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Hello, all!
It's become quite apparent that many of you are not reading the first post carefully.
Failure to do so in the future will be met with swift punishment. And as always, remember to be civil.
Thanks,
Empyrean. Time stamp: 03:59 KST. |
It's about time, good work TL Admins, someone has to put their foot down.
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On May 08 2011 07:50 Monolithic- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:46 PanN wrote:On May 08 2011 07:42 Monolithic- wrote:On May 08 2011 07:38 PanN wrote:On May 08 2011 07:32 Monolithic- wrote:On May 08 2011 07:27 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:25 Monolithic- wrote:On May 08 2011 07:22 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:On May 08 2011 07:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
[quote]
You haven't been reading. Ghosting is not fine. There is no reason to assume Cruncher was ghosting, and even less proof of it.
Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it. Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it. IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it. Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream? You're just being stubborn. It was quite obvious that cruncher knew what idra was doing and he prepared perfectly for it. I don't see how cruncher being connected to idra's stream isn't proof enough. If he wasn't cheating and cared to avoid any accusations he would have closed the stream as soon as he was matched with idra. How is that obvious? I've played and seen hundreds of games where someone seems completely prepared, just because of luck or intuition. Just because someone looks ready doesn't mean they were cheating. I see nothing wrong with using the stream to join at the same time as Idra, then minimizing it. What's the difference between having it open and minimized? The difference is that it's pretty common for people to have dual monitors and CrunCher is OBVIOUSLY not going to admit to cheating. It's totally expected for him to say he had it minimized and muted because it was already proven that he was connected to the stream so it's not like he could deny that part. He lied about what cannot be proven/disproven. Him and IdrA have a grudge and IdrA constantly beats and BMs CrunCher. There's your motive. IdrA had every right to be angry about the situation, and banning him for something like this is totally unreasonable and biased towards CrunCher. Nope. You're wrong. 1.) Yes, cruncher is obviously going to admit to not cheating, but that does not mean he did cheat. That's stupid. 2.) There was nothing to "prove" when it comes to whether or not he was connected to the stream, he admitted he was, it's not like he tried to hide it like you're implying. 3.) Prove that "he lied" before you call him a liar, that's a pretty big claim. 4.) Motive for what? Stream cheating? His motive for connecting to the stream in the first place is the most obvious and logical assumption, he wanted to queue the same time as idrA. 5.) What situation did idrA have to be angry about? He started this whole situation. He assumed Cruncher cheated without evidence, then made an extremely bad manner comment on the forums about him because of said assumption. 6.) Regarding your mindblowingly stupid assumption that TL is biased towards Cruncher, um, that is beyond false. You can find in this vary thread pictures of idrA's ban history, if they have shown any bias at all, it's FOR idra, NOT AGAINST. Nope. You're wrong. If you look at the character of the accused individual it's definitely something he would do. It's all about saving face after his pompous interview. This will go nowhere because there is no way to prove anything even though it's pretty obvious that CrunCher was cheating. The point is IdrA should not receive a ban for being mad about CrunCher being connected to his stream while they are playing. Yeah, well guess what? Your point is wrong. idrA didn't "receive a ban for being mad about cruncher being connected to his stream while they are playing.". idrA received a ban for making an extremely rude remark about a fellow competitor. Also, stop spreading false information, that's really wrong of you. Stop saying he cheated when you admit in the same sentence its unprovable. I really hope you are never given jury duty or a murderer or rapist might very well walk.
If thats how you want to end our conversation, fine.
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On May 08 2011 07:48 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:45 Frozenserpent wrote:On May 08 2011 07:24 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:22 Karthane wrote:On May 08 2011 07:21 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:19 Karthane wrote:On May 08 2011 07:18 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:15 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:13 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:11 pStar wrote:
[quote]
This is honestly ridiculous.
How is that ok in anyway? How is what? There's literally zero proof Cruncher was watching Idra's stream while playing. The only proof is that he had the stream open, which he's admitted to. But surely that makes it pretty darn obvious that he was cheating?? Surely it doesn't prove anything. Cruncher has dual monitors..i mean you are basically saying "the stream was open right there in front of him but we can't prove his eyes were pointed in that direction" I'm saying we don't act on accusations without evidence. Well i'm giving you evidence short of the direction his eyes were facing He said the stream was muted and minimized. You're saying that there is no evidence of ghosting. But there simply is, which you've admitted yourself. The case for Cruncher cheating is: Cruncher has dual monitors (this I don't personally know, but from the sounds of it is already known). Cruncher has the stream open for the duration of the game. Cruncher had suspicious behavior in-game. The defense for Cruncher is: he says that he had the stream muted and minimized. Is this not quite strong evidence? Suppose Cruncher was caught having maphack on his computer. You ask him about it, and he says, "oh, i just have maphack because I only use it for custom games with friends. I don't use it for ladder." Would you declare that there is no evidence against him then? Suppose Cruncher was taking a test and was caught with a book open with the answers. "Oh, I was just studying for the test beforehand. I wasn't looking at the book." Would you declare that there is no evidence of cheating taking place? Evidently there is some evidence. As for cheating cases go, it's quite a bit of evidence. Maybe you want to trust Cruncher on his word. That's fine. But don't act like there isn't a good reason to think that he ghosted. After all, the evidence for Cruncher ghosting is enough evidence to cause a student to be declared a cheater on a test. And I can understand why mods would want to ban Idra for 90 days after his twitter, but take another real-life scenario that we can relate to. Suppose Idra got arrested by a police officer, and he felt it was unjust. He tweets about the incident and asks people to contact the police officer in question if they feel strongly about it. Would that be cause for Idra to be arrested for a longer period of time? I don't think so. It's fine to be upset about an incident and to urge people to contact a figure of authority. In the end, TL mods can do whatever the hell they like. There isn't a rigorous code they must abide by. They don't have to be consistent in judgments. Personally even though I am a huge Idra fan I can't really fault TL too much for how they handled it. But you have to admit that there is reason to see why some Idra fans think it's unjust. If similar things were to happen in real life (outside of TL), Cruncher would be the one in legitimate trouble and Idra wouldn't be, with the same kind of evidence. What you're talking about is circumstantial evidence. Nothing of what you claim is evidence he cheated proves he did. What you're saying proves he could, but not that he did.
Well Cruncher's cheerleading squad isn't interesting in tracking down more evidence, so they can just hide behind "nah he probably didn't" indefinitely.
Anyway at least this thread keeps Cruncher relevant. 
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MURICA15980 Posts
First of all, if Cruncher is proven to have cheated, we will take action. We have no problem taking action against even the most high profile of players (ex. Dimaga and TSL2/3) but try to do so with careful deliberation. Please do not think our actions here are simply us spitefully swinging a banhammer. You'd be surprised by the pages of discussions we have of actions that involve high-profile community members, Idra included.
Also, regarding the "harassing".
On May 08 2011 07:05 Karthane wrote:
I don't necessarily think he was encouraging people to "harrass" them. He just said if you have a problem with it message Chill. Whatever though, in the end i think it's better to have IdrA here, streaming on TL. Brings more people here. Hell, he even got 20k to watch Sotg.
On May 08 2011 07:20 Mysticvoid wrote:
I feel the 2 day ban was justified. Calling someone a waste a life is pretty low and should be punished. All fine and dandy, what I am not ok with is punishing someone for something they said outside of the forums. Idra didn't tell anyone to harass Chill, Idra said and I quote "wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you." Yes he did tell his fans to PM Chill, did he tell them to insult him or harass him? No he didnt and I'm sorry but if mods can't handle getting PMs from people maybe they should reconsider being mods.
Idra on his twitter tried to imply that by being banned, he could no longer stream. That was false. And if we assume he knew it was also false (he probably did), we can then assume that he was maliciously misleading his thousands of twitter followers into a rage against Chill. Thus I think it is fair to say Idra did encourage his fans to go harass Chill.
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243 Posts
On May 08 2011 07:48 dre2k wrote:
You can call idra scum without getting banned lol. TL is so biased. HuK BM´ing idra is all good I guess, ah well Nazgul has to protect his investment in a suck ass team I guess, except Ret, cause he´s a boss.
The number of mods versus the number of normal users posting doesn't allow them to pass judgement on every post within 5 minutes of its submission. Calm down.
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I suppose a 2 day ban for insulting Cruncher for sniping and/or cheating might be warranted. Not sure I agree with 90 days for pointing out to his fans who banned him and why. But then again, it only matters what the mods think. ^^
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On May 08 2011 07:45 Frozenserpent wrote:
You're saying that there is no evidence of ghosting. But there simply is, which you've admitted yourself.
The case for Cruncher cheating is:
Cruncher has dual monitors (this I don't personally know, but from the sounds of it is already known).
Cruncher has the stream open for the duration of the game.
Cruncher had suspicious behavior in-game.
The defense for Cruncher is:
he says that he had the stream muted and minimized.
Is this not quite strong evidence?
If law really worked this way, this world would be so !@#$ed over it wouldn't even be funny.
But I'll make this short and simple:
Can you prove Cruncher's defense is a lie? No? You can't?
Then you can't declare him guilty.
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This ban has NOTHING to do with Cruncher's actions. If you have a problem with what Cruncher did that is fine, but that is not an excuse for the smorgasbord of BM IdrA has imposed on this forum, and got away with purely because of who he is.
IdrA...the Charlie Sheen of SC2
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On May 08 2011 07:50 Monolithic- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:46 PanN wrote:On May 08 2011 07:42 Monolithic- wrote:On May 08 2011 07:38 PanN wrote:On May 08 2011 07:32 Monolithic- wrote:On May 08 2011 07:27 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:25 Monolithic- wrote:On May 08 2011 07:22 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:On May 08 2011 07:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
[quote]
You haven't been reading. Ghosting is not fine. There is no reason to assume Cruncher was ghosting, and even less proof of it.
Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it. Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it. IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it. Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream? You're just being stubborn. It was quite obvious that cruncher knew what idra was doing and he prepared perfectly for it. I don't see how cruncher being connected to idra's stream isn't proof enough. If he wasn't cheating and cared to avoid any accusations he would have closed the stream as soon as he was matched with idra. How is that obvious? I've played and seen hundreds of games where someone seems completely prepared, just because of luck or intuition. Just because someone looks ready doesn't mean they were cheating. I see nothing wrong with using the stream to join at the same time as Idra, then minimizing it. What's the difference between having it open and minimized? The difference is that it's pretty common for people to have dual monitors and CrunCher is OBVIOUSLY not going to admit to cheating. It's totally expected for him to say he had it minimized and muted because it was already proven that he was connected to the stream so it's not like he could deny that part. He lied about what cannot be proven/disproven. Him and IdrA have a grudge and IdrA constantly beats and BMs CrunCher. There's your motive. IdrA had every right to be angry about the situation, and banning him for something like this is totally unreasonable and biased towards CrunCher. Nope. You're wrong. 1.) Yes, cruncher is obviously going to admit to not cheating, but that does not mean he did cheat. That's stupid. 2.) There was nothing to "prove" when it comes to whether or not he was connected to the stream, he admitted he was, it's not like he tried to hide it like you're implying. 3.) Prove that "he lied" before you call him a liar, that's a pretty big claim. 4.) Motive for what? Stream cheating? His motive for connecting to the stream in the first place is the most obvious and logical assumption, he wanted to queue the same time as idrA. 5.) What situation did idrA have to be angry about? He started this whole situation. He assumed Cruncher cheated without evidence, then made an extremely bad manner comment on the forums about him because of said assumption. 6.) Regarding your mindblowingly stupid assumption that TL is biased towards Cruncher, um, that is beyond false. You can find in this vary thread pictures of idrA's ban history, if they have shown any bias at all, it's FOR idra, NOT AGAINST. Nope. You're wrong. If you look at the character of the accused individual it's definitely something he would do. It's all about saving face after his pompous interview. This will go nowhere because there is no way to prove anything even though it's pretty obvious that CrunCher was cheating. The point is IdrA should not receive a ban for being mad about CrunCher being connected to his stream while they are playing. Yeah, well guess what? Your point is wrong. idrA didn't "receive a ban for being mad about cruncher being connected to his stream while they are playing.". idrA received a ban for making an extremely rude remark about a fellow competitor. Also, stop spreading false information, that's really wrong of you. Stop saying he cheated when you admit in the same sentence its unprovable. I really hope you are never given jury duty or a murderer or rapist might very well walk.
I hope you are never given jury duty, because you might very well send innocent people to the chair.
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On May 08 2011 07:35 mprs wrote:
Glad he was banned. He contributed nothing to the community and whenever he did post, it was uninformative spewed BS that no one cares for. Which is fine until he tried to rally people against volunteer moderators who spend their time out of their own lives without pay to clean it up.
while he may have done some wrong things, non contributive things is true. to say he did nothing is untrue. im not condoning what idra did, but there is a lot of unreasonable, irrational hate that seems populist in nature -.- Yes, he could insult people a little less, troll a little less, but for person after person to discount him and to trash all over him seems rather silly.
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So many moralfags, i thought people were suppose to be allowed to express their feelings ! ^^
User was warned for this post
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TL is anti idra, that´s pretty clear. Not like he doesnt need TL anyway.
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I stand by TL's actions 100%
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On May 08 2011 07:50 Monolithic- wrote:
I really hope you are never given jury duty or a murderer or rapist might very well walk.
I really hope you are never given jury duty or an innocent person might very well end up on death row.
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On May 08 2011 07:50 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:49 Denzil wrote:On May 08 2011 07:47 zeru wrote:On May 08 2011 07:43 Omoplata wrote:On May 08 2011 07:38 PanN wrote:On May 08 2011 07:32 Monolithic- wrote:On May 08 2011 07:27 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:25 Monolithic- wrote:On May 08 2011 07:22 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:
[quote]
Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it.
Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it.
IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it. Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream? You're just being stubborn. It was quite obvious that cruncher knew what idra was doing and he prepared perfectly for it. I don't see how cruncher being connected to idra's stream isn't proof enough. If he wasn't cheating and cared to avoid any accusations he would have closed the stream as soon as he was matched with idra. How is that obvious? I've played and seen hundreds of games where someone seems completely prepared, just because of luck or intuition. Just because someone looks ready doesn't mean they were cheating. I see nothing wrong with using the stream to join at the same time as Idra, then minimizing it. What's the difference between having it open and minimized? The difference is that it's pretty common for people to have dual monitors and CrunCher is OBVIOUSLY not going to admit to cheating. It's totally expected for him to say he had it minimized and muted because it was already proven that he was connected to the stream so it's not like he could deny that part. He lied about what cannot be proven/disproven. Him and IdrA have a grudge and IdrA constantly beats and BMs CrunCher. There's your motive. IdrA had every right to be angry about the situation, and banning him for something like this is totally unreasonable and biased towards CrunCher. Nope. You're wrong. 1.) Yes, cruncher is obviously going to admit to not cheating, but that does not mean he did cheat. That's stupid. 2.) There was nothing to "prove" when it comes to whether or not he was connected to the stream, he admitted he was, it's not like he tried to hide it like you're implying. 3.) Prove that "he lied" before you call him a liar, that's a pretty big claim. 4.) Motive for what? Stream cheating? His motive for connecting to the stream in the first place is the most obvious and logical assumption, he wanted to queue the same time as idrA. 5.) What situation did idrA have to be angry about? He started this whole situation. He assumed Cruncher cheated without evidence, then made an extremely bad manner comment on the forums about him because of said assumption. 6.) Regarding your mindblowingly stupid assumption that TL is biased towards Cruncher, um, that is beyond false. You can find in this vary thread pictures of idrA's ban history, if they have shown any bias at all, it's FOR idra, NOT AGAINST. Regarding point 5, IdrA had plenty of reason to suspect that Cruncher stream cheated, and was justified in making the accusation. If you see someone standing over a dead body, holding a gun, and bullet wounds in the corpse, you have every right to think they had something to do with the body ending up in that condition. To simply say, "Well, he says he didn't do it, and I didn't see it, so I guess I'm out of line for making the accusation." is stupid. Cruncher had the stream open. Cruncher blind countered IdrA's build. Cruncher isn't half the player IdrA is. Pretty reasonable to suspect he used the stream to his advantage. Cruncher built zealots when idra was coming with roaches. That is not a counter. building zealots is to pressure against fast 3rd with 4 ling defense, not to defend against roaches. Ah, so by that 1 bit of knowledge that makes everything else null and void? Please, do state the exact moves cruncher made that show that he was cheating.
Seeing as he and yourself seem to be so confident he wasn't ask him to release the replay. Everyone here seems to refuse to do it.
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For a website whose stated goal is to foster the growth of e-sports, this decision is strange. Banning idra for 90 days only hurts the community infinitely more than it hurts Idra. He has an immense power to draw traffic and viewers and for all the complaints people parrot about his behavior, he's done more to expand the sc2 scene than any other player. I have friends who stopped playing in beta that still tune in to NASL just to see his games. While his 2-day ban could be justified, this just seems like retribution. And considering the history between the two, a lot of people simply think Chill was looking for an excuse to provoke Idra.
Whatever higher standard of forum behavior TL professes to adhere to is off-set by this bizarre aversion toward freedom of speech here. If you disagree with mods, you get banned. Just an extremely odd way to alienate a large portion of your viewers. Oh well, i guess it's a model you can support while there still isn't any competition....
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Its ok for nobodies to call some1 a disgrace or scum or all of the other negative things being said (all of which is hilarious imo because if you are idra you look at these and just die laughing and "who are you? o thats right your nobody in this community and no1 knows who you are, your opinion really hurts my feelings.... >.>")
But Idra cant get mad at some1 who he has a, not so happy history with, without a Mod stepping in like "woot banned Idra today /flex that'll show him who I am"
tyler can get all BM to colbi when he wants, Idra cant bm ANYONE without this happening.
Only people who lose in situation where pro players/big community members are banned/decide not to post due to ban-hammer mods.. are the players/fans who aren't Pro's.
Idra loses nothing if he doesnt read your horrible post about how Z v X Is perfectly balanced, you on the other hand will shit your pants in excitement if he gets on your thread and says "this is so true"
Pro players gain nothing from posting, and risk being banned when they do= why we dont see them post at all.
IMO banning wont affect him or his stance/attitude at all because we still get his twitter feeds and he can still say whatever/whenever on all of the other outlets that he has like SotG and Wheat's Inside the Game.
In fact the ban prob just makes him happy, because he is the subject of X many more threads about him = even if you hate idra you know his name and you are interested in any/all matches he plays even if u are tuning in to cheer for his opponent. Same if you hate idra u tune into everything he says waiting for something to fuel your hatred or to give evidence of how it is well-deserved by you.
Honestly idra has even admitted "i dont care about my haters or my trolls, because at the end of the day they still know who i am and still watch/listen to everything im involved with = more money and fame for me. Fame is a big part of infamy.
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Hrm when Destiny had his stream followers spam someone, he a got perm ban (which was removed after Destiny apologized). 90 days is perfectly fair.
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Im in awe of how many fans idra has. Frankly, he's a prick and he's annoying as hell.
User was warned for this post
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Did Idra make comments on TL or was he banned for 2 days based on what he said on stream?
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EPT
