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This isn't a traditional question, but more of an argument with my friend that I feel i'm correct on. For some background, my friend is a guy who only plays a certain trinity of heroes (Viper, Spectre, Nyx Assassin, to put in perspective, he has 96 games with Viper) and does quite well with them. I play multiple heroes, not having more than ~25 games with any hero. He refuses to listen to me and always makes references to the 'TL guys' and values your opinions highly, so I figured I would come here.
The first question is, what heroes are 'skillful'? We always have this bicker that he claims Viper is one of the most skilled heroes in the game (Which I find ridiculous), while on the other hand I say things like Ember Spirit or Earthshaker require more amounts of skill. I know it's a relative thing because there's some level of play required to play every hero (except 1-button king), but what heroes are the most skillful in your opinion?
The second one would be: at what time is it appropriate to gank? Moreover, this particular argument is about one game where me (and my other friend) were 'feeding' in bottom lane (aggressive Abaddon/Carry lane is hard to deal with as squishies). We clearly asked him (Viper) to gank bottom when he was level 6, and again at level 8. He argued that he wanted to outfarm and kill the Huskar in lane so Huskar couldn't have killed us (we were already being killed). This would've been OK if it hadn't lost us our T1 tower. He defends this almost religiously and tells us that we shouldn't have fed if we didn't want to have lost the lane. I agree on the feeding part but I don't think we could have done much when they could effectively towerdive us with no losses. He should have ganked in my opinion, but what's yours?
The third (and final, sorry this is so long) is to ask: How should he teamfight? Whenever we play games together (and this is more rampant as Nyx) he tends to not help out at all, or charge into a 1v4 claiming that he has invisibility, and they're usually too noob to buy wards. It's more of a problem on him not helping out, however, for example he'll just chase that one tiny support out of the lane who is clearly baiting him, instead of helping our team when we're getting Slam Dunked by Barkley. Whenever I try to ask him to play it safer, he mocks me and 'doesn't do anything because it's unsafe'. When I ask him to help in teamfights more, he defends himself saying it's better to play nyx chasing supports (when he's 24/11/13) and not to help the team. He also never goes to help towers. He claims as well that, him killing heroes is more important than TPing top to help the dying tower/teammates.
I want some of your opinions, /v/.
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Sounds like your friend is a dick.
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On October 07 2014 11:19 Just_a_Moth wrote:
Sounds like your friend is a moron.
FTFY
There are a lot of these people in gaming. We call them n00bs, not to be confused with newbs. They have lots of ego and little skill, and don't take criticism well. Unfortunately there's no saving them - they will always be dragging you down both emotionally and in-game. Just drop your friend and meet someone new.
Also, this isn't a strategy topic - it would be more appropriate for a blog.
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Avoid anyone who always thinks they know the right answer in this game.
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Sanya12364 Posts
Usually this ends with the "I like you as a friend, but we're not playing Dota together again."
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Well he's not wrong about the gank.
If he tries to gank, even if both of you have stuns, you are still very unlikely to kill an abaddon and he will sack his lane against the huskar.
The correct thing to do for me is sack the lane, gank the other lanes, and hope that one of your cores out carries.
But no, viper is not skillful, it's one of the most one dimensional hero in the game.
As for him not helping in teamfights, you guys need to draft accordingly. It's hard to help out when there aren't proper initiations and damage allocation. You also need to beware of ulti CDs and pick your fight carefully.
My noob friends used to think like you too, for them, every fight is about spamming your spells as quick as possible then.. right click... a fight starts when they see the enemy... it's beyond frustrating.
Instead of asking why he doesn't help, set up the fight so he can contribute the best.
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On October 07 2014 11:41 Uranium wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 11:19 Just_a_Moth wrote:
Sounds like your friend is a moron. FTFY There are a lot of these people in gaming. We call them n00bs, not to be confused with newbs. They have lots of ego and little skill, and don't take criticism well. Unfortunately there's no saving them - they will always be dragging you down both emotionally and in-game. Just drop your friend and meet someone new. Also, this isn't a strategy topic - it would be more appropriate for a blog.
I put this in strategy because I may be wrong and he may see things the right way, and I wanted to know how you guys actually felt about the claims above. He's a good friend when he's not being a 'n00b', but he does have those qualities.
On October 07 2014 14:08 haduken wrote:
Well he's not wrong about the gank.
If he tries to gank, even if both of you have stuns, you are still very unlikely to kill an abaddon and he will sack his lane against the huskar.
The correct thing to do for me is sack the lane, gank the other lanes, and hope that one of your cores out carries.
But no, viper is not skillful, it's one of the most one dimensional hero in the game.
As for him not helping in teamfights, you guys need to draft accordingly. It's hard to help out when there aren't proper initiations and damage allocation. You also need to beware of ulti CDs and pick your fight carefully.
My noob friends used to think like you too, for them, every fight is about spamming your spells as quick as possible then.. right click... a fight starts when they see the enemy... it's beyond frustrating.
Instead of asking why he doesn't help, set up the fight so he can contribute the best.
You're probably right with the whole hero thing. Do you mean him not having the right hero for it? He picks nyx even when I specifically tell him not to and we need a teamfight hero/support/insert role here.
About the fights, the thing is, they may happen without us even initiating. I get jumped by an Axe and a WK, for example, and a stun would be the holy grail. I tell him to help, and he either continues farming because he doesn't think it's safe or comes in afterwards and cleans up (after I die, when he could have come in earlier). I won't ask him to come and help if, say, he has a hero that's weak early and can't help but that's rarely the case. He only plays Viper, Spectre, or Nyx anymore and I feel those heroes can contribute in some way.
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1: Skillful heroes are heroes that have multiple decisions to make in any situation, and/or have some level of mechanical difficulty. That isn't really important, though, because how good/bad you are at dota entirely is typically more important than how well you know the nuances of a hero. Tinker's a fine example of a hero that has a lot of depth and "skill requirement", where Wraith King is an example of the opposite.
2: If you're ever in a situation where you feel you need ganks to win your lane, you probably shouldn't have lost your lane. So don't lose your lane. It's a different story if their mid is constantly rotating to your lane, but if you're losing your lane to your lane, then you need to reconsider your own picks and plays moreso than looking to someone else to fix it.
3: It's pretty hard to say without watching a replay, but I cbf watching a replay. Generally, try do things as a team when you've got a reason to (Just got a pickoff, have stronger push, have powerful ults up etc) and otherwise farm up yourself, or try prevent them from farming.
I wouldn't stress about it, though. It sounds like your friend is kinda bad, but not bad enough to hold anyone back. If you're all on the same page as far as skill, and he doesn't consistently feed or bring you down, then chances are you're just as wrong as each other just as much of the time... so just play for fun, and don't stress about how right or wrong your loudmouthed buddy is 
I have a similar friend, and his response whenever I challenge something retarded he says is "Lets 1v1 then". He's the mid player, most played are storm / invoker / TA. My most played are CM / Rubick / Chen. Yeah sure bro a 1v1 seems like a fantastic way to settle these arguments.
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I generally say that I don't play DotA with RLs unless they can handle the fact that they suck - in return they won't have me blaming them for everything they do, because I too know that I am bad.
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I used to have an issue with playing a variety of heroes. I'm much better now but it definitely makes for some awkward picks when you need to work around really niche heroes. Particularly Nyx/Spectre. Every game isn't a Nyx game, and every game is definitely not a Spectre game.
If he's mid, and he can help a lane then he should. I don't play mid, but usually if they get a good rune and they can help they should try. As for killing the abaddon, it shouldn't be a problem to chain stuns together and kill him before he's 6, or even after he's 6 because its only 3 seconds. That being said, if you are losing your safelane to aggro when you have some random hard carry, IE: Medusa/Spectre/AM. Just have support abandon and let them soak exp and get what they can. Try to accomplish things elsewhere with your supports like abusing their offlaner, roaming on mid, etc.
The worst thing you can do to your carry is sit in lane with them leaching their EXP when they can't get last hits. Someone like the above mentioned heroes can do fine with just levels and recover, but if you take their farm and their levels you're in for a shitty day.
That being said, if you feed the offlaner/s a lot, then expect the gank to come and safe the day, and he dies because he doesn't have the gold/experience advantage to actually be successful with his gank due to the feeding, then you can lose the game right there. If I'm in a terrible lane, I play really safe and take what I can from the lane, tell my supports to GTFO, and ask the mid to gank when he can. One gank freeing up your lane can grab you 1-2 minutes of free farm, put fear in their offlaners, and allow you to hold your own against them, but that's all reliant on you successfully playing defensive, then recovering when you can. If you feed, then your mid might get more out of just maintaining his lane dominance against their mid and increasing his farm, then hoping for an advantageous teamfight. Someone like viper with a mek/treads/point booster at around 15 minutes is really really scary since he is so tanky and can turn a team fight if the timing is hit correctly.
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That being said, if your friend is a shithead and refuses to try to learn or admit their mistakes in a game, then you might want to look for others to actively play with.
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On October 07 2014 14:19 Nano Shinonome wrote:
He picks nyx even when I specifically tell him not to and we need a teamfight hero/support/insert role here.
FWIW nyx can be played as a strong team fight support.
Sounds like more of a playstyle issue than a hero problem you're having on this point.
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If someone thinks Viper is a high skill hero you should probably disregard their opinion on all things dota.
That being said I definitely have friends who have the same bullheaded opinions that i disagree with. Yet i play dota with them all the time. Thing about playing dota with your real friends is that it should probably be more about having fun with your friends than arguing over whose favorite heros are the most skill intensive.
If youre lucky enough to convince him that you and he will only improve upon taking constructive feedback and not always picking "your 3 heros" then i think you guys will be in good shape.
But toughen up, your probably making similar mistakes to him but not being as much of a dick about it.
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On October 07 2014 14:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
If he's mid, and he can help a lane then he should. I don't play mid, but usually if they get a good rune and they can help they should try. As for killing the abaddon, it shouldn't be a problem to chain stuns together and kill him before he's 6, or even after he's 6 because its only 3 seconds. That being said, if you are losing your safelane to aggro when you have some random hard carry, IE: Medusa/Spectre/AM. Just have support abandon and let them soak exp and get what they can. Try to accomplish things elsewhere with your supports like abusing their offlaner, roaming on mid, etc.
The worst thing you can do to your carry is sit in lane with them leaching their EXP when they can't get last hits. Someone like the above mentioned heroes can do fine with just levels and recover, but if you take their farm and their levels you're in for a shitty day.
That being said, if you feed the offlaner/s a lot, then expect the gank to come and safe the day, and he dies because he doesn't have the gold/experience advantage to actually be successful with his gank due to the feeding, then you can lose the game right there. If I'm in a terrible lane, I play really safe and take what I can from the lane, tell my supports to GTFO, and ask the mid to gank when he can. One gank freeing up your lane can grab you 1-2 minutes of free farm, put fear in their offlaners, and allow you to hold your own against them, but that's all reliant on you successfully playing defensive, then recovering when you can. If you feed, then your mid might get more out of just maintaining his lane dominance against their mid and increasing his farm, then hoping for an advantageous teamfight. Someone like viper with a mek/treads/point booster at around 15 minutes is really really scary since he is so tanky and can turn a team fight if the timing is hit correctly.
Yeah, I was probably doing badly by having my support in the lane with me. I can't wrap my head around the dota meta, I was a league player in 2012. Our tower was under really heavy attack, and I said to him in skype to come help. I say it to him again when he's level 8 and he's chasing a huskar out of lane.
The way I see it, he could have come bottom and turned that shit around. We had slows/stuns (Bristle, CM, Viper) so Abaddon wouldn't be too much of a problem, and their other carry (some drow/sniper/pa) wouldn't have survived long as well. He would have secured 2 kills, our tower wouldn't have been lost, and it saves us the deaths.
Granted, we were feeding and doing very badly in that lane, but that doesn't mean you should just not gank the lane if you're higher level and have stuns.
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Lalalaland34498 Posts
As others have said this isn't quite strategy related so I've moved it to General for you!
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Hello Nano, for me a large part of this topic is about your friend and the argument that you two are currently in. I would love to give you DotA advise, but I don't want to validate either sides argument because I don't believe that's how you should look at DotA. Always worry about what you could have done better first. Even if you played almost perfect and someone else clearly throws the game there will always be places you could have improved on better.
1) Heroes with a high skill cap.
Every single heroes obviously improves immensely based on your individual mechanics, but to give you a few definite answers Tinker, Earth Spirit, Meepo, Ember Spirit, and Visage all have a very high ceiling when it comes to skill.
Viper is fairly simple and straight forward. His item choices rarely vary, he should be building your Mek probably 60-80% of the time and going right into Aghs after unless the enemy team isn't very effected by the attack slow. His skill build can differ, but never by much and he's very easy to handle during the laning phase.
2) Appropriate time to gank.
Man this is a question that wins and loses games constantly. I will address this question based on each position more than the overall question, because it's a different answer for every role.
As a carry you will rarely find yourself ganking, but sometimes it's very appropriate to do so. Ganking on carries usually depends on item pickups or key levels on certain heroes. If you're playing a Faceless Void after level 6 you should likely have a TP on you because a TP, Leap, Chrono onto an unsuspecting mid or if a teammate is being dived can change the tempo of the game completely. If you're playing Spectre which has been more and more popular recently once you hit 6, or if you decide to go the popular Urn build. Then you should look for ganks on the back of that. In conclusion for carries to be ganking early on it depends on how much farm you're getting (If you're ahead and others are behind help them.), key items, and team fight ultimates.
As a mid you are often expected to help the side lanes, but not every game permits this. A lot of ganking from mid will depend on your mid hero and runes. A haste, invis, or well used illusions can lead to easy ganks, but if your mid isn't getting impactful runes and your opponent is warding well then it will be hard for your mid to leave the lane and be effective. The best time to leave mid and go for ganks is when you've pushed the wave so the enemy doesn't realize you've left for 5-10 seconds. That short time can make or break a gank. It obviously helps if the lane they're attempting to gank is in a good position to be ganked, but not entirely necessary. It is very hard to just leave your lane and gank on request as the mid though.
As an offlane it depends on the hero, rune control, and what lanes are winning/losing. You usually won't see your offlane player ganking mid unless they're on something like Nature's Prophet, Nyx, Bounty Hunter, or another hero that is exceptional at quick 1v2 kills. More often than not if you're looking to set up ganks on an offlane it's because the enemy team went into an aggressive tri lane against your safe tri lane. When this is the case heroes like Tidehunter and Timbersaw excel. When you obtain a big teamfight ulti, superior mobility, or superior items than other people you want to use your advantage to get farther ahead.
As support you are the backbone of ganking. Your rotations within the first 15 minutes of the game can decide an entire game by themselves. More often than not you will find yourself helping other lanes rather than requesting a gank yourself. If you're in a 1v2 lane against Abandon and a carry that is killing you, pushing, and just dominating the lane. You probably should just leave the lane. If you feel like you're not being useful where you currently are then make a rotation. If you're in a safe tri/dual and your carry is okay alone then make a rotation. As a support you should always look for gank opportunities, because putting your cores ahead in their lane will win you a game.
3) How should your friend teamfight.
If he's doing the things you say he's doing then I see no reason to play DotA with them. An inability to accept responsibility and play with a team will lead to losing more often than not. The only advise I can give if you're going to play with toxic players is to keep your retards happy.
Good luck in your DotA games to come, but always remember to focus on how you can be getting better rather than your teamates doing bad things.
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I wouldn't bother to argue with your friend because he already knows many things. He doesn't have room for any other thing.
Mechanically majority of the heroes are same rather demand map awareness, positioning, game sense kind of overall knowledge of the game.
Some heroes demand more unit control but you can adjust easily if you played any strategy game.
Gank is very dependent on heroes but Viper is one of the heroes that should win his lane. It is his strength. He can gank lanes too but you shouldn't expect it from him all the time. If your lane goes bad, change the style you play and try not lose the lane more, is a better approach.
For teamfights, as I said, your friend already knows everything, classic example of trash pub players. Playing same few heroes again and again has shifted his perception in game to a very specific(and generally wrong) style.
"They are too noob to buy wards" or "I can overextend but they cannot punish me because my hero can blink away, noobs" are bad habits and will be punished as he advance through better players.
There are times you have to judge whether join a fight or continue farming, but it depends on heroes, game state etc..
I have a friend who prioritize farming over everything all the time and we lose or had hard time because of that many times before. He didn't accept before because he'd won many games with sheer gold advantage. Later on we overcame that problem now he judges the situation and decide according to what team needs. It is a good approach to be better in the game.
Sadly it seems your friend doesn't care about being better or play as a team in general.
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The whole "skill full" thing with heroes is super subjective too. For sure there are heroes that are just flat out harder like Chen, Visage, invoker, Meepo and the rest. Those heroes are both hard to play and amazing to watch in action.
But then there are heroes like Earth Shaker that have three abilities. But playing ES really well or in a game where levels and gold are hard to come buy is super hard. Or AA, who's ult is super powerful, but hard to time.
But Viper is super nap time dota and your friend seems my friends I don't play Dota with.
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On October 09 2014 00:58 Choryu wrote:
Hello Nano, for me a large part of this topic is about your friend and the argument that you two are currently in. I would love to give you DotA advise, but I don't want to validate either sides argument because I don't believe that's how you should look at DotA. Always worry about what you could have done better first. Even if you played almost perfect and someone else clearly throws the game there will always be places you could have improved on better.
1) Heroes with a high skill cap.
Every single heroes obviously improves immensely based on your individual mechanics, but to give you a few definite answers Tinker, Earth Spirit, Meepo, Ember Spirit, and Visage all have a very high ceiling when it comes to skill.
Viper is fairly simple and straight forward. His item choices rarely vary, he should be building your Mek probably 60-80% of the time and going right into Aghs after unless the enemy team isn't very effected by the attack slow. His skill build can differ, but never by much and he's very easy to handle during the laning phase.
2) Appropriate time to gank.
Man this is a question that wins and loses games constantly. I will address this question based on each position more than the overall question, because it's a different answer for every role.
As a carry you will rarely find yourself ganking, but sometimes it's very appropriate to do so. Ganking on carries usually depends on item pickups or key levels on certain heroes. If you're playing a Faceless Void after level 6 you should likely have a TP on you because a TP, Leap, Chrono onto an unsuspecting mid or if a teammate is being dived can change the tempo of the game completely. If you're playing Spectre which has been more and more popular recently once you hit 6, or if you decide to go the popular Urn build. Then you should look for ganks on the back of that. In conclusion for carries to be ganking early on it depends on how much farm you're getting (If you're ahead and others are behind help them.), key items, and team fight ultimates.
As a mid you are often expected to help the side lanes, but not every game permits this. A lot of ganking from mid will depend on your mid hero and runes. A haste, invis, or well used illusions can lead to easy ganks, but if your mid isn't getting impactful runes and your opponent is warding well then it will be hard for your mid to leave the lane and be effective. The best time to leave mid and go for ganks is when you've pushed the wave so the enemy doesn't realize you've left for 5-10 seconds. That short time can make or break a gank. It obviously helps if the lane they're attempting to gank is in a good position to be ganked, but not entirely necessary. It is very hard to just leave your lane and gank on request as the mid though.
As an offlane it depends on the hero, rune control, and what lanes are winning/losing. You usually won't see your offlane player ganking mid unless they're on something like Nature's Prophet, Nyx, Bounty Hunter, or another hero that is exceptional at quick 1v2 kills. More often than not if you're looking to set up ganks on an offlane it's because the enemy team went into an aggressive tri lane against your safe tri lane. When this is the case heroes like Tidehunter and Timbersaw excel. When you obtain a big teamfight ulti, superior mobility, or superior items than other people you want to use your advantage to get farther ahead.
As support you are the backbone of ganking. Your rotations within the first 15 minutes of the game can decide an entire game by themselves. More often than not you will find yourself helping other lanes rather than requesting a gank yourself. If you're in a 1v2 lane against Abandon and a carry that is killing you, pushing, and just dominating the lane. You probably should just leave the lane. If you feel like you're not being useful where you currently are then make a rotation. If you're in a safe tri/dual and your carry is okay alone then make a rotation. As a support you should always look for gank opportunities, because putting your cores ahead in their lane will win you a game.
3) How should your friend teamfight.
If he's doing the things you say he's doing then I see no reason to play DotA with them. An inability to accept responsibility and play with a team will lead to losing more often than not. The only advise I can give if you're going to play with toxic players is to keep your retards happy.
Good luck in your DotA games to come, but always remember to focus on how you can be getting better rather than your teamates doing bad things.
Hey, thanks. This was the type of post I was looking for.
That's a really good answer for everything but there's one question on my mind. Under circumstances where you have adequate farm and levels (he hit 6 earlier than huskar) and your hardlane tower is getting killed, do you just not gank? He would have benefited from ganking (killed abaddon's support for sure, maybe killed him). Best case scenario, he kills support and Abaddon, TP's back to mid and we don't lose our tower. Even if the kills don't work out which is unlikely, we keep our tower either way and they're pushed out of lane.
Again, thank you for the answer!
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focus on not dying.
if your lane is shit its probably because of draft. Make note of that, but its not gonna help you until next game.
The solution is to not die. If someone ganks your lane great, if not, don't be stupid and die. You have a minimap you know where your team is. Don't fall into the trap of justifying feeding by saying "mid should have ganked qq"
From the mids perspective, at lower levels ganking is better because people are dumb and don't ward/call rotations/play safe even if they are told you are coming
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To answer your queries as best I can:
1. Firstly:
"We always have this bicker that he claims Viper is one of the most skilled heroes in the game"
Viper is NOT a hard hero to play. You press R on someone and then you right click them a lot.
Secondly..."skillful" heroes is a bit of a weird term because its highly opinionated and quite a complex question. However as a canned response I'd say heroes that require you to do more require more skill. Obvious ones would be Meepo, Invoker and Chen because you just flat out have to mechanically do more to use them. Others that might be considered are stuff like Tinker and QOP because you need to be fast, precise and use good judgement with a lot of potential tools.
2. Ganking onto an Abaddon lane is potentially a disaster. And if I was playing Viper under those circumstances I'm not sure I'd want to gank onto that lane either without a haste rune or invis or something. As Viper you really want to bully your own lane rather than focusing on ganking and if he's not already flat out won his own lane I'd say to stay there. The thing is that if he rotates down and doesn't get a kill he's lost out quite a lot being out of lane, which means one lost lane turns into a lost lane and one that's behind now. To make matters worse if neither of the ones opposing you in lane die its just a stop-gap measure. He can't stay there indefinitely but if he leaves you're going to start dying again.
I think its a situation you have to start rotating out of your own lane to be honest. Sitting in the lane dying doesn't help anyone but if you could smoke gank on mid you can win the mid for the Viper to make up for it.
3. Hard to say anything without replays. What I WILL say though is that if there's a chance you can win a teamfight as a group then you should be grouped. However if its certain to go badly then you need to abandon ship on it. Its very much a case-by-case basis and everyone screws up the decision from time to time; but if its happening too regularly then that person needs to work on their decision making.
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Tell your friend to random for a month and see if he still thinks Viper is one of the most high-skill cap heroes. Obviously that's not the case. Most people will point to Invoker, Meepo, or Earth Spirit as the hardest heroes in the game to play.
It's difficult to tell if your friend was in the right or not by not ganking. It depends on a lot of things, but generally if you're winning your lane mid and you don't have a ton of mobility you should just stick around and farm. If it's possible for him to gank easily i.e. he is bottling and gets a dd/haste/invis rune then he should just come help out and get an easy kill if they don't back. Consider that you might have been better off leaving your own lane and ganking mid to win that, after bottom was lost. After the gank you can both come back to bottom if Abaddon is overextending and trying to push the tower. Don't stick around in a lost lane.
To sum up your friend I think Plansix put it best:
On October 09 2014 01:28 Plansix wrote:
But Viper is super nap time dota and your friend seems like my friends I don't play Dota with.
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On October 09 2014 04:09 Nano Shinonome wrote:
Hey, thanks. This was the type of post I was looking for.
That's a really good answer for everything but there's one question on my mind. Under circumstances where you have adequate farm and levels (he hit 6 earlier than huskar) and your hardlane tower is getting killed, do you just not gank? He would have benefited from ganking (killed abaddon's support for sure, maybe killed him). Best case scenario, he kills support and Abaddon, TP's back to mid and we don't lose our tower. Even if the kills don't work out which is unlikely, we keep our tower either way and they're pushed out of lane.
Again, thank you for the answer!
Without seeing the game itself I can't really give a definite answer, but your friend probably should have made the journey bottom and helped out. At least relieve some of the pressure being applied to you. He doesn't even have to make the full trip as long as the opponents have to be conscious that he's on their side of the map. It's not very common for a Viper to take rune control, but if he goes to that rune every 2 minutes and makes it obvious where he's going then they can't safely apply the same level of pressure, and if it's a lucky rune it's absolutely a kill. Unfortunately you will find yourself in a situation like that and people will be uncooperative so you just have to make the best out of the situation and try to take advantages where you can find them to get yourself back into the game if possible. Sure they're winning a lane, but if they slip up or waste their gold things can turn around within a few minutes and all the sudden the tempo is in your control. A good thing though to always remember when you're losing is that it really is just one game of DotA. I've lost literally thousands of games and I assume you've lost a lot of games as well. At the end of the day it's one game and it's not worth getting mad over.
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Plus 1 on unbiased thread (If our curious its me he's talking about). I decided id pitch in my thoughts I had during the game. I had pretty much destroyed mid since Viper vs Huskar is insanely easy. However Aba was so fed lus the fact that he's abbadon I was pretty a gank would have failed due to borrowed time giving him all his health back and huskar just TPS in and then their 3v3 wrecks ours so I went ffor the guaranteed kill rather than something that in my opinion would have gone FUBAR.
Onto the other claims.
I do play supports (Visage and Veno to be precise) andI will play them when he wants to go WK or PA. I just like carry and mids better.
The Nyx games were from a couple monthes ago and I confessed to me needing to help the team more as Nyx (and just in general). I now check enemies inventories for wards and if creeps start attacking me when invis I GTFO and counterward. When their is a large number of enemies I now am cautious and wait until one goes off and does his thing before killing him. Some examples of team play I have done lately as Nyx is basically become a mobile sentry ward with Gem. The reason for this was because Techies had Ultra killed us with mines so we needed to know where the hell to not go so when my team pushed I scuttled ahead to make sure they didnt walk into mines and give Techies another Ultra kill. Im still working on team fighting as Nyx (getting better but I can still improve since it's dota).
AndI think we both should take the no raging thing seriously as Getting mad over me not ganking mid or you 2 feeding abbadon is just silly, it's DOTA and we should have more things like Bloodcyka Zeus hilarity rather than RAAAGE.
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About the "Gank other lanes!" thing - this is NOT something that translates from LoL to Dota equally. In LoL (in my ~2012 dated experience with the game), you could turn your won lane into OTHER won lanes with a gank, because there are limited tools for you to abuse your advantage in your own lane, but more tools for you to turn your lane's momentum into another lane's momentum.
In Dota, this is less true, because you can turn your won lane into a CRUSHED lane in certain situations, which makes the idea of turning your won lane middle into a won lane middle and an even lane bottom less appealing than ending up with a CRUSHED middle and a losing bot.
The two exceptions are mid getting a solid rune for ganking (invis, haste) or the enemy towerdiving so hard that zero allied TPs is just irresponsible. Otherwise, do not expect external ganks to impact your lane's momentum, because it shouldn't have to and is a sacrifice elsewhere if it does.
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On October 09 2014 04:47 Beirut wrote:
Tell your friend to random for a month and see if he still thinks Viper is one of the most high-skill cap heroes. Obviously that's not the case. Most people will point to Invoker, Meepo, or Earth Spirit as the hardest heroes in the game to play.
Just a note, not just to the quoted person, but to anyone in the conversation:
There's at least two ways of talking about a skill-based hero:
1. The hero takes extra skill to play in general or difficult to play at first.
2. The hero is most successful with the highest skill/competence (playing against other high skill players)
#1 and #2 are entirely different things. The best example is with Meepo and another hero such as Lycan.
Meepo has/had the worst decline in win-rate going from normal skill to very high skill over any other hero in the game.
Conversely, Lycan, a seemingly very simple hero (generally speaking, and/or at least in my opinion) gains a significant win-rate between normal and very high skill games (not the highest though, Earth Spirit and Chen are at the top, for instance), and has/had the highest win-rate in the very high skill bracket.
That said, regarding Viper itself, he sits right in the middle for this statistic, one would tend to think he's not especially reliant on skill for success.
For the record, stats are from 6.80 dotametrics
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On October 10 2014 05:33 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 04:47 Beirut wrote:
Tell your friend to random for a month and see if he still thinks Viper is one of the most high-skill cap heroes. Obviously that's not the case. Most people will point to Invoker, Meepo, or Earth Spirit as the hardest heroes in the game to play. Just a note, not just to the quoted person, but to anyone in the conversation: There's at least two ways of talking about a skill-based hero: 1. The hero takes extra skill to play in general or difficult to play at first. 2. The hero is most successful with the highest skill/competence (playing against other high skill players) #1 and #2 are entirely different things. The best example is with Meepo and another hero such as Lycan. Meepo has/had the worst decline in win-rate going from normal skill to very high skill over any other hero in the game. Conversely, Lycan, a seemingly very simple hero (generally speaking, and/or at least in my opinion) gains a significant win-rate between normal and very high skill games (not the highest though, Earth Spirit and Chen are at the top, for instance), and has/had the highest win-rate in the very high skill bracket.
I'd say this is down to opponent effectiveness, not the skill of the player playing the hero though.
Look at it this way. Meepo is technically a very difficult hero to play, you have to micro a lot and keep in mind up to five units at once on different parts of the map. However if you put a Meepo on a low-ranked team with and against relatively new players then the opposing team might well have no idea whatsoever how to counter him and get stomped. Consequently he's got a potentially monstrous skillcap, but at lower levels nobody knows how to stop him anyway so that doesn't matter because he doesn't get shut down.
Flip the thing up to high level and you get the complete opposite. The individual playing Meepo might be more skilled but the opponents are also more skilled and, therefore, more likely to know how to shut him down.
Conversely Lycan is indeed fairly straightforward. But he can't be easily shut down at any level. So he scales more directly with the skill of the player playing him than with the skill of the opponents since there's only so much extra a more skilled team can do to shut down an equivalently-skilled Lycan over a less skilled team.
Its the whole "burden of knowledge" thing applied to dealing with heroes I guess. Heroes that have obvious ways to deal with them but are difficult to deal with even then will scale more with the player's skill whilst heroes that are more complex to respond to will scale significantly with the opposition's skill.
...I'm not making any sense here am I?
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On October 10 2014 20:55 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2014 05:33 Xapti wrote:On October 09 2014 04:47 Beirut wrote:
Tell your friend to random for a month and see if he still thinks Viper is one of the most high-skill cap heroes. Obviously that's not the case. Most people will point to Invoker, Meepo, or Earth Spirit as the hardest heroes in the game to play. Just a note, not just to the quoted person, but to anyone in the conversation: There's at least two ways of talking about a skill-based hero: 1. The hero takes extra skill to play in general or difficult to play at first. 2. The hero is most successful with the highest skill/competence (playing against other high skill players) #1 and #2 are entirely different things. The best example is with Meepo and another hero such as Lycan. Meepo has/had the worst decline in win-rate going from normal skill to very high skill over any other hero in the game. Conversely, Lycan, a seemingly very simple hero (generally speaking, and/or at least in my opinion) gains a significant win-rate between normal and very high skill games (not the highest though, Earth Spirit and Chen are at the top, for instance), and has/had the highest win-rate in the very high skill bracket. I'd say this is down to opponent effectiveness, not the skill of the player playing the hero though. Look at it this way. Meepo is technically a very difficult hero to play, you have to micro a lot and keep in mind up to five units at once on different parts of the map. However if you put a Meepo on a low-ranked team with and against relatively new players then the opposing team might well have no idea whatsoever how to counter him and get stomped. Consequently he's got a potentially monstrous skillcap, but at lower levels nobody knows how to stop him anyway so that doesn't matter because he doesn't get shut down. Flip the thing up to high level and you get the complete opposite. The individual playing Meepo might be more skilled but the opponents are also more skilled and, therefore, more likely to know how to shut him down. Conversely Lycan is indeed fairly straightforward. But he can't be easily shut down at any level. So he scales more directly with the skill of the player playing him than with the skill of the opponents since there's only so much extra a more skilled team can do to shut down an equivalently-skilled Lycan over a less skilled team. Its the whole "burden of knowledge" thing applied to dealing with heroes I guess. Heroes that have obvious ways to deal with them but are difficult to deal with even then will scale more with the player's skill whilst heroes that are more complex to skill down will scale significantly with the opposition's skill. ...I'm not making any sense here am I?
No it definitely makes sense.
To add to the masses OP, your friend sounds like a dick indeed.
However, if you guys are roughly in the same skill bracket, you probably have some other flaws that he can see as gaping as well.
And to be fair, in that situatioin, CM should go jungle, bristle just sit around with his back to the creeps and spam quill. Bristle is an offlaner anyway. If he can get solo exp at safelane, that's better than anything he can get in offlane.
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As most of the more reasonable answers is here already I will take on the role of playing the devil. I think taking on different perspectives is good in life.
Viper can be seen as one of the most skillful heroes in the game because he really only has one way of playing and that is to go face to face with people and beat them down/ outlast. You have to know when this will work and when it wont. You do not have any built in escape capabilities if you put yourself in a bad position you are fucked indeed.
This leds to you having to know very much about your own team and about the opponents team every time you take a decision to fight if you overestimate your abilities to fight you might have lost the game just by hiting your opponent once. Vipers positioning is usually what will win you or lose you a fight etc.
You seem to have analyzed your friend throughly on how he usually plays the game, everyone plays it different and that should be fine. This leads me to be able to argue that you should adapt your play to your friends rather then the other way around. You know how he will play then you should try to make it easier for him to do what he does best. He likes to kill supports. That should open up the battle field for very succesful staling, split pushing and anti carry plays. Here is some example of heroes that would complement his abilities of chasing supports to the end of the world venomancer, zeus, furion, aa, clock, lion or elder titan.
Not claiming you are all wrong but atleast think about what I wrote before shoting him/ my post down.
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1. Almost everyone has his own idividual definition of "skill". My favorite episode was when I once watched a wc3 match, and player A had saved 4 grunts afters a fight with barely any hp, many commentators said something like "look at this awesome skill". But I only thought "he tried to combat heavy air units with an all melee army, how can he let that happen?"
So I find such discussions to be pointless, unless you come to a common ground on "skill" first.
2. Cant judge this without seeing the replay. In general, an appropriate time to gank is when you can get a kill. Viper is kinda bad to gank abba, as the viper dots are a free heal for abba via his ult, and he can dispel them (I think) with his shield afterwards.
3. I would say you are right here.
Anyway I personally would not be playing with such a "friend" for long.
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On October 10 2014 20:55 -Celestial- wrote:
No/yeah, I entirely agree. My post was a bit misleading. However, the fact is that in any fair game if you have skill you will be facing skilled opponents too (or at least one).
Anyway, it seems that in 6.82 that this doesn't even apply as much anymore for Meepo. It could be statitical anomaly but it seems unlikely. There's only a few percentage points of win-rate lost now between normal and VH I think. I don't really know why that is considering very little has changed. I suppose somehow the change in bounty system helped. That is bizzare since Meepo was the hero who had by far the highest win-rate advantage the shorter a game was (along with Drow), and the bounty system reduces snowballing and increases match length.
¯\_('-' )_/¯
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EPT
