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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 07 2010 07:51 Carnac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 07:04 Schnake wrote:
I think the exact opposite. Tastosis missed a couple of important things, whereas Carnac captured them perfectly. I am quite happy with the obs. :o) Nah, I missed a few things or realized some stuff too late and I'm not really happy with it overall. In my defense though, I wasn't supposed to do it today in the first place. Intrigue was in the process of getting set up in preparation of the broadcast, when his power went out because of a snow storm and what no, so I had to jump in at the last minute. I didn't get a chance to look at the games beforehand like I should have and couldn't concentrate as well as I would have liked. And for Artosis & Tasteless it's hard because it's damn fucking late when they do it (the cast starts at 4 AM their time!).
That  Power Outage strikes again eh
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On February 07 2010 07:48 pioneer8 wrote:
I'll compare with the Korean observers. They observe the map in a calm, steady way, clicking certain buildings and units, and moving to certain areas that are important as the game progresses. They highlight certain areas, and work as a team with the commentators to help the people better watch and understand the game.
For the TSL in general, not just this set, I cannot list the number of times the observer has been looking somewhere completely different for 30 seconds, while the commentators are talking and philosophizing about something else.
Thanks guys, please get someone else or make improvements on the one now... as i said, my only real complaint with this awesome tourney.
You know what else the korean observers have? a salary. Dont forget this is a free service you are getting here. I think overall its a great tournament and I really enjoyed all the casts, yeah the obs and commentators missed a few things but its not like you cant deduce most of it from the minimap anyways.
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I think Carnac did a great job obsing, and its more of Tastosis just missing A LOT of things. I think if the casters weren't casting in the dead of night and were actually awake they might have been able to notice more of the subtleties that Carnac was showing; then everything would sync up more, since Carnac was really showing some important stuff throughout the games.
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I'm not personally insulting you Carnac. I think my advice holds some merit. Try to pay more attention to the commentators while the game is going on. Listen to them and work as a team. This applies to intrigue as well as i believe hes the other observer. Thanks.
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Braavos36387 Posts
On February 07 2010 07:48 pioneer8 wrote:
I'll compare with the Korean observers. They observe the map in a calm, steady way, clicking certain buildings and units, and moving to certain areas that are important as the game progresses. They highlight certain areas, and work as a team with the commentators to help the people better watch and understand the game.
For the TSL in general, not just this set, I cannot list the number of times the observer has been looking somewhere completely different for 30 seconds, while the commentators are talking and philosophizing about something else.
Thanks guys, please get someone else or make improvements on the one now... as i said, my only real complaint with this awesome tourney.
I would love to have a level of obs that is the same as Korean observers.
I would also love to have a broadcast studio with a huge crowd.
Maybe a sponsor like Coca-Cola or Nike too.
And maybe it'd be nice to have Jaedong and Flash level players in every single series.
Oh, and throw in 10 million viewers and hundreds of thousands of dollars in prizes maybe.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On February 07 2010 07:56 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm not personally insulting you Carnac. I think my advice holds some merit. Try to pay more attention to the commentators while the game is going on. Listen to them and work as a team. This applies to intrigue as well as i believe hes the other observer. Thanks.
Yeah because I'm purposefully not paying as much attention as I could. Right?
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Braavos36387 Posts
On February 07 2010 07:56 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm not personally insulting you Carnac. I think my advice holds some merit. Try to pay more attention to the commentators while the game is going on. Listen to them and work as a team. This applies to intrigue as well as i believe hes the other observer. Thanks.
Perhaps you should have said this first instead of posting "well every game in TSL2 is poorly observed." Your first post was quite ridiculous, and it's pretty easy to take it as an insult when you say something like that.
As I said we had issues where due to a power failure (snowstorm) on the east coast, we had to switch obs and the obs (Carnac) didn't have time to pre-watch the Terran-JF series. So the choice was either Carnac could pre-watch the replays and be ready with a 30+ minute cast delay, or we could start on time with Carnac not having seen the Terran-JF series. (Again, to be clear, the casters don't pre-watch the series, only our observer).
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I'm sorry, i shouldn't have said poor, i should have said mediocre. I'm trying to be objective. What the Koreans do isn't all that hard, it just takes cooperation, focus, and deep game knowledge. I'm just calling for the tournament to be improved. I know it's hard to be objective, but im really not trying to insult you personally.
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One thing I would like the observer to periodically show the state of the players' economy, production capacity (factories, gates, rax, etc), and tech, especially when a new base, new production buildings, or new tech was being added. A lot of times new tech was added but the audience wasn't aware of it for awhile. And when a big square showed up in the minimap at an expansion, the viewer had to guess if it was an expansion or maybe just units there. Of course the observer should also try to catch clashes between armies and it's much more exciting to follow an entire harass attempt from start to finish. It may be useful to have a secondary observer to watch for things and tell the primary observer of things he or she might be missing so the primary observer can catch things he or she overlooked much more quickly.
And freeing the commentators from controlling their own view could help them cast better.
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I dunno man, it seemed like Carnac caught a lot of action that tasteless and artosis didn't until a while later. For example we [observers] would be watching drops and harassment going on in bases while they [commentators] would just be talking about the gateway count or something of that nature. I'm not hating on them because I know how early it is in the morning. I think carnac did a good job though for stepping in so late.
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Calgary25989 Posts
On February 07 2010 07:59 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm sorry, i shouldn't have said poor, i should have said mediocre. I'm trying to be objective. What the Koreans do isn't all that hard, it just takes cooperation, focus, and deep game knowledge. I'm just calling for the tournament to be improved. I know it's hard to be objective, but im really not trying to insult you personally.
Offer real suggestions. "Do it better" doesn't help. For comparison, try observing a game yourself and you will quickly see how difficult it is.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
Btw, this is about what it looks like from my perspective whem I'm doing it, just to get you an idea:
It's pretty hard to stay focused for hours in wmode, trying not to miss too much of the action, while listening to the casters (& trying to focus on what they say and lead the camera accordingly) and also glancing at the internal chat we have going on at the same time (and even typing there sometimes during the game).
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On February 07 2010 07:57 Hot_Bid wrote: (Again, to be clear, the casters don't pre-watch the series, only our observer).
I also think that that is part of what makes the observing not as exciting or cohesive with the commentating. There are dozens, if not hundreds of people that would be able to observe just as good as the Koreans, with their level of knowledge, and pay attention to the commentators, AND be live.
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On February 07 2010 08:04 pioneer8 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 07:57 Hot_Bid wrote: (Again, to be clear, the casters don't pre-watch the series, only our observer). I also think that that is part of what makes the observing not as exciting or cohesive with the commentating. There are dozens, if not hundreds of people that would be able to observe just as good as the Koreans, with their level of knowledge, and pay attention to the commentators, AND be live.
Why dont you do it yourself then ?
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On February 07 2010 08:03 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 07:59 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm sorry, i shouldn't have said poor, i should have said mediocre. I'm trying to be objective. What the Koreans do isn't all that hard, it just takes cooperation, focus, and deep game knowledge. I'm just calling for the tournament to be improved. I know it's hard to be objective, but im really not trying to insult you personally. Offer real suggestions. "Do it better" doesn't help. For comparison, try observing a game yourself and you will quickly see how difficult it is.
Seriously. How often have you watched a replay and missed stuff.
Even Korean camera controllers of progaming matches miss stuff and they do it for a living, doing it every week for years...
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Calgary25989 Posts
On February 07 2010 08:04 pioneer8 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 07:57 Hot_Bid wrote: (Again, to be clear, the casters don't pre-watch the series, only our observer). I also think that that is part of what makes the observing not as exciting or cohesive with the commentating. There are dozens, if not hundreds of people that would be able to observe just as good as the Koreans, with their level of knowledge, and pay attention to the commentators, AND be live.
What is? The fact that they prewatch the games? They do that so that they don't miss key points, which they typically don't. You're not making sense.
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On February 07 2010 08:08 Carnac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 08:03 Chill wrote:On February 07 2010 07:59 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm sorry, i shouldn't have said poor, i should have said mediocre. I'm trying to be objective. What the Koreans do isn't all that hard, it just takes cooperation, focus, and deep game knowledge. I'm just calling for the tournament to be improved. I know it's hard to be objective, but im really not trying to insult you personally. Offer real suggestions. "Do it better" doesn't help. For comparison, try observing a game yourself and you will quickly see how difficult it is. Seriously. How often have you watched a replay and missed stuff. Even Korean camera controllers of progaming matches miss stuff and they do it for a living, doing it every week for years...
Yes, but there are hundreds of Starcraft fans who have watched thousands of games and can play at B/A rank at ICCUP.
Also, why is it neccesary to observe the game in windowed mode?
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To Chill : The observer is as important as the commentators in a cast like this and it is similar to if the commentators pre-watched the game, it loses some of the surprise and intensity, and general excitement from the game observervation.
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Braavos36387 Posts
On February 07 2010 07:59 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm sorry, i shouldn't have said poor, i should have said mediocre. I'm trying to be objective. What the Koreans do isn't all that hard, it just takes cooperation, focus, and deep game knowledge. I'm just calling for the tournament to be improved. I know it's hard to be objective, but im really not trying to insult you personally.
I think you greatly underestimate how hard it is to be a StarCraft observer if you think we can just get better by "focusing harder."
Are you still saying that the observing was "mediocre" in every single game? Clearly there were larger observing errors in Game 1 of Terran-JF, that's why this thread was made. If it was equally bad throughout the rest of the games there would be a thread about it already.
1. You post saying every TSL obs has been poor in every game.
2. I point out this isn't the case, it's just one game (the JF-Terran G1) and there were mitigating circumstances (power outage, no prep time, etc).
3. You ignore this and compare us to a Korean proscene that has ran hundreds of tournaments, with people who have full time jobs with tens of thousands of games of experience. And you say what they do is "not that hard" and we can do it if we just "focus and cooperate."
4. Then I make a point again about how we can't really do this right now, given our circumstances. Have you noticed the improvement in production quality, casting, organization, and everything else since TSL1? Perhaps in the future we can aspire to a quality level of OGN broadcasts, but saying "its not that hard" after saying "all the TSL2 games were poorly obs'd" is ridiculous. Just look at MSL Finals -- what happened there? Were "all MSL matches poorly power supplied?"
5. You say oh sorry, meant to say "mediocre" not "poor." Then you say we're taking your comment too personally and you're just trying to get us to "improve TSL," which by what you said implies we are somehow not improving on purpose or knowingly ignoring obvious places to improve.
Are you really suggesting this sequence of posts (#1-5) is perfectly fine? Obviously, we know our obsing can be improved. We know there are plenty of places to improve. We know the Korean casts are better. We know we could've started the cast 50 minutes late with Carnac having pre-watched the JF-Terran games, we could've bought Intrigue a backup power generator in case his power went down.
We take all criticism and suggestions very seriously, but there's a reason why we responded to yours so negatively and everyone else's so positively.
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I don't think it's fair comparing to the Korean observers. Pretty much all of them are former pros or at least semipros, and even someone like Day 9 obses quite well without even practicing it because he's good at observing what happens / watching the minimap etc. The Korean observers also practice it daily, actually do it almost daily in real matches and do it as a job etc. Of course it's going to be better -_-
Although the obsing has some flaws at times, comparing it to some other observers(moletrap), it really isn't too bad and the fact that the obs can / actually does listen to the commentators still is a great thing and even if it isn't perfect, still makes it good enough for me. Apart from JF vs GosiT I didn't really see any problems with the obsing. Maybe need to look at the mini map more often but that should be fine.
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Calgary25989 Posts
On February 07 2010 08:11 pioneer8 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 08:08 Carnac wrote:On February 07 2010 08:03 Chill wrote:On February 07 2010 07:59 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm sorry, i shouldn't have said poor, i should have said mediocre. I'm trying to be objective. What the Koreans do isn't all that hard, it just takes cooperation, focus, and deep game knowledge. I'm just calling for the tournament to be improved. I know it's hard to be objective, but im really not trying to insult you personally. Offer real suggestions. "Do it better" doesn't help. For comparison, try observing a game yourself and you will quickly see how difficult it is. Seriously. How often have you watched a replay and missed stuff. Even Korean camera controllers of progaming matches miss stuff and they do it for a living, doing it every week for years... Yes, but there are hundreds of Starcraft fans who have watched thousands of games and can play at B/A rank at ICCUP. Also, why is it neccesary to observe the game in windowed mode?
Take this as your official warning. You've made your point that you think people can do it better and that you don't like it. If you have any real suggestions, post them. If not, do not post again in this thread.
The observer is running what you see on screen, so it is his job to run the overlay, transition between videos, and update the scores, player names, positions and colours. You can't do that from within Starcraft.
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