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Hello, all!
It's become quite apparent that many of you are not reading the first post carefully.
Failure to do so in the future will be met with swift punishment. And as always, remember to be civil.
Thanks,
Empyrean. Time stamp: 03:59 KST. |
On May 08 2011 07:50 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:49 Denzil wrote:On May 08 2011 07:47 zeru wrote:On May 08 2011 07:43 Omoplata wrote:On May 08 2011 07:38 PanN wrote:On May 08 2011 07:32 Monolithic- wrote:On May 08 2011 07:27 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:25 Monolithic- wrote:On May 08 2011 07:22 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:
[quote]
Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it.
Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it.
IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it. Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream? You're just being stubborn. It was quite obvious that cruncher knew what idra was doing and he prepared perfectly for it. I don't see how cruncher being connected to idra's stream isn't proof enough. If he wasn't cheating and cared to avoid any accusations he would have closed the stream as soon as he was matched with idra. How is that obvious? I've played and seen hundreds of games where someone seems completely prepared, just because of luck or intuition. Just because someone looks ready doesn't mean they were cheating. I see nothing wrong with using the stream to join at the same time as Idra, then minimizing it. What's the difference between having it open and minimized? The difference is that it's pretty common for people to have dual monitors and CrunCher is OBVIOUSLY not going to admit to cheating. It's totally expected for him to say he had it minimized and muted because it was already proven that he was connected to the stream so it's not like he could deny that part. He lied about what cannot be proven/disproven. Him and IdrA have a grudge and IdrA constantly beats and BMs CrunCher. There's your motive. IdrA had every right to be angry about the situation, and banning him for something like this is totally unreasonable and biased towards CrunCher. Nope. You're wrong. 1.) Yes, cruncher is obviously going to admit to not cheating, but that does not mean he did cheat. That's stupid. 2.) There was nothing to "prove" when it comes to whether or not he was connected to the stream, he admitted he was, it's not like he tried to hide it like you're implying. 3.) Prove that "he lied" before you call him a liar, that's a pretty big claim. 4.) Motive for what? Stream cheating? His motive for connecting to the stream in the first place is the most obvious and logical assumption, he wanted to queue the same time as idrA. 5.) What situation did idrA have to be angry about? He started this whole situation. He assumed Cruncher cheated without evidence, then made an extremely bad manner comment on the forums about him because of said assumption. 6.) Regarding your mindblowingly stupid assumption that TL is biased towards Cruncher, um, that is beyond false. You can find in this vary thread pictures of idrA's ban history, if they have shown any bias at all, it's FOR idra, NOT AGAINST. Regarding point 5, IdrA had plenty of reason to suspect that Cruncher stream cheated, and was justified in making the accusation. If you see someone standing over a dead body, holding a gun, and bullet wounds in the corpse, you have every right to think they had something to do with the body ending up in that condition. To simply say, "Well, he says he didn't do it, and I didn't see it, so I guess I'm out of line for making the accusation." is stupid. Cruncher had the stream open. Cruncher blind countered IdrA's build. Cruncher isn't half the player IdrA is. Pretty reasonable to suspect he used the stream to his advantage. Cruncher built zealots when idra was coming with roaches. That is not a counter. building zealots is to pressure against fast 3rd with 4 ling defense, not to defend against roaches. Ah, so by that 1 bit of knowledge that makes everything else null and void? Please, do state the exact moves cruncher made that show that he was cheating.
No scouting, perfect counter.
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I wouldn't say Idra was "encouraged" so much as said "if you want to know why I'm banned, PM Chill"
Encourage would be like "Yo, all spam Chill w/ PM's until he unbans me."
Whatever, I hope Idra just mans up and apologizes next time. Because the people missing out are the community members.
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You're biased because you actively guarded Cruncher despite his admitted stream-cheating, then banned IdrA for calling him out on it.
He admitted being on the stream but denied watching or listening to it during the game. I myself have had a stream open while waiting to play someone in bw and then asking them for the game once they finish the one they're in to avoid disturbing them. It's believable.
but not likely.
on the subject, after this (http://i.imgur.com/cULBN.jpg) there should be no doubt in anyone's sane mind, that ban is deserved. tbh im kinda dissapointed that such a high level player would shit where he eats, if you know what i mean.
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So teamliquid bans people for something that didn't even happen on the forums?
Shouldn't they ban huk then? Huk bmed idra at mlg on shattered temple, making him upset DURING a set. Something like that is NOT acceptable.
But then again, huk is on teamliquid, so he has super priviliges.
Nazgul also bmed idra at mlg dallas. + Show Spoiler + during a set is not acceptable either.
But then again, nazgul is on teamliquid, so he has super priviliges.
NICE MODERATION
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 08 2011 07:52 Lunchador wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:45 Frozenserpent wrote:
You're saying that there is no evidence of ghosting. But there simply is, which you've admitted yourself.
The case for Cruncher cheating is:
Cruncher has dual monitors (this I don't personally know, but from the sounds of it is already known).
Cruncher has the stream open for the duration of the game.
Cruncher had suspicious behavior in-game.
The defense for Cruncher is:
he says that he had the stream muted and minimized.
Is this not quite strong evidence? If law really worked this way, this world would be so !@#$ed over it wouldn't even be funny. But I'll make this short and simple: Can you prove Cruncher's defense is a lie? No? You can't? Then you can't declare him guilty.
If law didn't work like this, our jails would be empty.
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I wonder if EG ever reprimands idra for his behaviour like Korean teams would. As good of a player as he is, just watching the IM house tour/interviews makes it apparent that Greg Fields is not welcomed in many circles because of his attitude. Yet as much as iNcontroL who gets a lot of air time, downplays how idra acts, it appears that EG as a whole doesn't mind the publicity he brings?
All publicity is good publicity?
Although on the other hand, it's likely that "foreign" based teams feel less inclined to control/limit the personal actions of their players. It just seems weird that EG wouldn't have him layoff at some point.
*edited typo
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Seems fair. Honestly, if idra was almost anyone else he would be permabanned by now.
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On May 08 2011 07:54 DizzyDrone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:50 Monolithic- wrote:
I really hope you are never given jury duty or a murderer or rapist might very well walk.
I really hope you are never given jury duty or an innocent person might very well end up on death row.
Perhaps, but it's not very often that the person is innocent when the evidence overwhelmingly points towards a guilty verdict.
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On May 08 2011 07:51 Klogon wrote:First of all, if Cruncher is proven to have cheated, we will take action. We have no problem taking action against even the most high profile of players (ex. Dimaga and TSL2/3) but try to do so with careful deliberation. Please do not think our actions here are simply us spitefully swinging a banhammer. You'd be surprised by the pages of discussions we have of actions that involve high-profile community members. Also, regarding the "harassing". Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:05 Karthane wrote:
I don't necessarily think he was encouraging people to "harrass" them. He just said if you have a problem with it message Chill. Whatever though, in the end i think it's better to have IdrA here, streaming on TL. Brings more people here. Hell, he even got 20k to watch Sotg. Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:20 Mysticvoid wrote:
I feel the 2 day ban was justified. Calling someone a waste a life is pretty low and should be punished. All fine and dandy, what I am not ok with is punishing someone for something they said outside of the forums. Idra didn't tell anyone to harass Chill, Idra said and I quote "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you." Yes he did tell his fans to PM Chill, did he tell them to insult him or harass him? No he didnt and I'm sorry but if mods can't handle getting PMs from people maybe they should reconsider being mods.
Idra on his twitter tried to imply that by being banned, he could no longer stream. That was false. And if we assume he knew it was also false (he probably did), we can then assume that he was miliciously misleading his thousands of twitter followers into a rage against Chill. Thus I think it is fair to say Idra did encourage his fans to go harass Chill.
But if you can assume IdrA was encouraging his fans to harass chill on a hunch, why can't we assume CrunCher was stream cheating? Answer: we can't unless told by the person.
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On May 08 2011 07:46 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
I think people need to realize just how little this matters. IdrA posts seldom, even when unbanned. When he does post, while there are some funny or informative ones, most of them are usually nothing special.
He's not banned from tournaments. He's not stopping streaming as some sign of protest. TL, while important to the starcraft community, being banned from posting on the forums does not suddenly mean he's a black sheep or incapable of doing other things. I think that also point to the fact that people think he will, "learn a lesson", are incorrect. There's nothing to learn from IdrA's perspective.
I just wanted to thank you for saying this - I've been trying to muster the articulation to say something similar but the amount of fanrage/antifangasm has been frustrating me to a high degree.
As much as e-sports needs professionals and adults, I think it would also do much better with a following that wasn't so intent on experiencing competition vicariously.
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On May 08 2011 07:55 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:54 Denzil wrote:On May 08 2011 07:50 zeru wrote:On May 08 2011 07:49 Denzil wrote:On May 08 2011 07:47 zeru wrote:On May 08 2011 07:43 Omoplata wrote:On May 08 2011 07:38 PanN wrote:On May 08 2011 07:32 Monolithic- wrote:On May 08 2011 07:27 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:25 Monolithic- wrote:
[quote]
You're just being stubborn. It was quite obvious that cruncher knew what idra was doing and he prepared perfectly for it. I don't see how cruncher being connected to idra's stream isn't proof enough. If he wasn't cheating and cared to avoid any accusations he would have closed the stream as soon as he was matched with idra. How is that obvious? I've played and seen hundreds of games where someone seems completely prepared, just because of luck or intuition. Just because someone looks ready doesn't mean they were cheating. I see nothing wrong with using the stream to join at the same time as Idra, then minimizing it. What's the difference between having it open and minimized? The difference is that it's pretty common for people to have dual monitors and CrunCher is OBVIOUSLY not going to admit to cheating. It's totally expected for him to say he had it minimized and muted because it was already proven that he was connected to the stream so it's not like he could deny that part. He lied about what cannot be proven/disproven. Him and IdrA have a grudge and IdrA constantly beats and BMs CrunCher. There's your motive. IdrA had every right to be angry about the situation, and banning him for something like this is totally unreasonable and biased towards CrunCher. Nope. You're wrong. 1.) Yes, cruncher is obviously going to admit to not cheating, but that does not mean he did cheat. That's stupid. 2.) There was nothing to "prove" when it comes to whether or not he was connected to the stream, he admitted he was, it's not like he tried to hide it like you're implying. 3.) Prove that "he lied" before you call him a liar, that's a pretty big claim. 4.) Motive for what? Stream cheating? His motive for connecting to the stream in the first place is the most obvious and logical assumption, he wanted to queue the same time as idrA. 5.) What situation did idrA have to be angry about? He started this whole situation. He assumed Cruncher cheated without evidence, then made an extremely bad manner comment on the forums about him because of said assumption. 6.) Regarding your mindblowingly stupid assumption that TL is biased towards Cruncher, um, that is beyond false. You can find in this vary thread pictures of idrA's ban history, if they have shown any bias at all, it's FOR idra, NOT AGAINST. Regarding point 5, IdrA had plenty of reason to suspect that Cruncher stream cheated, and was justified in making the accusation. If you see someone standing over a dead body, holding a gun, and bullet wounds in the corpse, you have every right to think they had something to do with the body ending up in that condition. To simply say, "Well, he says he didn't do it, and I didn't see it, so I guess I'm out of line for making the accusation." is stupid. Cruncher had the stream open. Cruncher blind countered IdrA's build. Cruncher isn't half the player IdrA is. Pretty reasonable to suspect he used the stream to his advantage. Cruncher built zealots when idra was coming with roaches. That is not a counter. building zealots is to pressure against fast 3rd with 4 ling defense, not to defend against roaches. Ah, so by that 1 bit of knowledge that makes everything else null and void? Please, do state the exact moves cruncher made that show that he was cheating. Seeing as he and yourself seem to be so confident he wasn't ask him to release the replay. Everyone here seems to refuse to do it. So you didn't even watch the game yet imply he cheated? Thats cool. If you had sawn the game any reasonably experienced player would realize that he wasn't blind countering at all.
Where did I suggest I hadn't watched the game, get the damn replay instead of hiding behind a defense of frail words and analyze it. If Cruncher isn't guilty he will release it in a flash.
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On May 08 2011 07:51 Klogon wrote:
Idra on his twitter tried to imply that by being banned, he could no longer stream. That was false. And if we assume he knew it was also false (he probably did), we can then assume that he was miliciously misleading his thousands of twitter followers into a rage against Chill. Thus I think it is fair to say Idra did encourage his fans to go harass Chill.
That seems like alot of assuming :p
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I totally agree with this ban. I like IdrA for his play, but not for his behavior. I really hope he'll grow up at some point in the future instead of always picking fights in a childish way.
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On May 08 2011 07:45 Frozenserpent wrote:
Suppose Cruncher was taking a test and was caught with a book open with the answers. "Oh, I was just studying for the test beforehand. I wasn't looking at the book." Would you declare that there is no evidence of cheating taking place?.
You cant compare that to dual screens. In that example he would be caught with a book open with the answers however nobody can say what Cruncher had open in his other monitor. He might have had the stream open or he might have not had it open. That is the part that nobody can say for sure and therefore there isnt any evidence that he had the stream open.
Idra can suspect all he wants but if he doesnt have concrete proof then he should not insult others because of it. He should then just add the delay or something so other people cant stream-cheat on him.
On May 08 2011 07:46 damod wrote:
there is also zero proof cruncher was not watching idras stream while playing, but the differense between idras side and cruncher side is that idra has evidence, testifiers, and cruncher only has his words, not to mention that cruncher also have a potential motive to do it..
what evidence idra has that cruncher had his stream open on his monitor? He only could guess that because of what happened in game. But what happened in game might have happened either way whether cruncher cheated or not. Maybe it was just his strategy anyway.
How hard can it be to use some common sense.
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With his bad rapsheet he deserves a permaban, pro or not. Being good doesn't give you the right to talk shit to whomever you want. Especially when you weigh all of 115 pounds.
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On May 08 2011 07:54 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:50 zeru wrote:On May 08 2011 07:49 Denzil wrote:On May 08 2011 07:47 zeru wrote:On May 08 2011 07:43 Omoplata wrote:On May 08 2011 07:38 PanN wrote:On May 08 2011 07:32 Monolithic- wrote:On May 08 2011 07:27 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:25 Monolithic- wrote:On May 08 2011 07:22 Chill wrote:
[quote]
Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream? You're just being stubborn. It was quite obvious that cruncher knew what idra was doing and he prepared perfectly for it. I don't see how cruncher being connected to idra's stream isn't proof enough. If he wasn't cheating and cared to avoid any accusations he would have closed the stream as soon as he was matched with idra. How is that obvious? I've played and seen hundreds of games where someone seems completely prepared, just because of luck or intuition. Just because someone looks ready doesn't mean they were cheating. I see nothing wrong with using the stream to join at the same time as Idra, then minimizing it. What's the difference between having it open and minimized? The difference is that it's pretty common for people to have dual monitors and CrunCher is OBVIOUSLY not going to admit to cheating. It's totally expected for him to say he had it minimized and muted because it was already proven that he was connected to the stream so it's not like he could deny that part. He lied about what cannot be proven/disproven. Him and IdrA have a grudge and IdrA constantly beats and BMs CrunCher. There's your motive. IdrA had every right to be angry about the situation, and banning him for something like this is totally unreasonable and biased towards CrunCher. Nope. You're wrong. 1.) Yes, cruncher is obviously going to admit to not cheating, but that does not mean he did cheat. That's stupid. 2.) There was nothing to "prove" when it comes to whether or not he was connected to the stream, he admitted he was, it's not like he tried to hide it like you're implying. 3.) Prove that "he lied" before you call him a liar, that's a pretty big claim. 4.) Motive for what? Stream cheating? His motive for connecting to the stream in the first place is the most obvious and logical assumption, he wanted to queue the same time as idrA. 5.) What situation did idrA have to be angry about? He started this whole situation. He assumed Cruncher cheated without evidence, then made an extremely bad manner comment on the forums about him because of said assumption. 6.) Regarding your mindblowingly stupid assumption that TL is biased towards Cruncher, um, that is beyond false. You can find in this vary thread pictures of idrA's ban history, if they have shown any bias at all, it's FOR idra, NOT AGAINST. Regarding point 5, IdrA had plenty of reason to suspect that Cruncher stream cheated, and was justified in making the accusation. If you see someone standing over a dead body, holding a gun, and bullet wounds in the corpse, you have every right to think they had something to do with the body ending up in that condition. To simply say, "Well, he says he didn't do it, and I didn't see it, so I guess I'm out of line for making the accusation." is stupid. Cruncher had the stream open. Cruncher blind countered IdrA's build. Cruncher isn't half the player IdrA is. Pretty reasonable to suspect he used the stream to his advantage. Cruncher built zealots when idra was coming with roaches. That is not a counter. building zealots is to pressure against fast 3rd with 4 ling defense, not to defend against roaches. Ah, so by that 1 bit of knowledge that makes everything else null and void? Please, do state the exact moves cruncher made that show that he was cheating. Seeing as he and yourself seem to be so confident he wasn't ask him to release the replay. Everyone here seems to refuse to do it.
He did... do your homework and find it yourself.
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Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them.
So you guys still get ad revenue for listing his stream.
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EPT
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