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Hello, all!
It's become quite apparent that many of you are not reading the first post carefully.
Failure to do so in the future will be met with swift punishment. And as always, remember to be civil.
Thanks,
Empyrean. Time stamp: 03:59 KST. |
Here's the way I see things, for what it's worth. I agree with the ban, Idra behaved as Idra often behaves when he's heated over someone or something. After refusing to apologise and basically saying that he'd do it all again, he offered little choice but to give a harsher punishment. It's obviously not an EASY decision to hand out a 90 day ban to one of the most prominent members in the community, but boundries have to be set and authority has to be given respect. If Idra wishes to use this site, then he knows that he must behave in a certain way; by purposefully ignoring that fact he is going to incur these kind of bans.
However...
I'm not sure i'm on board with the Cruncher decision. While the evidence is not 100% foolproof, it definitely stacks against him. We are basically going on Crunchers word that it was muted and minimised; his word and the fact we can't definitively prove it - which would be fairly impossible without a first person account. From what we know Cruncher had Idra's stream open for the duration of the match, suspect enough, he also reacted suspiciously to Idra's play. I mean the two COUPLED should be enough. I am going to cover myself here though, some suggest that the build Cruncher did is common to him and he would do everything like that normally - if that is the case then it's fair to say the evidence isn't strong enough. However, from what was observed and the fact we know he was connected to the stream, that's about as strong evidence as we can have without directly watching him do it in first person.
Either way, Cruncher knew what he was doing, getting Idra angry. How Idra then dealt with it was completely unacceptable and the ban that came out of it was without a doubt the right decision. But it does feel like Cruncher "won" in this whole situation, he baited Idra until this kind of reaction happened. Whether the blame for that lies on Idra's side or not is another debate, but to me it feels slightly underhand from Crunchers side. Again, i'm definitely not saying Idra is at all innocent in all of this, but I feel painting Cruncher as innocent is also wrong.
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On May 08 2011 08:29 Enervate wrote:
Rofl. Are Idra fanboys not realizing that all Idra had to do was say sorry, and lie about how he felt bad for his actions? Oh, but I guess he has too much self-respect to show such empathy.
Also, lol at people who make accounts on TL to post that they are now going to some other website.
Why should he disrespect himself by lying?
I would not think much of a cheater myself. Why should Greg pretend?
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How many PMs did he get exactly? I wonder.
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I agree with this ban. I read all the other bans Idra received as it was posted on Reddit. It just seems like Idra thinks he owns the place. I agree that occasional rage BM is funny but Idra goes too far to actually be hurtful to others. These actions shouldn't be encouraged at all and it is really sad to see how selfish Idra is in this world.
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On May 08 2011 08:30 Sprungjeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 08:18 Qzy wrote:
TL has some balls to ban him 90 days.
What if EG + NASL turns against TL? TL just threw the first stone, bad bad idea. Never bite the hand, which feeds you. NASL would not turn on TL, EG would not turn on TL. TL is the biggest SC site outside of China (according to Tastosis, even if this isn't true its pretty fucking big) I would wager to say that a pretty large sum of people watch NASL only because TL has information on it. As for EG, I don't believe any gaming team has or would ever fight over a ban, especially such a large part of foundation in SC2 e-sports. Sir TL is the hand that feeds, you're a fool if you think TL is getting more members than they get fans/viewers
I would be pretty amazed if there was a SC site bigger than TL in china
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Why is this even a discussion with so many idiots registering to make pointless comments. 'Hey don't enforce your rules cause of ESPORTS!!!'. Ban him and all of these people because they are clearly not contributing anything worthwhile. It's just filling the entire site with shit, encouraging imbalance arguments and citing him as a reason it's ok to act like an asshole.
I can't believe people still bring up 'but he tells it like it is'. Go on fucking USwest and it's full of 13yo's telling it like it is. He's not special for acting like a child, it's frankly embarrassing that people actually look up to him for some reason. Everyone was BM to each other back on old Bnet.
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On May 08 2011 08:12 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
It's standard procedure to leave the stream open when sniping its player. When the game is over, simply remove mute and listen to the commentary. If the stream is closed, the initial advertisement is very likely to destroy the chance to hear the full commentary.
If you're doubly quick you can leap into their chat room and talk shit. I've seen it.
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On May 08 2011 08:30 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 08:27 coddan wrote:
Maybe that EG has nothing to do with NASL and NASL has no reason to do anything to Team Liquid? Jesus, some people. Agreed. And I'm sure if by some horrendous amount of circumstances NASL boycotted TL, TL will survive. TL was here long before NASL was even a glimmer of a thought and TL will be here long after NASL is dead and gone, same with EG. If anything it's the other way around, EG & NASL shouldn't be fucking with TL lol.
i would go so far to say that if it wasnt for TL.net half of the ppl regulary watching streams/gsl/big tourneys wouldnt know what NASL is
i know i only tune in if i see it live on TL.net, and dont visit NASL site at all. i kinda have a feeling im not alone in that
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On May 08 2011 08:30 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 08:29 Enervate wrote:
Rofl. Are Idra fanboys not realizing that all Idra had to do was say sorry, and lie about how he felt bad for his actions? Oh, but I guess he has too much self-respect to show such empathy.
Also, lol at people who make accounts on TL to post that they are now going to some other website. umm, he never even needed to say he was sorry. all he needed to do was NOT TELL HIS FANS TO SPAM CHILL
exactly or apologize to chill after having done so, admitting it was a dumb move by him
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On May 08 2011 08:32 Invoker wrote:
How many PMs did he get exactly? I wonder.
Apparently 178 PMs over 20 hours.
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On May 08 2011 08:04 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 08:01 Supamang wrote:On May 08 2011 07:54 wei2coolman wrote:
I wouldn't say Idra was "encouraged" so much as said "if you want to know why I'm banned, PM Chill"
Encourage would be like "Yo, all spam Chill w/ PM's until he unbans me."
Whatever, I hope Idra just mans up and apologizes next time. Because the people missing out are the community members. Complete bullshit. Heres the actual quote: "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you"Dont try to spin that shit. Thats definitely "encouraging" his little band of sycophants to harass Chill. nowhere in there does he say to spam/harrass. You are the one spinning it into something it doesnt say because you want it to? Can a post get more ironic than this?
I don't understand how naive you can be if you think Idra saying "pm Chill if you have a problem with this" is not inciting spam/harass. Either naive or convincing oneself that this is the case because you want some form of argument.
I don't see anything wrong with the decision made. It's fair.
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i'm a fan of the guy's play and have discussed the guy positively in the past against streams of hate, BUT his stream should have been removed for the duration as well.
there has to be a line drawn somewhere, this whole sc thing has gone far beyond the point of a few fans discussing their favorite game and players on a forum, it's a growing business that will only get bigger
this kind of disrespect shown by such an influential top player to the backbone website of the community where it all started from should be penalized decisively, in the manner of players in other sports getting suspensions and hefty fines, precisely because it's not the first time he's done it.
suspension - 90 days ban - check
where's the fine - removal of stream ?
also, temp ban and off stream + ban any advertisments of him by his team on TL on the next offense please, this isn't the school courtyard anymore mr. greg.
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On May 08 2011 08:13 Mayor wrote:
Sigh, it's time for IdrA to grow up.
Maybe its time for eSports to grow up?
One competitor insulting another that they don't like after they intentionally did something to upset them?
I'm sorry I don't see any real sport having a problem with competitors not liking each other to the point of insulting one another. I believe its called gamesmanship.
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100% supportive of admin's decision. In fact, I don't even see the need to even post this thread. Just ban him.
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On May 08 2011 08:29 Klogon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 08:14 Wiseman wrote:On May 08 2011 07:59 Klogon wrote:On May 08 2011 07:54 smileyface22 wrote:
For a website whose stated goal is to foster the growth of e-sports, this decision is strange. Banning idra for 90 days only hurts the community infinitely more than it hurts Idra. He has an immense power to draw traffic and viewers and for all the complaints people parrot about his behavior, he's done more to expand the sc2 scene than any other player. I have friends who stopped playing in beta that still tune in to NASL just to see his games. While his 2-day ban could be justified, this just seems like retribution. And considering the history between the two, a lot of people simply think Chill was looking for an excuse to provoke Idra.
Whatever higher standard of forum behavior TL professes to adhere to is off-set by this bizarre aversion toward freedom of speech here. If you disagree with mods, you get banned. Just an extremely odd way to alienate a large portion of your viewers. Oh well, i guess it's a model you can support while there still isn't any competition.... If you think about it, is it "good for ESPORTS" for Idra to consistently act immature and set a bad example in the biggest community site just for pride and laughs? Tear down and entire community just so one man can stand above the ashes? No. And if he cared, he would not want it either. In situations like this, all sides do share responsibility for the outcomes, but I think it is fair to say that Idra controls the vast majority of that responsibility for what happens to him. Who is really setting the bad example here? I'm sorry but Idra's post where he calls Cruncher a waste of life isn't some rant encouraging someone to grab a 9mm and his address and pay him a visit. It was the acknowledgement of one who feels superior that he was beaten by a cheater, and that he was a waste of life. Now, being an adult, I read this as not being worth my time. Would it have been better if instead of waste of life he'd said not worth my time? Would that have deserved a two day ban? How does Chill banning a professional player, for taking it to what is probably the most OPEN competitive website on the thread about his own stream (which to me would indicate it should be talking about the events of his stream, of which this clearly was one) set a good example if anyone has a dispute with any other player? I'm sorry but real, professional sports have competitors that do not like each other, don't care for each other, and only want to beat each other, no matter what it takes. Larry Bird and Michael Jordan weren't good friends. Larry Bird punted a basketball of MJ's when it rolled over near him during a practice shoot around. This entire issue was blown out of hand by the initial 2-day ban, which was undeserved. Calling someone a waste of life, on the INTERNET, is such a piddling insult not even a 14 year old would be insulted by it. Furthermore, I did not know of any bad history between Chill and Idra, but that seems to make even more sense because again, a 2 day ban for calling someone a waste of life after they intentionally trolled you was a little over the top. Hell, give them a thread where only those two immature pricks (Idra and Cruncher) can sit and verbally snipe at each other all day and just reap in the popularity. This current 90 day ban is deserved. Harassment of any official is out of hand, but the initial events that set this all in motion are what should be a concern to all. If we want to bring this thing called eSports into the REAL ADULT WORLD, we are going to have to deal with manners in a REAL and ADULT manner. Please stop with your comparisons with real sports and then bring in old superstars. In today's sports world, doing what Idra did to Chill would be like a player naming a specific ref and telling fans on his twitter to harass him (by email/phone/whatever). Do you honestly think that would go unpunished? When a figher in the UFC insults Dana White, the fighter's contract gets terminated. When Wayne Rooney said " who the fuck are you" to a camera man directly into the camera a month ago, he got a 2-match ban. If anything, the fact that this is the internet filled with immature and anonymous people is what allows shit like this to happen and have people defend the offenders so passionately. In the real world of professional sports where the organization wants a good image (The NFL is absolutely anal about good image), there is actually much less tolerance.
You sir, are amazingly well spoken and 100% right. The NFL refused to allow Rush limbaugh to part own the St. Louis Rams because of his outspoken nature and inflammatory speech towards "the left". They literally said no to millions to keep his mouth out of their organization. I think that a 90 day time out is not only legit but should be longer considering how much of a troll he has been in the past. However, that's not up to me the low post noob.
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On May 08 2011 08:34 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 08:04 MaestroSC wrote:On May 08 2011 08:01 Supamang wrote:On May 08 2011 07:54 wei2coolman wrote:
I wouldn't say Idra was "encouraged" so much as said "if you want to know why I'm banned, PM Chill"
Encourage would be like "Yo, all spam Chill w/ PM's until he unbans me."
Whatever, I hope Idra just mans up and apologizes next time. Because the people missing out are the community members. Complete bullshit. Heres the actual quote: "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you"Dont try to spin that shit. Thats definitely "encouraging" his little band of sycophants to harass Chill. nowhere in there does he say to spam/harrass. You are the one spinning it into something it doesnt say because you want it to? Can a post get more ironic than this? I don't understand how naive you can be if you think Idra saying "pm Chill if you have a problem with this" is not inciting spam/harass. Either naive or convincing oneself that this is the case because you want some form of argument. I don't see anything wrong with the decision made. It's fair.
we're only assuming that he means to spam/harass. just like we're assuming cruncher cheated (or did not).
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I'm not sure whether IdrA intended his request to PM Chill to be a form of harrassment or gentle protest and support.
That being said, I think the TL staff did a reasonable thing given that they believed IdrA was encouraging harrassment. It doesn't impair his ability to stream or generate fans, it simply takes away his ability to post on the forums and be rude.
However, I am a huge IdrA fan, so from my point of view this is quite a shame.
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This is great! I'm going to throw a party tonight to celebrate the banning, and at midnight we will all burn an effigy of idra.
In related news, this is going to be like miracle-grow for the SotG viewership this week. But seriously, I wish it was a perma-ban, but I'll take what I can get. He's bad for the credibility of the sport and should be exiled imo.
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On May 08 2011 08:32 qwertyindeed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 08:30 travis wrote:On May 08 2011 08:29 Enervate wrote:
Rofl. Are Idra fanboys not realizing that all Idra had to do was say sorry, and lie about how he felt bad for his actions? Oh, but I guess he has too much self-respect to show such empathy.
Also, lol at people who make accounts on TL to post that they are now going to some other website. umm, he never even needed to say he was sorry. all he needed to do was NOT TELL HIS FANS TO SPAM CHILL exactly or apologize to chill after having done so, admitting it was a dumb move by him
Well, as Elton John once said... "Sorry seems to be the hardest word".
It's suprising how much that little word could have changed everything, but IdrA insists on his behaviour and now we are caught in the Flamewar :/
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EPT
