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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On February 07 2010 08:11 pioneer8 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 08:08 Carnac wrote:On February 07 2010 08:03 Chill wrote:On February 07 2010 07:59 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm sorry, i shouldn't have said poor, i should have said mediocre. I'm trying to be objective. What the Koreans do isn't all that hard, it just takes cooperation, focus, and deep game knowledge. I'm just calling for the tournament to be improved. I know it's hard to be objective, but im really not trying to insult you personally. Offer real suggestions. "Do it better" doesn't help. For comparison, try observing a game yourself and you will quickly see how difficult it is. Seriously. How often have you watched a replay and missed stuff. Even Korean camera controllers of progaming matches miss stuff and they do it for a living, doing it every week for years... Yes, but there are hundreds of Starcraft fans who have watched thousands of games and can play at B/A rank at ICCUP. Also, why is it neccesary to observe the game in windowed mode?
Did you look at the screenshot? It's pretty telling why.
Also for obvious reasons we are limited to TL staff. And within the staff limited to people who have a computer that is fast enough to encode it all and have enough bandwidth to stream it to the server.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On February 07 2010 08:01 Zona wrote:
One thing I would like the observer to periodically show the state of the players' economy, production capacity (factories, gates, rax, etc), and tech, especially when a new base, new production buildings, or new tech was being added. A lot of times new tech was added but the audience wasn't aware of it for awhile. And when a big square showed up in the minimap at an expansion, the viewer had to guess if it was an expansion or maybe just units there. Of course the observer should also try to catch clashes between armies and it's much more exciting to follow an entire harass attempt from start to finish. It may be useful to have a secondary observer to watch for things and tell the primary observer of things he or she might be missing so the primary observer can catch things he or she overlooked much more quickly.
And freeing the commentators from controlling their own view could help them cast better.
That's fair but can you read while commentating? You can hear the commentators stop commentating when they're getting fed information because it's extremely difficult to cast while reading. Similarly, I don't see how you expect the observer to continue observer while reading comments from another observer. We haven't found a way to unit the observer's screen with the casters' yet, but having another observer doesn't seem to be the answer.
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Braavos36402 Posts
On February 07 2010 08:11 pioneer8 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 08:08 Carnac wrote:On February 07 2010 08:03 Chill wrote:On February 07 2010 07:59 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm sorry, i shouldn't have said poor, i should have said mediocre. I'm trying to be objective. What the Koreans do isn't all that hard, it just takes cooperation, focus, and deep game knowledge. I'm just calling for the tournament to be improved. I know it's hard to be objective, but im really not trying to insult you personally. Offer real suggestions. "Do it better" doesn't help. For comparison, try observing a game yourself and you will quickly see how difficult it is. Seriously. How often have you watched a replay and missed stuff. Even Korean camera controllers of progaming matches miss stuff and they do it for a living, doing it every week for years... Yes, but there are hundreds of Starcraft fans who have watched thousands of games and can play at B/A rank at ICCUP.
I'm sorry but this is an absolutely retarded comment. Yes, we will just pick up a random ICCup B rank player, train him to run WireCast, have him be a person we can trust to show up every single weekend without promising pay, do night before test casts, pre-broadcast prep for many hours, watch the replays, and then execute it perfectly even when things go wrong. I'm sure these people just grow on trees.
Also, why is it neccesary to observe the game in windowed mode?
Because without it, we would not have all those nice match previews, stream overlays, and production value that makes sponsors want to get the tournament. This is essentially asking "why does OGN have its games in a studio?"
Are you really suggesting we just randomly have our obs do it windowed mode without a reason?
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Calgary26003 Posts
On February 07 2010 08:11 pioneer8 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 08:08 Carnac wrote:On February 07 2010 08:03 Chill wrote:On February 07 2010 07:59 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm sorry, i shouldn't have said poor, i should have said mediocre. I'm trying to be objective. What the Koreans do isn't all that hard, it just takes cooperation, focus, and deep game knowledge. I'm just calling for the tournament to be improved. I know it's hard to be objective, but im really not trying to insult you personally. Offer real suggestions. "Do it better" doesn't help. For comparison, try observing a game yourself and you will quickly see how difficult it is. Seriously. How often have you watched a replay and missed stuff. Even Korean camera controllers of progaming matches miss stuff and they do it for a living, doing it every week for years... To Chill : The observer is as important as the commentators in a cast like this and it is similar to if the commentators pre-watched the game, it loses some of the surprise and intensity, and general excitement from the game observervation.
Howso? How are you infering excitement from the observer? How is an observer going to build surprise into a Starcraft game? These are real questions I expect you to answer.
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I find the observer to be pretty good in general, Carnac is better than intrigue. It's actually the casters who miss things or catch them too late as they have to react w/o knowing the results of the game.
But given the circumstances, the setup with the observer having already seen the game is a great innovation.
What I'd like to see more of is the obs should click on buildings in progress (like protoss buildings warping-in and there's just a circle and you don't know what it is) and random units so we can see upgrades more often.
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On February 07 2010 06:43 zatic wrote:
The casters can't control the observer for technical reasons. Yes there were slip ups in this cast but please don't exaggerate those few mistakes.
We have the same observers as for all the other TSL games and over all they are doing a good job.
Many of the casts have had bad "camera work". For example, the casters frequently have to tell the observer to look at something that he isn't, and sometimes he never does. I'm assuming that when Tasteless is frequently saying "look at X" he is telling the observer, but maybe he's just saying it to Artosis. Regardless, when he says that, the observer (hearing him or not) misses the indicated action/building/unit frequently.
User was banned for sending this PM to an admin:
The way you and your fellow admins handle this site disgusts me. You're a bunch of children and it made me feel nice to make fun of you.
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My suggestion was to make the entire tournament better by improving certain aspects of it. I said a few times that my primary suggestion is trying to be more cooperative with the commentators. It's just my opinion, im not trying to say the tournament or anybody sucks, and i shouldnt have said it was poor.
I also suggest that you figure out a way to observe in full screen mode. That would help alot. Thanks.
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On February 07 2010 08:18 pioneer8 wrote:
I also suggest that you figure out a way to observe in full screen mode. That would help alot. Thanks.
Man, the screenshot shows that he needs to be in windowed mode for all the transition images and to be on IRC if there is technical troubles. Like if the sound suddenly cuts off on the stream he wouldn't realize it because he wouldn't be able to see the IRC chat.
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Braavos36402 Posts
On February 07 2010 08:18 pioneer8 wrote:
My suggestion was to make the entire tournament better by improving certain aspects of it. I said a few times that my primary suggestion is trying to be more cooperative with the commentators. It's just my opinion, im not trying to say the tournament or anybody sucks, and i shouldnt have said it was poor.
I also suggest that you figure out a way to observe in full screen mode. That would help alot. Thanks.
I wish we could "figure that out" too. I also wish we could "figure out a way" to get $100,000 prize money and our own localized production studio. Thanks for your suggestions.
On February 07 2010 08:20 David Mudkips wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 08:18 pioneer8 wrote:
I also suggest that you figure out a way to observe in full screen mode. That would help alot. Thanks. Man, the screenshot shows that he needs to be in windowed mode for all the transition images and to be on IRC if there is technical troubles. Like if the sound suddenly cuts off on the stream he wouldn't realize it because he wouldn't be able to see the IRC chat.
Correct. However, who knows. Maybe through the magical powers of "more cooperation and focus" we can somehow "just figure out" the "not that hard" Korean broadcast production value.
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On February 07 2010 08:17 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 08:11 pioneer8 wrote:On February 07 2010 08:08 Carnac wrote:On February 07 2010 08:03 Chill wrote:On February 07 2010 07:59 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm sorry, i shouldn't have said poor, i should have said mediocre. I'm trying to be objective. What the Koreans do isn't all that hard, it just takes cooperation, focus, and deep game knowledge. I'm just calling for the tournament to be improved. I know it's hard to be objective, but im really not trying to insult you personally. Offer real suggestions. "Do it better" doesn't help. For comparison, try observing a game yourself and you will quickly see how difficult it is. Seriously. How often have you watched a replay and missed stuff. Even Korean camera controllers of progaming matches miss stuff and they do it for a living, doing it every week for years... To Chill : The observer is as important as the commentators in a cast like this and it is similar to if the commentators pre-watched the game, it loses some of the surprise and intensity, and general excitement from the game observervation. Howso? How are you infering excitement from the observer? How is an observer going to build surprise into a Starcraft game? These are real questions I expect you to answer.
You ask those questions in such a rude manner, like they cannot be answered. Are you questioning whether or not he knows the answers, or do you actually think he's wrong?
P.S. He's not.
User was banned for sending this PM to an admin:
The way you and your fellow admins handle this site disgusts me. You're a bunch of children and it made me feel nice to make fun of you.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On February 07 2010 08:17 Attritive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 06:43 zatic wrote:
The casters can't control the observer for technical reasons. Yes there were slip ups in this cast but please don't exaggerate those few mistakes.
We have the same observers as for all the other TSL games and over all they are doing a good job. Many of the casts have had bad "camera work". For example, the casters frequently have to tell the observer to look at something that he isn't, and sometimes he never does. I'm assuming that when Tasteless is frequently saying "look at X" he is telling the observer, but maybe he's just saying it to Artosis. Regardless, when he says that, the observer (hearing him or not) misses the indicated action/building/unit frequently.
He's saying it for the benefit of the observer. There is no communication between caster and observer, so we can't know what they are looking at. Hence "frequently have to tell the observer to look at something that he isn't" is not true, since there is no way to know what he is looking at.
Look, Korean casters react to the observers. We are the opposite, the observer has to react to the caster, so if we can say something to trigger him to look at a location, of course we do. The end goal is that everyone is watching a united cast.
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I'd just like to step up and say observing and controlling the camera for the stream IS HARD. Any of you guys trash talking about how bad the observing was ever tried it? You have to reduce your scroll speed so it doesnt go too fast, you can't click too fast you have to make sure you catch important buildings being built as well as any major engagements. Then when you have battles on two fronts you have to try and show both without switching back and forth too quickly.
ITS FUCKING HARD back the eff off the observing in the TSL2 isnt to the Korean standards you're using to seeing but still I'd like to see you try it.
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Braavos36402 Posts
On February 07 2010 08:20 Attritive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 08:17 Chill wrote:On February 07 2010 08:11 pioneer8 wrote:On February 07 2010 08:08 Carnac wrote:On February 07 2010 08:03 Chill wrote:On February 07 2010 07:59 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm sorry, i shouldn't have said poor, i should have said mediocre. I'm trying to be objective. What the Koreans do isn't all that hard, it just takes cooperation, focus, and deep game knowledge. I'm just calling for the tournament to be improved. I know it's hard to be objective, but im really not trying to insult you personally. Offer real suggestions. "Do it better" doesn't help. For comparison, try observing a game yourself and you will quickly see how difficult it is. Seriously. How often have you watched a replay and missed stuff. Even Korean camera controllers of progaming matches miss stuff and they do it for a living, doing it every week for years... To Chill : The observer is as important as the commentators in a cast like this and it is similar to if the commentators pre-watched the game, it loses some of the surprise and intensity, and general excitement from the game observervation. Howso? How are you infering excitement from the observer? How is an observer going to build surprise into a Starcraft game? These are real questions I expect you to answer. You ask those questions in such a rude manner, like they cannot be answered. Are you questioning whether or not he knows the answers, or do you actually think he's wrong? P.S. He's not.
They are largely rhetorical questions, because its obvious what the answers are.
P.S. He is wrong. There is no difference with regards to spoilers between an obs pre-watching the reps and an obs not pre-watching the replays. It's always better for the obs to pre-watch in case so he doesn't miss simultaneous action. Just look at the complaints about this series, it was the only one that was not pre-watched (due to unforeseen snowstorm power outage). What pioneer8 is suggesting is that somehow the obs pre-watching is making the obsing worse when it's actually doing the opposite.
As long as the casters don't watch the replays the "liveness" is preserved.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On February 07 2010 08:20 Attritive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 08:17 Chill wrote:On February 07 2010 08:11 pioneer8 wrote:On February 07 2010 08:08 Carnac wrote:On February 07 2010 08:03 Chill wrote:On February 07 2010 07:59 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm sorry, i shouldn't have said poor, i should have said mediocre. I'm trying to be objective. What the Koreans do isn't all that hard, it just takes cooperation, focus, and deep game knowledge. I'm just calling for the tournament to be improved. I know it's hard to be objective, but im really not trying to insult you personally. Offer real suggestions. "Do it better" doesn't help. For comparison, try observing a game yourself and you will quickly see how difficult it is. Seriously. How often have you watched a replay and missed stuff. Even Korean camera controllers of progaming matches miss stuff and they do it for a living, doing it every week for years... To Chill : The observer is as important as the commentators in a cast like this and it is similar to if the commentators pre-watched the game, it loses some of the surprise and intensity, and general excitement from the game observervation. Howso? How are you infering excitement from the observer? How is an observer going to build surprise into a Starcraft game? These are real questions I expect you to answer. You ask those questions in such a rude manner, like they cannot be answered. Are you questioning whether or not he knows the answers, or do you actually think he's wrong? P.S. He's not.
Yes they are real questions, feel free to jump in. Criticism is always appreciated if it ends in a tangible suggestion for improvement. I seriously am failing to see how forcing the observers not to prewatch the games would improve the experience when the basis of this thread is they are missing key moments.
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On February 07 2010 08:22 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 08:17 Attritive wrote:On February 07 2010 06:43 zatic wrote:
The casters can't control the observer for technical reasons. Yes there were slip ups in this cast but please don't exaggerate those few mistakes.
We have the same observers as for all the other TSL games and over all they are doing a good job. Many of the casts have had bad "camera work". For example, the casters frequently have to tell the observer to look at something that he isn't, and sometimes he never does. I'm assuming that when Tasteless is frequently saying "look at X" he is telling the observer, but maybe he's just saying it to Artosis. Regardless, when he says that, the observer (hearing him or not) misses the indicated action/building/unit frequently. He's saying it for the benefit of the observer. There is no communication between caster and observer, so we can't know what they are looking at. Hence "frequently have to tell the observer to look at something that he isn't" is not true, since there is no way to know what he is looking at. Look, Korean casters react to the observers. We are the opposite, the observer has to react to the caster, so if we can say something to trigger him to look at a location, of course we do. The end goal is that everyone is watching a united cast.
And the end result is the observer frequently missing things. So people try to point this out and get flamed by admins.
User was banned for sending this PM to an admin:
The way you and your fellow admins handle this site disgusts me. You're a bunch of children and it made me feel nice to make fun of you.
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If and only IF they had the option to switch to FIRST PERSON POINT OF VIEW. That would be so much better.
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On February 07 2010 08:20 Attritive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 08:17 Chill wrote:On February 07 2010 08:11 pioneer8 wrote:On February 07 2010 08:08 Carnac wrote:On February 07 2010 08:03 Chill wrote:On February 07 2010 07:59 pioneer8 wrote:
I'm sorry, i shouldn't have said poor, i should have said mediocre. I'm trying to be objective. What the Koreans do isn't all that hard, it just takes cooperation, focus, and deep game knowledge. I'm just calling for the tournament to be improved. I know it's hard to be objective, but im really not trying to insult you personally. Offer real suggestions. "Do it better" doesn't help. For comparison, try observing a game yourself and you will quickly see how difficult it is. Seriously. How often have you watched a replay and missed stuff. Even Korean camera controllers of progaming matches miss stuff and they do it for a living, doing it every week for years... To Chill : The observer is as important as the commentators in a cast like this and it is similar to if the commentators pre-watched the game, it loses some of the surprise and intensity, and general excitement from the game observervation. Howso? How are you infering excitement from the observer? How is an observer going to build surprise into a Starcraft game? These are real questions I expect you to answer. You ask those questions in such a rude manner, like they cannot be answered. Are you questioning whether or not he knows the answers, or do you actually think he's wrong? P.S. He's not.
As i said, "it is similar to if the commentators pre-watched the game, it loses some of the surprise and intensity, and general excitement," but for example, think of all the times in close intense games, observers making football coach esque drawing with his cursor to the audience to show what is going on, intensely looking from spot to spot, with interest and intensity.
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On February 07 2010 08:24 Attritive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 08:22 Chill wrote:On February 07 2010 08:17 Attritive wrote:On February 07 2010 06:43 zatic wrote:
The casters can't control the observer for technical reasons. Yes there were slip ups in this cast but please don't exaggerate those few mistakes.
We have the same observers as for all the other TSL games and over all they are doing a good job. Many of the casts have had bad "camera work". For example, the casters frequently have to tell the observer to look at something that he isn't, and sometimes he never does. I'm assuming that when Tasteless is frequently saying "look at X" he is telling the observer, but maybe he's just saying it to Artosis. Regardless, when he says that, the observer (hearing him or not) misses the indicated action/building/unit frequently. He's saying it for the benefit of the observer. There is no communication between caster and observer, so we can't know what they are looking at. Hence "frequently have to tell the observer to look at something that he isn't" is not true, since there is no way to know what he is looking at. Look, Korean casters react to the observers. We are the opposite, the observer has to react to the caster, so if we can say something to trigger him to look at a location, of course we do. The end goal is that everyone is watching a united cast. And the end result is the observer frequently missing things. So people try to point this out and get flamed by admins.
Its not about pointing it out it's about HOW YOU POINT it out. And its not just the admins I find this thread horrible. So you took issue with a few points where they missed a few key moments on the stream. Don't degrade the ENTIRE observing for the TSL so far, be realistic point out specific examples and be constructive.
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Braavos36402 Posts
On February 07 2010 08:24 Attritive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 08:22 Chill wrote:On February 07 2010 08:17 Attritive wrote:On February 07 2010 06:43 zatic wrote:
The casters can't control the observer for technical reasons. Yes there were slip ups in this cast but please don't exaggerate those few mistakes.
We have the same observers as for all the other TSL games and over all they are doing a good job. Many of the casts have had bad "camera work". For example, the casters frequently have to tell the observer to look at something that he isn't, and sometimes he never does. I'm assuming that when Tasteless is frequently saying "look at X" he is telling the observer, but maybe he's just saying it to Artosis. Regardless, when he says that, the observer (hearing him or not) misses the indicated action/building/unit frequently. He's saying it for the benefit of the observer. There is no communication between caster and observer, so we can't know what they are looking at. Hence "frequently have to tell the observer to look at something that he isn't" is not true, since there is no way to know what he is looking at. Look, Korean casters react to the observers. We are the opposite, the observer has to react to the caster, so if we can say something to trigger him to look at a location, of course we do. The end goal is that everyone is watching a united cast. And the end result is the observer frequently missing things. So people try to point this out and get flamed by admins.
I don't think you fully read or understand the post conversation between Chill and pioneer8.
1. We say that the obs pre-watches replays to not miss things.
2. Carnac couldn't pre-watch JF-Terran, causing a few obsing errors.
3. Pioneer8 suggets that we are spoiling the matches or making them worse by obs pre-watching.
4. Chill calls him out on this.
5. You post that Chill is wrong and Pioneer8 is right.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On February 07 2010 08:24 Attritive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 08:22 Chill wrote:On February 07 2010 08:17 Attritive wrote:On February 07 2010 06:43 zatic wrote:
The casters can't control the observer for technical reasons. Yes there were slip ups in this cast but please don't exaggerate those few mistakes.
We have the same observers as for all the other TSL games and over all they are doing a good job. Many of the casts have had bad "camera work". For example, the casters frequently have to tell the observer to look at something that he isn't, and sometimes he never does. I'm assuming that when Tasteless is frequently saying "look at X" he is telling the observer, but maybe he's just saying it to Artosis. Regardless, when he says that, the observer (hearing him or not) misses the indicated action/building/unit frequently. He's saying it for the benefit of the observer. There is no communication between caster and observer, so we can't know what they are looking at. Hence "frequently have to tell the observer to look at something that he isn't" is not true, since there is no way to know what he is looking at. Look, Korean casters react to the observers. We are the opposite, the observer has to react to the caster, so if we can say something to trigger him to look at a location, of course we do. The end goal is that everyone is watching a united cast. And the end result is the observer frequently missing things. So people try to point this out and get flamed by admins.
How should we fix it? There's tons of other problems with the TSL, like I don't get shipped water by a bikini-clad servant while I cast, and my office chair doesn't have a build-in toilet. If there aren't realistic solutions to the problem then what are we to do besides explain why things are the way they are? "Do better" doesn't help us.
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