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Please remember that while this thread is for QQ and venting about the game, racism is not tolerated here on LD. |
On September 09 2012 06:03 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 05:53 Souone wrote:On September 09 2012 02:32 Aui_2000 wrote:
It is actually sort of sad because a lot of DotA players in both the pub and competitive scene tend to just give up out of habit when they're behind, which leads to a lot of negativity/chain feeding by them because they stopped caring about the game (a reason why I am against a forfeit option, but that's for another discussion). As a result, a lot of games that could potentially have been extraordinary instead become absurdly one-sided. Perhaps sometimes your team is just throwing, but I still think there's always stuff you can improve on if you just focus on your own game. Oh and I think one of the best indicators of improvement/skill--something that is normally really hard to measure in dota--is when your team is losing heavily, but you can still maintain a good score/cs. This is so true. Just yesterday I was playing a game where my team tri-laned safe lane (against 2 + jungle furion) and at like 4 min they went 0-2 on the tri-lane and were all like "this game is over we lost the tri-lane" and cried about how the game was lost for like 30 min, even thought we had a much better late game and a good turtling comp (DS mostly). In the end we lost a rax at 20ish but still managed to turtle up to 70 min of game and won... And they all wanted to give up by the 5th minute because we lost the tri-lane. Meh, you have to admit though that a lot of this stuff kind of just happens because your opponents fuck up in some major ways along the way. And it's at that point where I really don't feel like playing the game anymore, if I can only win because the opponent fucks up a lot. I instaquit games in SC2 like that as well (I don't do it in Dota 2 obviously, but I would if I could). It's like the equivalent of someone in SC2 owning you early game, then for some reason focusing 100% on micro and not doing any eco for 5 minutes, which enables you to come back. I don't want to practice for that kind of stuff, as it won't happen at high skill levels and that's the only thing that matters to me when I'm practicing for a competitive game. Imo you could stay in that game for whatever reason, but I think it's better to get the game over quickly and find a new one where you can practice properly. It's not like when you leave a game the practice time is suddenly lost. No, you can just find a new game and practice there. By the way I'm not saying everybody should do that, I'm just saying that leavers don't really deserve the hate.
I think the enemy team fucked up by trying to force the high ground too soon, by wasn't that much of a fuck up tbh.
Anyway, the problem is the attitude, my team was bitching that the game was lost when it was 3-1 5 or 6 min in ... Seriously, at least give it some time or keep it to yourself, the negativity doesn't help anyone.
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On September 09 2012 06:03 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 05:53 Souone wrote:On September 09 2012 02:32 Aui_2000 wrote:
It is actually sort of sad because a lot of DotA players in both the pub and competitive scene tend to just give up out of habit when they're behind, which leads to a lot of negativity/chain feeding by them because they stopped caring about the game (a reason why I am against a forfeit option, but that's for another discussion). As a result, a lot of games that could potentially have been extraordinary instead become absurdly one-sided. Perhaps sometimes your team is just throwing, but I still think there's always stuff you can improve on if you just focus on your own game. Oh and I think one of the best indicators of improvement/skill--something that is normally really hard to measure in dota--is when your team is losing heavily, but you can still maintain a good score/cs. This is so true. Just yesterday I was playing a game where my team tri-laned safe lane (against 2 + jungle furion) and at like 4 min they went 0-2 on the tri-lane and were all like "this game is over we lost the tri-lane" and cried about how the game was lost for like 30 min, even thought we had a much better late game and a good turtling comp (DS mostly). In the end we lost a rax at 20ish but still managed to turtle up to 70 min of game and won... And they all wanted to give up by the 5th minute because we lost the tri-lane. Meh, you have to admit though that a lot of this stuff kind of just happens because your opponents fuck up in some major ways along the way. And it's at that point where I really don't feel like playing the game anymore, if I can only win because the opponent fucks up a lot. I instaquit games in SC2 like that as well (I don't do it in Dota 2 obviously, but I would if I could). It's like the equivalent of someone in SC2 owning you early game, then for some reason focusing 100% on micro and not doing any eco for 5 minutes, which enables you to come back. I don't want to practice for that kind of stuff, as it won't happen at high skill levels and that's the only thing that matters to me when I'm practicing for a competitive game. Imo you could stay in that game for whatever reason, but I think it's better to get the game over quickly and find a new one where you can practice properly. It's not like when you leave a game the practice time is suddenly lost. No, you can just find a new game and practice there. By the way I'm not saying everybody should do that, I'm just saying that leavers don't really deserve the hate.
But isn't this where the mmr system kicks in? If you win because your opponents fucked up, perhaps next game you will meet people who won't fuck up.
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Played an hour long game. First 15-20 minutes we get stomped because our Anti Mage was bad(0-5-0) and our Silencer kept dcing and getting killed(3 or 4 times). The kill count is like 19-2 for enemy team. Eventually Anti Mage dcs for a long time and it's 4v5. Silencer sorts out the PC issues and we start a comeback. Near the end it's 45-37 or something and Anti Mage comes back. So now our Drow thinks we can push. This is an incredibly stupid idea since it's essentially 4v5(AM has been gone for ~30mins). I say we should play defensive and counter when some of them are down. No, Drow says push. Everyone goes with Drow. I know it's a terrible idea. They all run into enemy jungle and get demolished. I TP back to base and Drow rages at me for not fighting. They push and kill us and Drow says in all chat: "GG bad Ursa(me).". Fucking fuck.
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So your team had AM Silencer Drow and Ursa? How the hell did you stage a comeback? Did the 5th guy have a stun?
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On September 09 2012 06:03 heishe wrote:
Meh, you have to admit though that a lot of this stuff kind of just happens because your opponents fuck up in some major ways along the way. And it's at that point where I really don't feel like playing the game anymore, if I can only win because the opponent fucks up a lot.
I instaquit games in SC2 like that as well (I don't do it in Dota 2 obviously, but I would if I could). It's like the equivalent of someone in SC2 owning you early game, then for some reason focusing 100% on micro and not doing any eco for 5 minutes, which enables you to come back. I don't want to practice for that kind of stuff, as it won't happen at high skill levels and that's the only thing that matters to me when I'm practicing for a competitive game.
Imo you could stay in that game for whatever reason, but I think it's better to get the game over quickly and find a new one where you can practice properly. It's not like when you leave a game the practice time is suddenly lost. No, you can just find a new game and practice there.
By the way I'm not saying everybody should do that, I'm just saying that leavers don't really deserve the hate.
Your opponent probably got ahead because you fucked up at some point in time. It is pretty reasonable to assume that your opponent will make mistakes of a similar level as you did somewhere along the line. If you just leave then you're not learning how to capitalize on the mistakes your opponents will inevitably make--whether in that specific game or a later one. Also some of the mistakes that happen at "pro level" games are still pretty ridiculous. IE mistimed chain stuns, cancelled channelling, etc. Basic shit that screws up because pressure and nerves exist.
I guess people play for different reasons. If you only play for fun and not improvement--and the two are able to be 100% differentiated for you, because I know they're overlapping for a lot of people--then just do whatever you find the most fun. However, if you want to improve you should definitely not be giving up on games with the justification that if your opponent was better it wouldn't matter--a match making system implies that your opponents will make/take advantage of mistakes at a similar impact level as you will.
I really hate that entire day9 play/watch until turning point thing because at some point in a tournament you're going to need to crawl up from behind and it is useful to know how to do so well. Not to mention that some aspects of playing from behind are also easy to apply to playing an equal game/playing from ahead.
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On September 09 2012 09:14 writer22816 wrote:
So your team had AM Silencer Drow and Ursa? How the hell did you stage a comeback? Did the 5th guy have a stun?
5th was Lina if I remember right. I am bad at the game so I get matched with bad people. That's how we came back. 
Went 19-2 with Ursa next game so I feel much better.
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Gotta love dem' russians.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AJ8sb.png)
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Played my first game as TA today(might have played her once or twice in WC3dota, but I basically have no experience as her). I checked out the 5-s build thread here on TL and went mid to face a broodmother. I fail very much when trying to get a feel for the order in which to use the skills and the positioning, but I for some reason manage to kill bm 2 or 3 times in lane to which she says something along the lines "It's not like your hero is OP or anything". It felt kinda weird standing there not knowing what the fuck Im doing, playing vs a hero which counters mine pretty well and being whined at. I don't think it is QQ from my side, but it definitely was from his side.
I have randomed every game the last week to try to cover the holes in my repertoire, and my mmr must have fallen through the floor because I have so amusing games with downright stupid picks and lane choices and I haven´t seen these kind of games since I entered the beta early this spring. I kind of like it. This "anything goes" mentality where your actions doesn't really have to have any connection to the current game at hand.
I also just realized I am very bad at QQ.
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Not sure why you would turn to randoming to increase your repertoire, could just pick different heroes and actually play them more than once. So annoying for me to see people random, feels like so many games are decided by how bad the hero they random is or how bad they are at that hero.
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On September 09 2012 15:31 rob.au wrote:
Not sure why you would turn to randoming to increase your repertoire, could just pick different heroes and actually play them more than once. So annoying for me to see people random, feels like so many games are decided by how bad the hero they random is or how bad they are at that hero.
IceFrog told GabeN to random every game as he was beginning to learn Dota2...
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I got no problem with randoming to just find a new hero to learn, but doing it in a pub game is a huge disservice to the other 4 guys on your team who have to deal with you not knowing how to play your hero.
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I want to QQ about playing support with random pubbies in Dota2.
But as opposed to some people, I think it is completely viable to play support with bunch of strangers while actually enjoying it and having a decent winrate. As a long time Dota1 player I had 67-68% winrate with some of my favourite supports over hundreds of games in the leagues I used to play in. Yes, I know the overall skill level in those wasn't the greatest - but wasn't that the biggest counterargument against support playing?
So why this is not possible in Dota 2? Because Valve is making it very hard, intentionally or not, by hiding the stats and results of the games played. In Dota2 it takes three clicks in the interface to see one single game result of a single player.
Compare this to seeing the last 25 or so games played and the average cs/kd/winrate stats at a glance. This was the norm in most of the leagues.
And when supporting in pubbies, the most important thing is to identify who to support (if anyone). In Dota1 you could pretty much identify the possible candidates very quickly by just looking at their profile and latest games.
If they went carry, how did they do? On average does it seem they can play the role they chose? Are they only decent when winning? One trick pony (only plays hero x)? In Dota2 getting this information is all but impossible.
And it makes me sad. Because when playing a nice synergetic support with a decent carry player, that's the situation where I think you have most control over the outcome of the game.
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On September 09 2012 17:39 Loanshark wrote:
I got no problem with randoming to just find a new hero to learn, but doing it in a pub game is a huge disservice to the other 4 guys on your team who have to deal with you not knowing how to play your hero.
Agreed. The thing that grinds my gears is when a couple of people random; nothing wrong with that, I pick accordingly to round out the team as best I can... then we're waiting for the 5th player on our team to pick and we clearly need a certain role (say, an initiator) and the rest of the team has explained how that role would be beneficial to the team... only to have them random a terrible random and stick with it.
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On September 09 2012 18:45 LoveKillsSlowly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 17:39 Loanshark wrote:
I got no problem with randoming to just find a new hero to learn, but doing it in a pub game is a huge disservice to the other 4 guys on your team who have to deal with you not knowing how to play your hero. Agreed. The thing that grinds my gears is when a couple of people random; nothing wrong with that, I pick accordingly to round out the team as best I can... then we're waiting for the 5th player on our team to pick and we clearly need a certain role (say, an initiator) and the rest of the team has explained how that role would be beneficial to the team... only to have them random a terrible random and stick with it.
I just did that before, got Jakiro, was so ashamed 
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I wish I could figure out how to get good enough to be above 50% winrate, maybe eventually get in queues w/ pros. I dunno. I can't seem to win games. I'm sure a portion of it is what I do, postioning and what not. I just can't figure out if the best bet is to wait til most of my team picks and pick accordingly, or just first pick someone who could potentially win the game by themselves. Like TA, SS, QoP, etc. right now i'm at like 10 games below 50% and I seem to always stay there. I've made it above 50% like once or twice.
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On September 09 2012 15:31 rob.au wrote:
Not sure why you would turn to randoming to increase your repertoire, could just pick different heroes and actually play them more than once. So annoying for me to see people random, feels like so many games are decided by how bad the hero they random is or how bad they are at that hero.
I just have played my favorite/best heroes too much lately and superficially inflated my mmr. I can play almost all heroes decently, just a few glaring holes. I just don´t want to continue the vicious circle of playing too few heroes and random is a easy way out of that. Also, greed is good.
I agree, if you random, you should do it early, and if there are special needs or heroes which can royally fuck up the lineup, I never random and I have no problem other randoming and adapting to that.
I had a game yesterday where I randomed dark seer, second guy picks windrunner and third shadow fiend. I ask windrunner if its ok for her to go suicide lane and she says yes, so I go woods, sf mid. The last two guys just have to pick a safe lane that works, and what do we get? One randoms Naix and the other picks NA, screwing us over. Game was hard.
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I shouldn't get annoyed when my team camps the enemy fountain when their two mid towers are up, but it nearly cost me a game yesterday that was incredibly frustrating. An hour long back and forth ending in mega creeps on both sides, only to have my time -not- focus the ancient for a win, but die to fountain and drag it on another 10 minutes.
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It would be sick if there was a way to see item list and purchase history of a specific game. For example watching poppy and at the end get a list of purchased items and timr.
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On September 09 2012 17:06 LoveKillsSlowly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 15:31 rob.au wrote:
Not sure why you would turn to randoming to increase your repertoire, could just pick different heroes and actually play them more than once. So annoying for me to see people random, feels like so many games are decided by how bad the hero they random is or how bad they are at that hero. IceFrog told GabeN to random every game as he was beginning to learn Dota2...
Maybe just randomly pick a hero instead of using the random function?
I never understood how you get better if you start with 250 extra gold all the time.
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EPT
