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To answer your queries as best I can:
1. Firstly:
"We always have this bicker that he claims Viper is one of the most skilled heroes in the game"
Viper is NOT a hard hero to play. You press R on someone and then you right click them a lot.
Secondly..."skillful" heroes is a bit of a weird term because its highly opinionated and quite a complex question. However as a canned response I'd say heroes that require you to do more require more skill. Obvious ones would be Meepo, Invoker and Chen because you just flat out have to mechanically do more to use them. Others that might be considered are stuff like Tinker and QOP because you need to be fast, precise and use good judgement with a lot of potential tools.
2. Ganking onto an Abaddon lane is potentially a disaster. And if I was playing Viper under those circumstances I'm not sure I'd want to gank onto that lane either without a haste rune or invis or something. As Viper you really want to bully your own lane rather than focusing on ganking and if he's not already flat out won his own lane I'd say to stay there. The thing is that if he rotates down and doesn't get a kill he's lost out quite a lot being out of lane, which means one lost lane turns into a lost lane and one that's behind now. To make matters worse if neither of the ones opposing you in lane die its just a stop-gap measure. He can't stay there indefinitely but if he leaves you're going to start dying again.
I think its a situation you have to start rotating out of your own lane to be honest. Sitting in the lane dying doesn't help anyone but if you could smoke gank on mid you can win the mid for the Viper to make up for it.
3. Hard to say anything without replays. What I WILL say though is that if there's a chance you can win a teamfight as a group then you should be grouped. However if its certain to go badly then you need to abandon ship on it. Its very much a case-by-case basis and everyone screws up the decision from time to time; but if its happening too regularly then that person needs to work on their decision making.
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Tell your friend to random for a month and see if he still thinks Viper is one of the most high-skill cap heroes. Obviously that's not the case. Most people will point to Invoker, Meepo, or Earth Spirit as the hardest heroes in the game to play.
It's difficult to tell if your friend was in the right or not by not ganking. It depends on a lot of things, but generally if you're winning your lane mid and you don't have a ton of mobility you should just stick around and farm. If it's possible for him to gank easily i.e. he is bottling and gets a dd/haste/invis rune then he should just come help out and get an easy kill if they don't back. Consider that you might have been better off leaving your own lane and ganking mid to win that, after bottom was lost. After the gank you can both come back to bottom if Abaddon is overextending and trying to push the tower. Don't stick around in a lost lane.
To sum up your friend I think Plansix put it best:
On October 09 2014 01:28 Plansix wrote:
But Viper is super nap time dota and your friend seems like my friends I don't play Dota with.
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On October 09 2014 04:09 Nano Shinonome wrote:
Hey, thanks. This was the type of post I was looking for.
That's a really good answer for everything but there's one question on my mind. Under circumstances where you have adequate farm and levels (he hit 6 earlier than huskar) and your hardlane tower is getting killed, do you just not gank? He would have benefited from ganking (killed abaddon's support for sure, maybe killed him). Best case scenario, he kills support and Abaddon, TP's back to mid and we don't lose our tower. Even if the kills don't work out which is unlikely, we keep our tower either way and they're pushed out of lane.
Again, thank you for the answer!
Without seeing the game itself I can't really give a definite answer, but your friend probably should have made the journey bottom and helped out. At least relieve some of the pressure being applied to you. He doesn't even have to make the full trip as long as the opponents have to be conscious that he's on their side of the map. It's not very common for a Viper to take rune control, but if he goes to that rune every 2 minutes and makes it obvious where he's going then they can't safely apply the same level of pressure, and if it's a lucky rune it's absolutely a kill. Unfortunately you will find yourself in a situation like that and people will be uncooperative so you just have to make the best out of the situation and try to take advantages where you can find them to get yourself back into the game if possible. Sure they're winning a lane, but if they slip up or waste their gold things can turn around within a few minutes and all the sudden the tempo is in your control. A good thing though to always remember when you're losing is that it really is just one game of DotA. I've lost literally thousands of games and I assume you've lost a lot of games as well. At the end of the day it's one game and it's not worth getting mad over.
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Plus 1 on unbiased thread (If our curious its me he's talking about). I decided id pitch in my thoughts I had during the game. I had pretty much destroyed mid since Viper vs Huskar is insanely easy. However Aba was so fed lus the fact that he's abbadon I was pretty a gank would have failed due to borrowed time giving him all his health back and huskar just TPS in and then their 3v3 wrecks ours so I went ffor the guaranteed kill rather than something that in my opinion would have gone FUBAR.
Onto the other claims.
I do play supports (Visage and Veno to be precise) andI will play them when he wants to go WK or PA. I just like carry and mids better.
The Nyx games were from a couple monthes ago and I confessed to me needing to help the team more as Nyx (and just in general). I now check enemies inventories for wards and if creeps start attacking me when invis I GTFO and counterward. When their is a large number of enemies I now am cautious and wait until one goes off and does his thing before killing him. Some examples of team play I have done lately as Nyx is basically become a mobile sentry ward with Gem. The reason for this was because Techies had Ultra killed us with mines so we needed to know where the hell to not go so when my team pushed I scuttled ahead to make sure they didnt walk into mines and give Techies another Ultra kill. Im still working on team fighting as Nyx (getting better but I can still improve since it's dota).
AndI think we both should take the no raging thing seriously as Getting mad over me not ganking mid or you 2 feeding abbadon is just silly, it's DOTA and we should have more things like Bloodcyka Zeus hilarity rather than RAAAGE.
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About the "Gank other lanes!" thing - this is NOT something that translates from LoL to Dota equally. In LoL (in my ~2012 dated experience with the game), you could turn your won lane into OTHER won lanes with a gank, because there are limited tools for you to abuse your advantage in your own lane, but more tools for you to turn your lane's momentum into another lane's momentum.
In Dota, this is less true, because you can turn your won lane into a CRUSHED lane in certain situations, which makes the idea of turning your won lane middle into a won lane middle and an even lane bottom less appealing than ending up with a CRUSHED middle and a losing bot.
The two exceptions are mid getting a solid rune for ganking (invis, haste) or the enemy towerdiving so hard that zero allied TPs is just irresponsible. Otherwise, do not expect external ganks to impact your lane's momentum, because it shouldn't have to and is a sacrifice elsewhere if it does.
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On October 09 2014 04:47 Beirut wrote:
Tell your friend to random for a month and see if he still thinks Viper is one of the most high-skill cap heroes. Obviously that's not the case. Most people will point to Invoker, Meepo, or Earth Spirit as the hardest heroes in the game to play.
Just a note, not just to the quoted person, but to anyone in the conversation:
There's at least two ways of talking about a skill-based hero:
1. The hero takes extra skill to play in general or difficult to play at first.
2. The hero is most successful with the highest skill/competence (playing against other high skill players)
#1 and #2 are entirely different things. The best example is with Meepo and another hero such as Lycan.
Meepo has/had the worst decline in win-rate going from normal skill to very high skill over any other hero in the game.
Conversely, Lycan, a seemingly very simple hero (generally speaking, and/or at least in my opinion) gains a significant win-rate between normal and very high skill games (not the highest though, Earth Spirit and Chen are at the top, for instance), and has/had the highest win-rate in the very high skill bracket.
That said, regarding Viper itself, he sits right in the middle for this statistic, one would tend to think he's not especially reliant on skill for success.
For the record, stats are from 6.80 dotametrics
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On October 10 2014 05:33 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 04:47 Beirut wrote:
Tell your friend to random for a month and see if he still thinks Viper is one of the most high-skill cap heroes. Obviously that's not the case. Most people will point to Invoker, Meepo, or Earth Spirit as the hardest heroes in the game to play. Just a note, not just to the quoted person, but to anyone in the conversation: There's at least two ways of talking about a skill-based hero: 1. The hero takes extra skill to play in general or difficult to play at first. 2. The hero is most successful with the highest skill/competence (playing against other high skill players) #1 and #2 are entirely different things. The best example is with Meepo and another hero such as Lycan. Meepo has/had the worst decline in win-rate going from normal skill to very high skill over any other hero in the game. Conversely, Lycan, a seemingly very simple hero (generally speaking, and/or at least in my opinion) gains a significant win-rate between normal and very high skill games (not the highest though, Earth Spirit and Chen are at the top, for instance), and has/had the highest win-rate in the very high skill bracket.
I'd say this is down to opponent effectiveness, not the skill of the player playing the hero though.
Look at it this way. Meepo is technically a very difficult hero to play, you have to micro a lot and keep in mind up to five units at once on different parts of the map. However if you put a Meepo on a low-ranked team with and against relatively new players then the opposing team might well have no idea whatsoever how to counter him and get stomped. Consequently he's got a potentially monstrous skillcap, but at lower levels nobody knows how to stop him anyway so that doesn't matter because he doesn't get shut down.
Flip the thing up to high level and you get the complete opposite. The individual playing Meepo might be more skilled but the opponents are also more skilled and, therefore, more likely to know how to shut him down.
Conversely Lycan is indeed fairly straightforward. But he can't be easily shut down at any level. So he scales more directly with the skill of the player playing him than with the skill of the opponents since there's only so much extra a more skilled team can do to shut down an equivalently-skilled Lycan over a less skilled team.
Its the whole "burden of knowledge" thing applied to dealing with heroes I guess. Heroes that have obvious ways to deal with them but are difficult to deal with even then will scale more with the player's skill whilst heroes that are more complex to respond to will scale significantly with the opposition's skill.
...I'm not making any sense here am I?
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On October 10 2014 20:55 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2014 05:33 Xapti wrote:On October 09 2014 04:47 Beirut wrote:
Tell your friend to random for a month and see if he still thinks Viper is one of the most high-skill cap heroes. Obviously that's not the case. Most people will point to Invoker, Meepo, or Earth Spirit as the hardest heroes in the game to play. Just a note, not just to the quoted person, but to anyone in the conversation: There's at least two ways of talking about a skill-based hero: 1. The hero takes extra skill to play in general or difficult to play at first. 2. The hero is most successful with the highest skill/competence (playing against other high skill players) #1 and #2 are entirely different things. The best example is with Meepo and another hero such as Lycan. Meepo has/had the worst decline in win-rate going from normal skill to very high skill over any other hero in the game. Conversely, Lycan, a seemingly very simple hero (generally speaking, and/or at least in my opinion) gains a significant win-rate between normal and very high skill games (not the highest though, Earth Spirit and Chen are at the top, for instance), and has/had the highest win-rate in the very high skill bracket. I'd say this is down to opponent effectiveness, not the skill of the player playing the hero though. Look at it this way. Meepo is technically a very difficult hero to play, you have to micro a lot and keep in mind up to five units at once on different parts of the map. However if you put a Meepo on a low-ranked team with and against relatively new players then the opposing team might well have no idea whatsoever how to counter him and get stomped. Consequently he's got a potentially monstrous skillcap, but at lower levels nobody knows how to stop him anyway so that doesn't matter because he doesn't get shut down. Flip the thing up to high level and you get the complete opposite. The individual playing Meepo might be more skilled but the opponents are also more skilled and, therefore, more likely to know how to shut him down. Conversely Lycan is indeed fairly straightforward. But he can't be easily shut down at any level. So he scales more directly with the skill of the player playing him than with the skill of the opponents since there's only so much extra a more skilled team can do to shut down an equivalently-skilled Lycan over a less skilled team. Its the whole "burden of knowledge" thing applied to dealing with heroes I guess. Heroes that have obvious ways to deal with them but are difficult to deal with even then will scale more with the player's skill whilst heroes that are more complex to skill down will scale significantly with the opposition's skill. ...I'm not making any sense here am I?
No it definitely makes sense.
To add to the masses OP, your friend sounds like a dick indeed.
However, if you guys are roughly in the same skill bracket, you probably have some other flaws that he can see as gaping as well.
And to be fair, in that situatioin, CM should go jungle, bristle just sit around with his back to the creeps and spam quill. Bristle is an offlaner anyway. If he can get solo exp at safelane, that's better than anything he can get in offlane.
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As most of the more reasonable answers is here already I will take on the role of playing the devil. I think taking on different perspectives is good in life.
Viper can be seen as one of the most skillful heroes in the game because he really only has one way of playing and that is to go face to face with people and beat them down/ outlast. You have to know when this will work and when it wont. You do not have any built in escape capabilities if you put yourself in a bad position you are fucked indeed.
This leds to you having to know very much about your own team and about the opponents team every time you take a decision to fight if you overestimate your abilities to fight you might have lost the game just by hiting your opponent once. Vipers positioning is usually what will win you or lose you a fight etc.
You seem to have analyzed your friend throughly on how he usually plays the game, everyone plays it different and that should be fine. This leads me to be able to argue that you should adapt your play to your friends rather then the other way around. You know how he will play then you should try to make it easier for him to do what he does best. He likes to kill supports. That should open up the battle field for very succesful staling, split pushing and anti carry plays. Here is some example of heroes that would complement his abilities of chasing supports to the end of the world venomancer, zeus, furion, aa, clock, lion or elder titan.
Not claiming you are all wrong but atleast think about what I wrote before shoting him/ my post down.
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1. Almost everyone has his own idividual definition of "skill". My favorite episode was when I once watched a wc3 match, and player A had saved 4 grunts afters a fight with barely any hp, many commentators said something like "look at this awesome skill". But I only thought "he tried to combat heavy air units with an all melee army, how can he let that happen?"
So I find such discussions to be pointless, unless you come to a common ground on "skill" first.
2. Cant judge this without seeing the replay. In general, an appropriate time to gank is when you can get a kill. Viper is kinda bad to gank abba, as the viper dots are a free heal for abba via his ult, and he can dispel them (I think) with his shield afterwards.
3. I would say you are right here.
Anyway I personally would not be playing with such a "friend" for long.
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On October 10 2014 20:55 -Celestial- wrote:
No/yeah, I entirely agree. My post was a bit misleading. However, the fact is that in any fair game if you have skill you will be facing skilled opponents too (or at least one).
Anyway, it seems that in 6.82 that this doesn't even apply as much anymore for Meepo. It could be statitical anomaly but it seems unlikely. There's only a few percentage points of win-rate lost now between normal and VH I think. I don't really know why that is considering very little has changed. I suppose somehow the change in bounty system helped. That is bizzare since Meepo was the hero who had by far the highest win-rate advantage the shorter a game was (along with Drow), and the bounty system reduces snowballing and increases match length.
¯\_('-' )_/¯
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EPT
