to agree with you on this one. Even though I'm a lowly masters player, it DOES help to have a friend giving inputs from time to time (my friend is also masters). As an observer, he has the advantage of being able to see the big picture without the annoyances of making more supply depots or troubled with any other aspect of the game. The only solution I could come up with is webcam verification. An extra set of eyes is an extra set of eyes, even the keenest of players will miss something from time to time. And for players such as myself... all the time. Haha if people really wanted to do such a thing, webcam verification might not be too helpful either. You can always plug the CPU to another monitor or to a projector or something and have the person call out from a slightly further distance. So yea. *Shrugs* | ||
|
taldarimAltar
973 Posts
firstly, missed drops and such are not unheard of and do end games. what if the observer only points out things that he realises the player hasn't notice. especially if they are pros helping each other, he knows what his friend is thinking. 2nd, thinking that players are mature. and sportsmanly is plain naivety, look at savior or any other sport. .. scandals. always occur. stop being so thick guys, a mere utterance of "drop at your third" is all it takes for a game to be decided. | ||
|
Garaman
United States556 Posts
On September 09 2012 08:41 o0StatiK wrote: I understand what you're trying to ask but that wouldn't really help. I get coached by a friend frequently, but I find it extremely distracting to have him going 'OKAY PLACE A PYLON HERE, NO NOT THERE, HERE. NO NOT THERE'. 'DUDE MACRO, MACRO!' towards the end of the session I want to punch him right in the penis. While it can be done, the person who's hovering over you don't know their build either. it depends on who is coaching you... remember starbrain in bw? also, i've played with friends on BW, and just simple reminders helped him demolish some people. "oh yeah, don't forget to spend your 1k in the bank." "watch out for the harass, they are dropping" "Dont forget dragoon range" "upgrade your adrenal glands, you forgot cracklings" The last two could have won humongous games (think stork vs bisu, MSL game 5... also a bunch of savior games. | ||
|
shell
Portugal2722 Posts
WCS, MLG, DH, IEM, NASL, IPL, etc.. all have online qualifiers, did those players cheat? I guess you never know! | ||
|
Garaman
United States556 Posts
| ||
|
Di3s3l
97 Posts
I wish I knew the Day9 episode where he sits right behind Wheat and keeps reminding him what to do. Yeah I am comparing apples to oranges when it comes to skill, but wheat is processing things in the game 1/1000 of the speed that the pros are and he even get flustered with someone helping him. Imagine a pro processing the games information presented to him on top of someone informing him on stuff? Nonsense. Also, these players practice thousands of hours in certain attire for a reason. Take the headphones off a pro-player and he's already out of his element. Not only does he have the background noise of a person speaking to him, he has the background noise of everything else he is not used to hearing. Like I said earlier, dumb thread to stir up the crowd. | ||
|
dsousa
United States1363 Posts
| ||
|
mongmong
Korea (South)1389 Posts
It's funny how everyone is calling you an idiot when your points are valid. Korean players have in fact stream-cheated in the past during online tournaments even if only $200 mostly because of their own Korean pride against foreigners, and used it to make sure that they win. And it wasn't only in a select few who later got caught for it. I'm not sure about it now, but at the time it was pretty common. About some1 staring over their shoulder etc., I do think that could garner an advantage. Pro players do in fact get supply blocked here and there, forget to start their 2/2 for a while, miss a drop on the minimap, etc. Although if some1 is telling u every 2 seconds to do something, obviously you would not have an advantae from that because it'd just be annoying, but if some1 just made sure you have everything right and crisp then it certainly could give an advantage. For this tournament; I don't see why not. The only argument is that they're too "mature" to do it, which obviously isn't necessarily true due to the players in the past stream cheating in online cups. Not that I'm saying they did 100%, but more of that if some players did have someone standing over their shoulder then I wouldn't be too surprised. Last edit: 2012-09-17 23:53:02 source? 1. Dont bring up Ex RGN manager's statement, it was a miscommunication between him and artist. 2. Koreans dont really need to cheat, since most foreigners on online tourneys are walk overs 3. There is no "korean pride" as you put it, did you actually get that from Naniwa? What Korean pride?? 4. If Korean pros are not stupid enough to cheat on online tourneys, considering how Korean fans went mad when Dragon stream cheated. If you were in their shoes, would you risk yourself by stream cheating in shitty online tourneys? Garbage. Please dont bring up that crap. You cant even read Korean, how the fuck would you know that? | ||
|
bestof
Germany5 Posts
i think there is ALOT of cheating going on online and offline.. there is NO_WAY that people cant hear commentators or the croud on big events like mlg... i remember seeing dreamhack 2010 or sth where whitera played MC in the finals and it was 15.000$ first place or sth, and the last match MC proxied 2 rax'd whitera, and whitera send out a scout from his base and suddenly send the scout back... the whole audiance where screaming and there was no doubt that whitera didnt hear them... to clarify he heared the audiance but didnt scout the 2 gateways in his base on purpose.. it was so obvious but at that moment he probably didnt wanted to cheat and check his base... but yeah its just an example of how players cheat in offline tournaments, and i find it pretty stupid to have the players and the audiance in the same room in big tournaments.. Also, why you think foreigners have it so hard in GSL? maybe because the koreans can hear their commentarys in their booth but only they can understand them ( if a foreigner plays vs a korean) ... | ||
|
Deadstrider
Netherlands258 Posts
Also, why you think foreigners have it so hard in GSL? maybe because the koreans can hear their commentarys in their booth but only they can understand them ( if a foreigner plays vs a korean) ... Lol what? Maybe because koreans train alot harder then most foreigners? Besides that there are max only 2-3 foreigners in GSL at the same time. Most booths at MLG, IPL etc are soundproof and have white noise, I dont think you are totally right. | ||
|
bestof
Germany5 Posts
On September 19 2012 16:00 Deadstrider wrote: Lol what? Maybe because koreans train alot harder then most foreigners? Besides that there are max only 2-3 foreigners in GSL at the same time. Most booths at MLG, IPL etc are soundproof and have white noise, I dont think you are totally right. who says they are sound proof plz? creating a sound proof booth is extremly expensive and difficult, try to buy completly soundproof windows for example, they cost a fortune.. i'm 100% sure all those gamer booth's are not soundproof at all, and you can still hear commentators in it.. for example the noise just in the GSL studio is that loud that you can hear the korean commentators through the english cast.. i'm amazed everytime i see the presentation of those tournaments where they have the players infront of the audiance and you can hear the commentators voice in the whole room... it has something of a wrestling match really the ONLY way to proof that those things are soundproof is to have one of those things sitting in the booth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_level_meter | ||
|
PedroBlanco
Canada65 Posts
| ||
|
EnE
417 Posts
On September 19 2012 17:23 bestof wrote: who says they are sound proof plz? creating a sound proof booth is extremly expensive and difficult, try to buy completly soundproof windows for example, they cost a fortune.. i'm 100% sure all those gamer booth's are not soundproof at all, and you can still hear commentators in it.. for example the noise just in the GSL studio is that loud that you can hear the korean commentators through the english cast.. i'm amazed everytime i see the presentation of those tournaments where they have the players infront of the audiance and you can hear the commentators voice in the whole room... it has something of a wrestling match really the ONLY way to proof that those things are soundproof is to have one of those things sitting in the booth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_level_meter In addition to being near soundproof, white noise is played from the inside of the booth, additional white noise is played through the headphones, and the player puts his own music and gamesounds through earbuds. | ||
|
Doomball
United States26 Posts
The point here is that removing these mistakes entirely probably wouldn't have that much effect on a professional player, who trains numerous hours each day perfecting against these mistakes. This of course may be too idealistic, and so I'm gonna fall back on everyone else's argument that someone yelling over your shoulder is just plain fucking annoying. | ||
|
snafoo
New Zealand1615 Posts
On September 19 2012 15:37 bestof wrote: Also, why you think foreigners have it so hard in GSL? maybe because the koreans can hear their commentarys in their booth but only they can understand them ( if a foreigner plays vs a korean) ... Yeah, because foreigners have such an easy time outside of GSL........ this has to be a joke right? | ||
|
zyce
United States649 Posts
 Jaedong vs.  Flying:For those that can't/won't watch the video: + Show Spoiler + Jaedong has a bad rally, and proceeds to get 30ish hydralisks blocked by several drones on his ramp. This goes on for 7-8 minutes while Jaedong battles furiously with Flying. As soon as he realizes he has hydras overflowing, he Saurons that shit like it's nobody's business. | ||
|
JanneF
1 Post
This arrangement has few obvious downsides, biggest probably being additional workload on the referees (requiring two referees or twice as long, going over the recordings after the match); players might also find it annoying not being able to play with their headphones on if they are used to it. Being required to invest few tens of bucks in a webcam seems irrelevant if you want to compete for tens of thousands of dollars. Then again, I am not entirely convinced about banning this practice - why not introduce this kind of element into online tournaments. Sure, it shifts gameplay away from that in GSL essentially making online tornaments a team game, but as an observer and a Starcraft fan (not much of a player myself, and thus will never concern me in that manner) I would imagine it would be as fun to watch, if not more so. Listening to team communications in MLG League of Legends events has been intresting... | ||
|
Vandrad
Germany951 Posts
On September 19 2012 01:12 shell wrote: If you put TSL on the spot for this, then what happens with all the online qualifiers for every tournament? WCS, MLG, DH, IEM, NASL, IPL, etc.. all have online qualifiers, did those players cheat? I guess you never know! For qualifiers it wouldn't matter that much. You may qualify but when you get crushed in the tornament you will probably regret even cheating your way into it. | ||
|
bestof
Germany5 Posts
| ||
|
TyrionSC2
United States411 Posts
Other pros have stated in the past that they have stream cheated in the past and had help in online tournaments. It isn't out of the question at all. | ||
|
ShiniSama
United States103 Posts
But for real.. This would never happen and it is kind of ridiculous to even think it would. The players in this tourny are pro's and can probably react to it just as fast as someone just standing there can say something about it. | ||
|
Weirdkid
Singapore2431 Posts
On September 20 2012 17:08 zyce wrote: I thought that this would be relevant... If anyone remembers this game, one person over the shoulder would've helped a lot. Also, a very impressive game to watch. Jaedong vs. Flying:+ Show Spoiler + For those that can't/won't watch the video: + Show Spoiler + Jaedong has a bad rally, and proceeds to get 30ish hydralisks blocked by several drones on his ramp. This goes on for 7-8 minutes while Jaedong battles furiously with Flying. As soon as he realizes he has hydras overflowing, he Saurons that shit like it's nobody's business. Clearly all part of the plan Step 1: Make opponent think you have bad macro and he's ahead. Step 2: Win! | ||
|
stard1n
50 Posts
So booths are not completely sound proof. As for playing without booths - i think that is plain stupidity. | ||
|
Logic.jake
United States37 Posts
But having someone over your should helping you, I'd imagine, could be done in ANY online tournament. But overall, not sure why this need to be brought up suddenly, most major tournaments have online qualifiers. | ||
|
Jonoman92
United States9110 Posts
Oh, and people saying that those who are good enough to get into the TSL wouldn't cheat are simply delusional. Some players like White-rA I'd have almost 100% trust in, but just because someone is good at a video game doesn't mean they won't cheat. | ||
|
whiteLotus
1833 Posts
On September 23 2012 00:35 Jonoman92 wrote: I think cheating via a friend giving tips over one's shoulder is likely pretty low priority on the unfair play list. Hacking is a much bigger, and real problem. Oh, and people saying that those who are good enough to get into the TSL wouldn't cheat are simply delusional. Some players like White-rA I'd have almost 100% trust in, but just because someone is good at a video game doesn't mean they won't cheat. Tbh i would think that people who are good are more likely to cheat from time to time to secure couple wins on some qualifiers if needed. Why? Because they are good at the game and they can get away with it. It would be nearly imposible to catch CS pro using wallhack, on the other hand you almost instantly spot a random pub guy using wallhack. | ||
|
Krogan
Sweden375 Posts
However I really don't think there is anything you can do about this short making webcams with sound(as you can have second and third screen set up to the side) a requirement to play and require the players to hold up a newspaper with the date to prove they are not show a loop of an old recording. Obvious this is getting a bit silly and I think it's just one of those problems with online tournaments. | ||
|
Chickenson
6 Posts
| ||
|
Chickenson
6 Posts
On September 19 2012 17:23 bestof wrote: who says they are sound proof plz? creating a sound proof booth is extremly expensive and difficult, try to buy completly soundproof windows for example, they cost a fortune.. i'm 100% sure all those gamer booth's are not soundproof at all, and you can still hear commentators in it.. for example the noise just in the GSL studio is that loud that you can hear the korean commentators through the english cast.. i'm amazed everytime i see the presentation of those tournaments where they have the players infront of the audiance and you can hear the commentators voice in the whole room... it has something of a wrestling match really the ONLY way to proof that those things are soundproof is to have one of those things sitting in the booth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_level_meter This is a legitimate concern, but I'm pretty sure GSL booths are heavily sound proofed. Back in early 2011 Jinro came out after his game vs Idra and said he could hear the commentators reacting to Idra's six pool. They got new booths after that. As far as other events I think it would have come out if they weren't soundproof. | ||
|
ooDi
Canada170 Posts
| ||
|
kmillz
United States1548 Posts
| ||
|
cln
9 Posts
If yes, it's the league's problem if they have rules they cannot inforce, anyone can do it and it probably doesn't give most players the edge they need to beat a player they would lose against usually. Consider a game of soccer, where the coach can also shout instructions to his players from the side of the field. It's not like suddenly they win every game because of that AND both coaches can do it... | ||
|
Epishade
United States2267 Posts
On September 25 2012 05:47 Chickenson wrote: Why does no one mention production tab hacking? It would be incredibly naive to think that no one turned on a production tab hack during the qualifying or actual TSL tournament. I believe the op is specifically only talking about someone looking over one's shoulder and helping them during a game, and whether this is cheating or not. Hacks of any kind are obvious cheating, but there aren't many viable measures you can take, outside of Blizzard's help, in making sure an online tournament is played completely fair. In the hacking case, this is giving you in-game information that you shouldn't know whereas the player-over-shoulder case is just like an extra set of eyes helping you and watching for things that might or might not necessarily help you in playing the game. | ||
| ||
