On March 29 2011 15:43 L3gendary wrote: Like what?
Idra was completely out macroing him the entire game. Cruncher just sat passively until he got his deathball and rolled over everything zerg had. Going void ray and collosi...Cruncher's a genius. Cant wait till he runs into a terran, I'm not surprised he says he wants to face zerg players.
And what happens if the deathball works? Too bad for Idra, he should have done something
Nobody? He just beat IdrA in a Bo3 in an important tournament, i think he has earned the right to at least talk back when shit on then, if you noticed he was really humble before the match.
So in other words he is just like one of those sad battle.net ppl who spam trash at u after they've won or insta ignore you if they dont.
Btw its actually quite pathetic that he is trying to leech as much fame from Idra as possible, very transparent. Acting like a true noname, using every little opportunity to promote himself
First Idra trashed him before they even played. Is that fine? From your tone, only trashing after game is considered bad. At least when he trashed Idra, he won the series between them. He got results to back up his trash. Idra trashed him for no reason other than maybe getting cheesed on ladder(and ladder isn't worth anything). I think Idra is like one of those battle.net people who complain when they lose due to balance issue.
I'm definitely a fan of cruncher now. It's actually quite fun to have some drama.
Idra had a load of drones which means his army is going to be smaller in general so it's not that shocking to see that cruncher was able to kill idra's army multiple times
"sc2 is so much easier than wc3. half the games are rock paper scissors or flipping a coin right now"
"would be so nice to play wc3 again after playing sc2. actually win games based on skill instead of retarded gameplay. too bad the general population sucks and blizzard is catering to sc2 like they did to wow so nubs feel good"
Q: Oh, so you'd rather play him in Brood War if you had a choice?
Haha, in BW I would not have a chance anyway since my ZvT used to be the worst ZvT Europe has ever seen.
if only Mondi's zvt was as good as Octzerg's
haha, I totally forgot about that.
What happened to Octzerg, anyway? Is he playing SC2?
Nah, from what I know OctZerg is still playing SC1, either because of living in Macedonia with a godawful connection/computer, or because he can't win games with lings alone in SC2.
I dont get it. How can u complain about crunchers bm when idras bm ismuch worse?! Idra just gets his own medicine now. idra is a childish kid who cant lose. i mean how can u be like that after years and years of progaming? isnt he growing up like normal ppl?! i mean everybody he loses too has no skill and only abuses things? he always acts like he is the best player in the world and only HE knows how to play it. i mean he is by no doubt a top player ofc. but a top players should be able to clean up his weaknesses and nottrying to flame the guys who beat him by poking in his weaknesses. cruncher is absolutly right when he says that idra is really arrogant. i dont want to flame him personally but he acts like a guy who was bullied all the time at school and now this little boy is trying to get his revenge on the world....remember the pic of the harry potter in a leather jacket somewhere in korea....ok i should stop by now. the thing im trying to say is, cruncher carries his heart on the right spot und he got disrespected by idra sooo much. he just enjoys the mometum winning over an extremly arrogant and cocky dood. he just lets idra taste his own medicine....why shouldnt we be allowed to bully back the bully? or were all of u guys ppl who just gave their milkmoney away to the bullies? idra deserves it by beeing so extremly chiuldish and bm..... go cruncher....but mondi will rape u.....im so happy by now seeing mondi doing so well, idra could learn alot of him, even if its only the manners of mondi
It's absolutely amazing that people are trying to say Idra played better in G1 when they don't realize that Idra made fatal mistakes that cost him the game.
1) Did not play aggressive at all, played far too passive and didn't attempt to do any kind of good trades. Didn't snipe Colossus, never attempted to force Cruncher to stay in his base with drop play, didn't switch to any kind of other tech (he had PLENTY of time to do so), etc.
2) Tactically positioned his Corrupters horribly, losing many of them to VRs alone instead of microing them and sniping Colossus. There was a point where he lost something like 15+ Corrupters for no good reason.
3) Allowed Cruncher to take a 3rd UNCONTESTED on Shakuras. You're a god damn idiot if you allow a P to take an uncontested 3rd on Shakuras, and everyone that is decent at the game knows that. P with a fast 3rd like Cruncher can afford to basically camp for his 200/200 deathball and go roll you. Idra made a huge mistake here in allowing Cruncher to secure his 3rd for free. This was a big sign of his overconfidence.
4) Idra made WAY too many drones, thus cutting into his army count big time, when he KNEW for a fact that Cruncher was going for a big 200/200 deathball. To fight deathballs you need to stay mid level econ just ahead of P, because if you go for too many drones your army is to small to match his and you will get rolled hard.
Idra also deserves every bit of bad manner he gets. He spoke of Cruncher like he was some no name scrub that was horrible at SC2, when in fact that Cruncher is a solid upper level player who can beat top name players when he plays well.
When you treat everyone like a jackass you eventually will be treated like one. It's good to see that someone finally showed Idra what kind of a petulant spoiled brat he is. And the quote about Idra being an overrated is true. Idra can beat big name players IF you play his game. The second someone starts playing differently or abuses the fact that Idra plays in such a predictable manner, you will find that Idra has almost NO response to anything.
This was even true of him in BW, where I used to see players not do normal builds like 2 base Carrier and do some sort of heavy Gateway timing attack with shuttles and roll over Idra because he wasn't ready for it. So no, playing Z in SC2 isn't an excuse when he is still making the SAME mistakes that he did in BW.
On March 29 2011 16:10 superstartran wrote: It's absolutely amazing that people are trying to say Idra played better in G1 when they don't realize that Idra made fatal mistakes that cost him the game.
1) Did not play aggressive at all, played far too passive and didn't attempt to do any kind of good trades. Didn't snipe Colossus, never attempted to force Cruncher to stay in his base with drop play, didn't switch to any kind of other tech (he had PLENTY of time to do so), etc.
2) Tactically positioned his Corrupters horribly, losing many of them to VRs alone instead of microing them and sniping Colossus. There was a point where he lost something like 15+ Corrupters for no good reason.
3) Allowed Cruncher to take a 3rd UNCONTESTED on Shakuras. You're a god damn idiot if you allow a P to take an uncontested 3rd on Shakuras, and everyone that is decent at the game knows that. P with a fast 3rd like Cruncher can afford to basically camp for his 200/200 deathball and go roll you. Idra made a huge mistake here in allowing Cruncher to secure his 3rd for free. This was a big sign of his overconfidence.
4) Idra made WAY too many drones, thus cutting into his army count big time, when he KNEW for a fact that Cruncher was going for a big 200/200 deathball. To fight deathballs you need to stay mid level econ just ahead of P, because if you go for too many drones your army is to small to match his and you will get rolled hard.
There's so much wrong with this post I'm struggling to take it seriously
As soon as he had secured the advantage, he kept trying to force trades by pushing into Cruncher's natural. This in addition kept forcing Cruncher to move his deathball back there instead of allowing him to attack 1 o'clock main (though it's arguable whether he was going to do this, but he was clearly positioning his army for it). It certainly forced him to stay in his base and allowed idra to take the whole map. Drop play on shakura's isn't particularly good, especially when protoss takes these specific expansions, instead of expanding vertically. Now you can argue idra should have done some sort of all-in that hits just before protoss takes his third, but it is actually very difficult to do it on shakura's as both the natural and the expo behind rocks are easily defendable and forcefieldable. The air opening means you can't really do an roach all-in (no, it doesn't work despite Mondragon's games), and hydra timings don't really work in a way that you can get enough of them before the first colossi hits. It is, at least the version that they played on, a bad map for ZvP, just like Cruncher said. As for drone count, an argument can be made that zerg players should sack 20 or so drones when they see the protoss is going for deathball and not intending to take their fourth. Sometimes zergs do this very lategame by throwing down 20 spines, but that wouldn't have been particularly effective against voidray colossus. Idra's dronecount wasn't morrow esque at all, but he had the typical 74, which was likely about what cruncher had.
Whether trading those corruptors for a few void rays was worth it is arguable, but it doesn't appear to have affected the outcome of the game as idra was still maxed with a high corruptor count when the push hit, and there wasn't time to properly reinforce with anything but lings. "Bad" trades is what you are supposed to do as zerg when you are ahead like this against protoss.
On March 29 2011 16:10 superstartran wrote: It's absolutely amazing that people are trying to say Idra played better in G1 when they don't realize that Idra made fatal mistakes that cost him the game.
1) Did not play aggressive at all, played far too passive and didn't attempt to do any kind of good trades. Didn't snipe Colossus, never attempted to force Cruncher to stay in his base with drop play, didn't switch to any kind of other tech (he had PLENTY of time to do so), etc.
2) Tactically positioned his Corrupters horribly, losing many of them to VRs alone instead of microing them and sniping Colossus. There was a point where he lost something like 15+ Corrupters for no good reason.
3) Allowed Cruncher to take a 3rd UNCONTESTED on Shakuras. You're a god damn idiot if you allow a P to take an uncontested 3rd on Shakuras, and everyone that is decent at the game knows that. P with a fast 3rd like Cruncher can afford to basically camp for his 200/200 deathball and go roll you. Idra made a huge mistake here in allowing Cruncher to secure his 3rd for free. This was a big sign of his overconfidence.
4) Idra made WAY too many drones, thus cutting into his army count big time, when he KNEW for a fact that Cruncher was going for a big 200/200 deathball. To fight deathballs you need to stay mid level econ just ahead of P, because if you go for too many drones your army is to small to match his and you will get rolled hard.
There's so much wrong with this post I'm struggling to take it seriously
As soon as he had secured the advantage, he kept trying to force trades by pushing into Cruncher's natural. This in addition kept forcing Cruncher to move his deathball back there instead of allowing him to attack 1 o'clock main (though it's arguable whether he was going to do this, but he was clearly positioning his army for it). It certainly forced him to stay in his base and allowed idra to take the whole map. Drop play on shakura's isn't particularly good, especially when protoss takes these specific expansions, instead of expanding vertically. Now you can argue idra should have done some sort of all-in that hits just before protoss takes his third, but it is actually very difficult to do it on shakura's as both the natural and the expo behind rocks are easily defendable and forcefieldable. The air opening means you can't really do an roach all-in (no, it doesn't work despite Mondragon's games), and hydra timings don't really work in a way that you can get enough of them before the first colossi hits. It is, at least the version that they played on, a bad map for ZvP, just like Cruncher said. As for drone count, an argument can be made that zerg players should sack 20 or so drones when they see the protoss is going for deathball and not intending to take their fourth. Sometimes zergs do this very lategame by throwing down 20 spines, but that wouldn't have been particularly effective against voidray colossus. Idra's dronecount wasn't morrow esque at all, but he had the typical 74, which was likely about what cruncher had.
Whether trading those corruptors for a few void rays was worth it is arguable, but it doesn't appear to have affected the outcome of the game as idra was still maxed with a high corruptor count when the push hit, and there wasn't time to properly reinforce with anything but lings. "Bad" trades is what you are supposed to do as zerg when you are ahead like this against protoss.
He forced no trades at all, he didn't attempt to make any aggressive plays on Cruncher's 3rd which was in a very vulnerable position, instead he attempted to attack head on into the natural/main which cost him big time.
The air opening is weak to many all ins, including any kind of Hydra timing drop.
Did you even watch the game? Cruncher didn't take a normal 3rd timing, he took an extremely GREEDY timing that should have been punished. Idra didn't, and got over confident and allowed Cruncher to take a 3rd without a significant force to defend it. Any kind of big trade at that point would have heavily favored Idra, but he made a huge error in allowing Cruncher to take that 3rd uncontested. You normally take your 3rd as P around 13-14ish minutes because if you take it too fast, any kind of Roach/Hydra bust WILL kill you.
Face it, Idra played bad that game; he was outplayed because he made a whole slew of errors that cost him the game. He wasted so many Corrupters when he could have just kept sniping Colossus with them and kept Cruncher in full turtle mode. Cruncher had like what, 4-5 Colossus?
And drop play isn't good on Shakuras? Maybe against normal P openings, but against Forge FE into air it rapes. At 12-14 minutes any kind of all-in / big trade / drop would have killed Cruncher or put him severely behind. That was a huge mistake by Idra; you let P take an uncontested 3rd in PvZ and he will win almost 99.9% of the time. Anyone decent at this game knows this. Idra knows this, as does every good Z player out there.
I didn't even mention that Idra's hive timing was SUPER late, which also would have helped him fight against the deathball.
On March 29 2011 14:51 tree.hugger wrote: A hearty LOL at all of the IdrA fans coming in here to express their righteous outrage that CrunCher would dare take his well-deserved winners interview to call out his opponent for treating him like a speed bump in the run-up their series. All of the people dropping by to say "I hoped that CrunCher would've taken the opportunity to say what an honor it was to play IdrA and to then allocate a question of his interview to allow IdrA to plug his stream" need to remove the goggles and rejoin the real world. The world in which calling your opponent "a walkover" is an absurd insult, where telling your opponent he has no skill is ridiculous gamesmanship, and where predicting two four gate all-ins looks embarrassing when your opponent does nothing of the sort.
It's clear that IdrA didn't do any research on CrunCher besides his ladder games, which explains why he was convinced in his interview that CrunCher four gates constantly when any follower of CrunCher knows that he favors exactly the opposite. It's clear that IdrA has learned nothing from any of his plethora of embarrassing losses over his career. This happens again and again and yet IdrA keeps treating his peers like dirt and keeps reaping the rewards for his callousness. If you're going to be an IdrA fan, you better take your head out of the sand and start noticing this trend so you can anticipate it when it happens and stop mucking up Team Liquid when you go on tilt.
This post is dead on... I really hope Idra learns from this loss. Raging at the game isn't going to change a thing. He needs to learn to take every match seriously. If he fails to finally realize this, I garuntee will be seeing history repeat itself all throughout his career as a Progamer. Keep in mind, this is his job...
Even assuming what you said is correct and there was a workable timing window, there's something wrong with the game or the map if the zerg has to hit such a window or lose even while taking the whole map and being way ahead. Hopefully 1.3 infestors at least somewhat help.
On March 29 2011 12:05 SiguR wrote: Love the interviews.
This is a gem from cruncher
Idra is extremely overrated and arrogant. If he isn't practicing 24/7, he is nowhere near being a good player.
Relatively unaccomplished protoss player calling one of the best players in the world, who has proven his ability time and time again, overrated? ell oh ell.
Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, but I think he should wait until he wins an actual event before he talks like that. He's being just as rude as the player he is criticizing.
That "relatively unaccomplished Protoss player" beat "one of the best players in the world" in a BoX series. If that isn't an accomplishment, then maybe IdrA isn't one of the best players in the world. And that just confirms Cruncher's statement that IdrA is overrated. All that really matters is that Cruncher is in the Ro16 in the TSL and IdrA is not.
do you have a microphone inside my brain listening in on my thoughts? DO YOU!?
On March 29 2011 16:10 superstartran wrote: It's absolutely amazing that people are trying to say Idra played better in G1 when they don't realize that Idra made fatal mistakes that cost him the game.
1) Did not play aggressive at all, played far too passive and didn't attempt to do any kind of good trades. Didn't snipe Colossus, never attempted to force Cruncher to stay in his base with drop play, didn't switch to any kind of other tech (he had PLENTY of time to do so), etc.
2) Tactically positioned his Corrupters horribly, losing many of them to VRs alone instead of microing them and sniping Colossus. There was a point where he lost something like 15+ Corrupters for no good reason.
3) Allowed Cruncher to take a 3rd UNCONTESTED on Shakuras. You're a god damn idiot if you allow a P to take an uncontested 3rd on Shakuras, and everyone that is decent at the game knows that. P with a fast 3rd like Cruncher can afford to basically camp for his 200/200 deathball and go roll you. Idra made a huge mistake here in allowing Cruncher to secure his 3rd for free. This was a big sign of his overconfidence.
4) Idra made WAY too many drones, thus cutting into his army count big time, when he KNEW for a fact that Cruncher was going for a big 200/200 deathball. To fight deathballs you need to stay mid level econ just ahead of P, because if you go for too many drones your army is to small to match his and you will get rolled hard.
Now you can argue idra should have done some sort of all-in that hits just before protoss takes his third, but it is actually very difficult to do it on shakura's as both the natural and the expo behind rocks are easily defendable and forcefieldable. The air opening means you can't really do an roach all-in (no, it doesn't work despite Mondragon's games), and hydra timings don't really work in a way that you can get enough of them before the first colossi hits.
A Roach all in vs FFE will hit way before P has any air out. And no, IdrA didn't try to force trades, he threw all his Corruptors away killing ONE Void Ray. Well played.
As for the interview, I think IdrA deserves it but Cruncher still looks like a prick.
On March 29 2011 16:10 superstartran wrote: It's absolutely amazing that people are trying to say Idra played better in G1 when they don't realize that Idra made fatal mistakes that cost him the game.
1) Did not play aggressive at all, played far too passive and didn't attempt to do any kind of good trades. Didn't snipe Colossus, never attempted to force Cruncher to stay in his base with drop play, didn't switch to any kind of other tech (he had PLENTY of time to do so), etc.
2) Tactically positioned his Corrupters horribly, losing many of them to VRs alone instead of microing them and sniping Colossus. There was a point where he lost something like 15+ Corrupters for no good reason.
3) Allowed Cruncher to take a 3rd UNCONTESTED on Shakuras. You're a god damn idiot if you allow a P to take an uncontested 3rd on Shakuras, and everyone that is decent at the game knows that. P with a fast 3rd like Cruncher can afford to basically camp for his 200/200 deathball and go roll you. Idra made a huge mistake here in allowing Cruncher to secure his 3rd for free. This was a big sign of his overconfidence.
4) Idra made WAY too many drones, thus cutting into his army count big time, when he KNEW for a fact that Cruncher was going for a big 200/200 deathball. To fight deathballs you need to stay mid level econ just ahead of P, because if you go for too many drones your army is to small to match his and you will get rolled hard.
Now you can argue idra should have done some sort of all-in that hits just before protoss takes his third, but it is actually very difficult to do it on shakura's as both the natural and the expo behind rocks are easily defendable and forcefieldable. The air opening means you can't really do an roach all-in (no, it doesn't work despite Mondragon's games), and hydra timings don't really work in a way that you can get enough of them before the first colossi hits.
A Roach all in vs FFE will hit way before P has any air out. And no, IdrA didn't try to force trades, he threw all his Corruptors away killing ONE Void Ray. Well played.
As for the interview, I think IdrA deserves it but Cruncher still looks like a prick.
That's a different roach all-in than I was talking about, and relies heavily on protoss not making enough cannons or simcitying. You'll also get the void ray out during the push, which may or may not be too late depending on how well you simcitied during it.
I don't understand how any fan of the game can like Crunsher. This guy is a disgrace, and deserves nothing but contempt. He is a mixture between arrogance and incompetence, who's enjoying his small skill-less victory far too much. And that comes from a guy who doesn't even like idra.
On March 29 2011 16:34 syllogism wrote: Even assuming what you said is correct and there was a workable timing window, there's something wrong with the game or the map if the zerg has to hit such a window or lose even while taking the whole map and being way ahead. Hopefully 1.3 infestors at least somewhat help.
I never said there was nothing wrong with the game (design wise), but it is Idra's fault for not contesting Cruncher's 3rd when he was taking it at an extremely greedy timing that most P don't attempt because they are afraid of any kind of Roach bust. Cruncher started putting down his 3rd at just around 11 minutes, which is ULTRA greedy since he did not have the unit count to really defend it against any kind of big attack.
All I'm pointing out is that Idra did NOT play well in game 1. He played exactly into Cruncher's hands, allowed him to take a free 3rd, did not force any kind of trade at all that favored him (lost a boatload of Corrupters to VRs for no apparent reason), did not punish Cruncher for opening Forge FE = > VR (which is a VERY punishable build, especially if you take a fast 3rd like that).
Idra was passive, his Hive timing was waaaaaaaay late (didn't have Broodlords when he needed them, didn't have Ultras, had no Infestors, too many Hydras, etc.) among the many other mistakes that I listed. Those were just obvious mistakes to anyone remotely familiar with PvZ at mid = > high Masters. You cannot allow P to take an early 3rd like that, and you cannot allow P to Forge FE into VR/Phoenix and go unpunished with it (especially when he does almost no damage to you). Any normal 12 minute timing attack by Z would have forced Cruncher to defend his 3rd, as he would not have the gas to support a VR/Colossus army that quickly without it. If he defends there early, he has no cannons, and only has like 2 Colossus to defend his 3rd, meanwhile Idra is sitting pretty on 4 bases with 2 bases saturated and a 3rd almost saturated, with the 4th just done.
Of course Idra does no such thing, allows Cruncher to probe up and cannon his 3rd, while making a massive VR/Colossus deathball, and makes horrible decisions overall the entire game. Anyone remotely decent knows that Idra played honestly horrible despite the massive map control that he had in G1.
On March 29 2011 16:43 MilesTeg wrote: I don't understand how any fan of the game can like Crunsher. This guy is a disgrace, and deserves nothing but contempt. He is a mixture between arrogance and incompetence, who's enjoying his small skill-less victory far too much. And that comes from a guy who doesn't even like idra.
Especially after seeing the quotes linked above
also, ultras and broodlords are worthless against void ray colossi, unfortunately. The game was played on 1.2, so infestors wouldn't have been worthwhile at all.
You are once again asserting protoss was "greedy", but protoss was also way behind
EPT
