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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7080 Posts
EDIT: For Nature's Prophet Ganker build I would also have phase boots instead of treads EDIT2: I would also probably swap out medallion with necrobook (Necro = core and medallion = situational) on the Lycan laning build and have Force Staff as situational on Clockwerk EDIT3: Would also add blink dagger to situational on Dark Seer | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Clock virtually ALWAYS gets 1 in cogs first, but max it last (lol). Then you kinda opt for battery max or flare max with 1 in the other, although I feel like battery max just makes ur hero far more useful early. I still kinda like drums on DP but w/e. On PL, Manta is a farming item and diffusal is a fighting item. Usually you go manta into diffusal into heart, or even manta into heart into diffusal. On Witch Doctor, Maledict is a fucking useless skill until it's level 3 or 4. So getting 1 point then forgetting about it until level 12 is awful. IMO you want to go either q/w/q/e/q/r/q/e/e/e/r or skip maledict entirely for heal and stats. Simply because until you have max maledict it's a dead skill. Also having maledict tends to make people walk into maledict range and cast it which is the wrong move like at least 50% of the time because it often ruins your positioning for your heal and ultimate which are what matter (post-cask ofc which has huge range etc). Visage is a great mek carrier put that shit back in at least situational also atos is 100% situational compared to aghs which is definitely core. I think veil is still legit on Earth Spirit even though I'm no ES player myself. Veil + his ult is really good. | ||
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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7080 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On July 30 2014 04:05 tehh4ck3r wrote: You should definitely add Mjollnir/Maelstrom to your FV build +1 On July 30 2014 04:05 tehh4ck3r wrote: EDIT2: I would also probably swap out medallion with necrobook (Necro = core and medallion = situational) on the Lycan laning build and have Force Staff as situational on Clockwerk +1 On July 30 2014 04:05 tehh4ck3r wrote: EDIT3: Would also add blink dagger to situational on Dark Seer +1 On July 30 2014 04:20 tehh4ck3r wrote: Also, your gyro build should probably be changed to maxing rocket barrage instead of maxing flak cannon +1 | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On July 30 2014 04:16 Sn0_Man wrote: I mean I think WK shoudl buy blink as carry and probably wants to go mael into mjollnir every game (the order of items is a bit fluid). Clock virtually ALWAYS gets 1 in cogs first, but max it last (lol). Then you kinda opt for battery max or flare max with 1 in the other, although I feel like battery max just makes ur hero far more useful early. I still kinda like drums on DP but w/e. On PL, Manta is a farming item and diffusal is a fighting item. Usually you go manta into diffusal into heart, or even manta into heart into diffusal. On Witch Doctor, Maledict is a fucking useless skill until it's level 3 or 4. So getting 1 point then forgetting about it until level 12 is awful. IMO you want to go either q/w/q/e/q/r/q/e/e/e/r or skip maledict entirely for heal and stats. Simply because until you have max maledict it's a dead skill. Also having maledict tends to make people walk into maledict range and cast it which is the wrong move like at least 50% of the time because it often ruins your positioning for your heal and ultimate which are what matter (post-cask ofc which has huge range etc). Visage is a great mek carrier put that shit back in at least situational also atos is 100% situational compared to aghs which is definitely core. I think veil is still legit on Earth Spirit even though I'm no ES player myself. Veil + his ult is really good. 1. Wraith King I am preparing a separate guide for a more roaming Wraith King. 2. Clockwerk Battery Assault is already maxed first and Cogs is obtained at level 4. 3. Phantom Lancer I don't think I've seen anyone get Manta first, it's usually Diffusal into Heart into Manta, no? This sounds more like preference than actual approach 4. Witch Doctor The current build is already what you suggested: Q W Q E Q R Q W W W. I don't understand why two of your suggestions are already what's posted. 5. Visage I'm seeing more tanky and forward heroes getting Mekansm and Visage roaming more and taking advantage of his range. What do you think? 6. Earth Spirit I will add it. as situational or extension. On July 30 2014 04:05 tehh4ck3r wrote: You should definitely add Mjollnir/Maelstrom to your FV build EDIT: For Nature's Prophet Ganker build I would also have phase boots instead of treads EDIT2: I would also probably swap out medallion with necrobook (Necro = core and medallion = situational) on the Lycan laning build and have Force Staff as situational on Clockwerk EDIT3: Would also add blink dagger to situational on Dark Seer 1. Faceless Void I will take a better look at Faceless Void again as it needs reshaping 2. Nature's Prohet I will add Phase Boots for Ganker 3. Lycan (Lane) I agree as Medallion doesn't serve its importance as it does when Jungling (extra Sobi Mask) 4. Clockwerk Which circumstances does it call for that? I don't think there's a situation where Force Staff would be relevant minus stats (which are assisted in other items) and a question of positioning (rush Aghanim's perhaps?) 5. Gyrocopter Build is intended to farm for late-game over ganks. What would be the difference between maxing Rocket Barrage over Flak Cannon if we're maintaining the guide as late-game purposes? | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
I meant get cogs at level 1 dude. its a 1-point wonder skill. level 4 is wayyyy too late Manta's like the best item on PL cuz it just gives him 2 illusions to start the illusion chain. It sux till level 11 really but that should happen before u get manta regardless. Even if u don't get manta first, casual yasha is still incredibly good from a farming perspective (far better than 2 blades of alacrity towards a diffusal due to the MS bonus). I dunno who you've watched but manta's super legit. You only go diffusal if you wanna get kills on supports which isn't the most reliable farm really. regarding wd u literally just didn't read what I posted regarding visage I still think it belongs somewhere in the situational since if nobody else gets it its quite legit but w/e. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Example: U hook a lifestealer and cogs him so ur team can come kill him or to keep him away from ur team or whatever. He rages and starts hitting u. Ur dead unless u have ghost or a force staff assuming he has farm. On gyro, max barrage then flak doesn't change ur late game at all (flak is still maxed by 10 which is long before your right clicks could be called "late game") but it gives you more early killing power and comparable farming power (barrage is great for farming neutrals really and the flak CD nerf made it worse for farming neuts overall). | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Force staff on Clock is clutch for a lot of melee carries like Alch, Lifestealer, Sven, or Ursa. Especially once they have BKB and are ahead or equal to clock on farm. If you cogs them without force it doesn't really help your team necessarily because you're likely trading yourself for only possibly them since they can just BKB-burst you down. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On July 30 2014 04:33 Sn0_Man wrote: i mean the roamingness of wk doesn't change the fact that maelstrom is his best farming item and blink is his best fighting item. I meant get cogs at level 1 dude. its a 1-point wonder skill. level 4 is wayyyy too late Manta's like the best item on PL cuz it just gives him 2 illusions to start the illusion chain. It sux till level 11 really but that should happen before u get manta regardless. Even if u don't get manta first, casual yasha is still incredibly good from a farming perspective (far better than 2 blades of alacrity towards a diffusal due to the MS bonus). I dunno who you've watched but manta's super legit. You only go diffusal if you wanna get kills on supports which isn't the most reliable farm really. regarding wd u literally just didn't read what I posted regarding visage I still think it belongs somewhere in the situational since if nobody else gets it its quite legit but w/e. 1. I will look into Maelstrom, but then it seems Armlet would be too late for him, no? 2. Roger, will change it now. 3. I agree on Yasha and I will look into rearranging his items 4. I will look into Maledict entirely as I feel the Healing is incredibly good early to mid-game. I've seen players in The International get 1 in Maledict (lvl 4) or just skip it all for stats. 5. Situational sounds like a good move. 6. Gyrocopter's build order will change. 7. Force Staff will be situational for Clockwerk. On July 30 2014 04:40 Logo wrote: I feel like heart on Phoenix could be moved to situational or just removed. With such long range and a good escape, in most cases if Phoenix dies it's going to be during a Supernova in which case having something like Shiva's, hex, or HH to prevent auto-attacks on Phoenix is going to do a lot more than being able to tank some extra hits. I don't know, it always just seemed absurd to me to get a heart on a hero with 3 1000+ range spells. Usually I like Shiva's if I can't supernova safely & effectively and RFO if I can. Force staff on Clock is clutch for a lot of melee carries like Alch, Lifestealer, Sven, or Ursa. Especially once they have BKB and are ahead or equal to clock on farm. If you cogs them without force it doesn't really help your team necessarily because you're likely trading yourself for only possibly them since they can just BKB-burst you down. I actually prefer HH on Phoenix over Heart, so I will take another look and likely reverse their positions. | ||
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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7080 Posts
I would also add drums to situational on the Lane build for Lifestealer | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On July 30 2014 04:43 tehh4ck3r wrote: Lifestealer jungle build: OoV doesn't really make sense there, I think it's supposed to be in Lane build I would also add drums to situational on the Lane build for Lifestealer Drums was in the old builds for Lifestealer and hasn't been justified that much when you already have 4 good items that pretty much cover what Drums wants to do in a little more time to farm it. I remove OoV from Jungle. | ||
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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7080 Posts
EDIT: Nyx Middle build should also have blink dagger as core EDIT 2: Skywrath Middle should have bloodstone as extension | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Some suggested changes I will not be applying as they may come down to preference. Items like Maelstrom feel a bit like Drums where it's suggested many times for the sake of its ease in farming when it isn't always relevant or important within the window to get it (and delaying the other core items). | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
It might also be worth mentioning in Sand King guide that you can use level 2+ sand storm to jungle. Sand King's description for Sand Storm also says, "Caustic Finale is a great way to also escape if you follow it up with Burrowstrike..." where "Caustic Finale" should be "sand storm" | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 30 2014 04:27 Torte de Lini wrote: 1. Wraith King I am preparing a separate guide for a more roaming Wraith King. It's not about roaming. Wraith King's low mobility demands that he have an engagement mechanism from items, which means either Blink, Shadow Blade, or 522 MS. Until Blink gets nerfed, it's going to be the default engagement choice because it gives you the most bang for your buck with the least disruption for your item selection (Shadow Blade needs a mana source to support it, 522 MS has to be accomplished over multiple +MS items). On July 30 2014 04:27 Torte de Lini wrote: 2. Clockwerk Battery Assault is already maxed first and Cogs is obtained at level 4. Clock skill order is really flexible, but honestly I think i'd rarely wait till level 4 for Cogs. ESPECIALLY if you're maxing Battery Assault, because the only real reason to max Assault over Rocket is the tradeoff of less harassment ability for more killing power, which means that delaying your ability to solo-kill with Cogs until level 4 when you often can get a kill at 2 or 3 doesn't make a lot of sense. On July 30 2014 04:27 Torte de Lini wrote: 3. Phantom Lancer I don't think I've seen anyone get Manta first, it's usually Diffusal into Heart into Manta, no? This sounds more like preference than actual approach You usually don't finish Manta as 1st item, this is correct. The illusions don't have enough stats to be powerful as 1st item, and you're generally your mana isn't good enough yet to support the extra Manta activation. Manta is usually completed as second item at earliest (Yasha+Diffusal->Manta, Radiance->Manta are common, but first item Manta is rare). On July 30 2014 04:27 Torte de Lini wrote: 5. Gyrocopter Build is intended to farm for late-game over ganks. What would be the difference between maxing Rocket Barrage over Flak Cannon if we're maintaining the guide as late-game purposes? Flak doesn't really even become a powerful farming spell until you have enough damage for it to be really impactful. EDIT: On July 30 2014 04:37 Sn0_Man wrote: Force is super good on Clock since u can hook in, cogs, then force URSELF out of the cogs leaving the enemy still trapped for 7 seconds (so good). Its for when u can't really afford to sit in cogs with the baddy since he'd kill you. Also it allows you to force urself forward and get cog-traps even when hook is on cd. Its very good, although clock has like a billion different itemization routes that are very situational and hard to choose from. The other thing is that Force lets you gank Blinking heroes effectively, because you can start Battery, then Force onto them from Fog/Smoke/Night vision, then hold Cogs/Hook and wait for them to Blink. They have to Blink or die to Battery, and if they Blink THEN you Hook and Cog them. Without Force, they just Blink after you Hook+Cog them. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On July 30 2014 05:41 Logo wrote: What about cogs vs flare at level 1 (or the general 1-4 clockwerk order I suppose), was there a decision there? It might also be worth mentioning in Sand King guide that you can use level 2+ sand storm to jungle. Sand King's description for Sand Storm also says, "Caustic Finale is a great way to also escape if you follow it up with Burrowstrike..." where "Caustic Finale" should be "sand storm" fixed, I'll do Sand King as well. On July 30 2014 05:54 Sn0_Man wrote: I wont argue with you too much on maelstrom but its really a great farming item for heroes like wraith king who have no other good way to hit multiple creeps at once (bfury is super wasted on WK for example). Plus mjollnir is fucking OP as shit on WK since you can put it on urself as you go in and the enemy actually kills themselves hitting you and u just come back to life. So what is the build order as it doesnt sound like it works with Armlet and BKB simultaeneously? I was told Maelstrom is over-suggested similar to Drums of Endurance. But I could put Mjollnir as Situational. Yango: I'll put Diffusal before Manta (Yasha before all). I'll task Wraith King in the to-do again. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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