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SoCal8910 Posts
On June 12 2014 21:15 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2014 21:05 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 12 2014 17:59 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 12 2014 10:48 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 12 2014 01:10 -Celestial- wrote:On June 11 2014 22:02 BluemoonSC wrote:
EDIT: I guess my question is more about the order in which you would consider getting diffusal. At 3k gold, IMO, it deserves to be outside of "core" range. How does the cost of an item effect it being core or not? Battlefury is core on AM, it costs over 4k gold. BKB is core on most carries and costs nearly 4k. Diffusal has a really nice build up and is by far one of the best ways to boost your damage on Naga by a huge amount as well as making her illusions a threat very quickly. They do very little damage otherwise. And the purge is incredibly useful. Yasha is a pure stepping-stone item and isn't particularly scary to see up. Diffusal is extremely useful in itself for both farming and killing. I would always, always prioritise it if I'm not going Radiance; for the same reason you want it on PL. Honestly I just don't view them as comparable in any way. You need a diffusal throughout the game to make your illusions scary. You want a Yasha because you're building a Manta, not because you want anything off the Yasha itself. Effectively you need a way to utilise your illusions or they're a waste. That means you either need Radiance or Diffusal, because they only do 20/25/30/35% of your own damage. For comparison's sake on the illusions: Yasha gives 3.2/4/4.8/5.6 extra damage. Diffusal 1 gives 25/26.25/27.5/28.75 extra damage. I see what you're saying, but you are arguing the definition of "core." IMO, that is some basic items that make your hero tick. Is BF a core item on antimage? absolutely not. you don't *need* a BF to be useful as antimage. Are Boots of Travel core on tinker? absolutely, in order to fully actualize his ultimate. Core items are something that you want to get every game for a hero, which is why I believe Radiance and Diffusal are situational. Yasha provides more farming utility (something you will want to be doing as an illusion carry) than a diffusal blade, IMO, which is why I believe that yasha is more "core" than diffusal. In the guides, Core Items are understood as necessary items to optimally play your hero or to build your towards optimal play (which would mean optimal items needed to fully take advantage of what your hero can do and the items he would need to get it). They are also in sequential order while Extension Items are a selection. So for AM: Battlefury would be considered core. For Naga Siren: I think it would be pretty great to have it, but perhaps it is better as extension instead as I feel it is more desired than Radiance due to how Radiance is a path you have to take while Diffusal can be picked up later and still be valid. Yeah, I think at this point its a matter of semantics. I haven't played AM in a while, but IIRC there were several ways to build him apart from BF. I could totally be wrong though! But, either way, I think my definition of core is slightly different than what your guides intend. If you're running out of guides and looking to update, could you possibly work on making the guides more specific with paths such as "poverty build" and "if you have free farm" kinda stuff? I think that would be neat and would really clarify itemization. I feel as though people get stuck heading down a path of something like getting a BF on AntiMage or Radiance on Naga (to name a few), and don't really know what to do when they've been ganked a bunch and cannot safely farm. Either way, your guides are great and if I'm playing a hero I'm not entirely sure how to build, I always seek yours out, even if there are more highly rated guides out there. You know you're doing a good job when you can bring out discussion like this. Keep up the great work! It would depend on the hero. Tabs with those kinds of specifications get to be really, really debatable and personal perspective. The other issue is that I am maxed out on Tabs and any more will actually be blocked out for some monitor resolutions (for some guides, it's already a problem). I am going to try and do it for Naga Siren for support. Thanks again, I do varied guides like Alchemist, Slardar and Nature's Prophet and I am open to do more of those.
I wonder if we can post something on the dev forums as a suggestion to change how the guides are displayed so they can be more comprehensive without having to worry about resolution?
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On June 12 2014 21:36 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2014 21:15 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 12 2014 21:05 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 12 2014 17:59 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 12 2014 10:48 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 12 2014 01:10 -Celestial- wrote:On June 11 2014 22:02 BluemoonSC wrote:
EDIT: I guess my question is more about the order in which you would consider getting diffusal. At 3k gold, IMO, it deserves to be outside of "core" range. How does the cost of an item effect it being core or not? Battlefury is core on AM, it costs over 4k gold. BKB is core on most carries and costs nearly 4k. Diffusal has a really nice build up and is by far one of the best ways to boost your damage on Naga by a huge amount as well as making her illusions a threat very quickly. They do very little damage otherwise. And the purge is incredibly useful. Yasha is a pure stepping-stone item and isn't particularly scary to see up. Diffusal is extremely useful in itself for both farming and killing. I would always, always prioritise it if I'm not going Radiance; for the same reason you want it on PL. Honestly I just don't view them as comparable in any way. You need a diffusal throughout the game to make your illusions scary. You want a Yasha because you're building a Manta, not because you want anything off the Yasha itself. Effectively you need a way to utilise your illusions or they're a waste. That means you either need Radiance or Diffusal, because they only do 20/25/30/35% of your own damage. For comparison's sake on the illusions: Yasha gives 3.2/4/4.8/5.6 extra damage. Diffusal 1 gives 25/26.25/27.5/28.75 extra damage. I see what you're saying, but you are arguing the definition of "core." IMO, that is some basic items that make your hero tick. Is BF a core item on antimage? absolutely not. you don't *need* a BF to be useful as antimage. Are Boots of Travel core on tinker? absolutely, in order to fully actualize his ultimate. Core items are something that you want to get every game for a hero, which is why I believe Radiance and Diffusal are situational. Yasha provides more farming utility (something you will want to be doing as an illusion carry) than a diffusal blade, IMO, which is why I believe that yasha is more "core" than diffusal. In the guides, Core Items are understood as necessary items to optimally play your hero or to build your towards optimal play (which would mean optimal items needed to fully take advantage of what your hero can do and the items he would need to get it). They are also in sequential order while Extension Items are a selection. So for AM: Battlefury would be considered core. For Naga Siren: I think it would be pretty great to have it, but perhaps it is better as extension instead as I feel it is more desired than Radiance due to how Radiance is a path you have to take while Diffusal can be picked up later and still be valid. Yeah, I think at this point its a matter of semantics. I haven't played AM in a while, but IIRC there were several ways to build him apart from BF. I could totally be wrong though! But, either way, I think my definition of core is slightly different than what your guides intend. If you're running out of guides and looking to update, could you possibly work on making the guides more specific with paths such as "poverty build" and "if you have free farm" kinda stuff? I think that would be neat and would really clarify itemization. I feel as though people get stuck heading down a path of something like getting a BF on AntiMage or Radiance on Naga (to name a few), and don't really know what to do when they've been ganked a bunch and cannot safely farm. Either way, your guides are great and if I'm playing a hero I'm not entirely sure how to build, I always seek yours out, even if there are more highly rated guides out there. You know you're doing a good job when you can bring out discussion like this. Keep up the great work! It would depend on the hero. Tabs with those kinds of specifications get to be really, really debatable and personal perspective. The other issue is that I am maxed out on Tabs and any more will actually be blocked out for some monitor resolutions (for some guides, it's already a problem). I am going to try and do it for Naga Siren for support. Thanks again, I do varied guides like Alchemist, Slardar and Nature's Prophet and I am open to do more of those. I wonder if we can post something on the dev forums as a suggestion to change how the guides are displayed so they can be more comprehensive without having to worry about resolution?
There isn't enough room and between you and I and anyone who reads this; the guides are a really low-priority for Valve lately ):
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SoCal8910 Posts
On June 12 2014 21:38 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2014 21:36 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 12 2014 21:15 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 12 2014 21:05 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 12 2014 17:59 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 12 2014 10:48 BluemoonSC wrote:On June 12 2014 01:10 -Celestial- wrote:On June 11 2014 22:02 BluemoonSC wrote:
EDIT: I guess my question is more about the order in which you would consider getting diffusal. At 3k gold, IMO, it deserves to be outside of "core" range. How does the cost of an item effect it being core or not? Battlefury is core on AM, it costs over 4k gold. BKB is core on most carries and costs nearly 4k. Diffusal has a really nice build up and is by far one of the best ways to boost your damage on Naga by a huge amount as well as making her illusions a threat very quickly. They do very little damage otherwise. And the purge is incredibly useful. Yasha is a pure stepping-stone item and isn't particularly scary to see up. Diffusal is extremely useful in itself for both farming and killing. I would always, always prioritise it if I'm not going Radiance; for the same reason you want it on PL. Honestly I just don't view them as comparable in any way. You need a diffusal throughout the game to make your illusions scary. You want a Yasha because you're building a Manta, not because you want anything off the Yasha itself. Effectively you need a way to utilise your illusions or they're a waste. That means you either need Radiance or Diffusal, because they only do 20/25/30/35% of your own damage. For comparison's sake on the illusions: Yasha gives 3.2/4/4.8/5.6 extra damage. Diffusal 1 gives 25/26.25/27.5/28.75 extra damage. I see what you're saying, but you are arguing the definition of "core." IMO, that is some basic items that make your hero tick. Is BF a core item on antimage? absolutely not. you don't *need* a BF to be useful as antimage. Are Boots of Travel core on tinker? absolutely, in order to fully actualize his ultimate. Core items are something that you want to get every game for a hero, which is why I believe Radiance and Diffusal are situational. Yasha provides more farming utility (something you will want to be doing as an illusion carry) than a diffusal blade, IMO, which is why I believe that yasha is more "core" than diffusal. In the guides, Core Items are understood as necessary items to optimally play your hero or to build your towards optimal play (which would mean optimal items needed to fully take advantage of what your hero can do and the items he would need to get it). They are also in sequential order while Extension Items are a selection. So for AM: Battlefury would be considered core. For Naga Siren: I think it would be pretty great to have it, but perhaps it is better as extension instead as I feel it is more desired than Radiance due to how Radiance is a path you have to take while Diffusal can be picked up later and still be valid. Yeah, I think at this point its a matter of semantics. I haven't played AM in a while, but IIRC there were several ways to build him apart from BF. I could totally be wrong though! But, either way, I think my definition of core is slightly different than what your guides intend. If you're running out of guides and looking to update, could you possibly work on making the guides more specific with paths such as "poverty build" and "if you have free farm" kinda stuff? I think that would be neat and would really clarify itemization. I feel as though people get stuck heading down a path of something like getting a BF on AntiMage or Radiance on Naga (to name a few), and don't really know what to do when they've been ganked a bunch and cannot safely farm. Either way, your guides are great and if I'm playing a hero I'm not entirely sure how to build, I always seek yours out, even if there are more highly rated guides out there. You know you're doing a good job when you can bring out discussion like this. Keep up the great work! It would depend on the hero. Tabs with those kinds of specifications get to be really, really debatable and personal perspective. The other issue is that I am maxed out on Tabs and any more will actually be blocked out for some monitor resolutions (for some guides, it's already a problem). I am going to try and do it for Naga Siren for support. Thanks again, I do varied guides like Alchemist, Slardar and Nature's Prophet and I am open to do more of those. I wonder if we can post something on the dev forums as a suggestion to change how the guides are displayed so they can be more comprehensive without having to worry about resolution? There isn't enough room and between you and I and anyone who reads this; the guides are a really low-priority for Valve lately ):
It's a shame because it seems like they're putting a lot into the new player experience with the new strings that were dug up in the last client patch (hotkeys, minimap positioning, etc) and the guides really really help new players especially coming from other games.
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I think the default item guide is good enough for beginners. For people that wants to get better, you need to create your own item panel that suits your play style. Don't follow the meta blindly, instead create your own OP strates. Thats what makes the game fun.
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For a lot of guides, I want to move Magic Wand to later.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On June 13 2014 16:58 Torte de Lini wrote:
For a lot of guides, I want to move Magic Wand to later.
out of "early game"?
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On June 13 2014 20:36 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 16:58 Torte de Lini wrote:
For a lot of guides, I want to move Magic Wand to later. out of "early game"?
Yes, for a variety of them, it's an unnecessary delay for key items they.
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Naga Siren (Lane)
Updated Descriptions - Build is now set as a carry/pusher
Tusk (Lane)
Updated Snowball description to better reflect its flexible capabilities
Updated Items' Descriptions
Removed Clairty
Ember Spirit (Lane)
Removed Assault Cuirass
Ember Spirit (Middle)
Removed Assault Cuirass
NEW GUIDE
Naga Siren (Middle)
Skill Build: Q W Q W W R W E E E R E Q Q R (1. Mirror Image 2. Rip Tide 3. Ensnare)
Starting Items: Tangos, Quelling Blade, Stout Shield
Early Game: Bottle, Ring of Aquila, Boots of Speed
Core Items: Treads, Drums of Endurance, Diffusal Blade
Situational Items: Radiance
Extension Items: Manta Style, Butterfly, Heart of Tarrasque, Boots of Travel
NEW GUIDE
Tusk (Middle)
Skill Build: Q W Q W Q R Q W W E R E E E (1. Ice Shards 2. Snowball 3. Frozen Sigil)
Starting Items: Stout Shield, Tangos, 3x Iron Branches
Early Game: Bottle, Boots of Speed, Magic Wand
Core Items: Phase Boots, Drums of Endurance, Desolator
Situational Items: Medallion of Courage, Shadow Blade, Heaven's Halberd
Extension Items: Heart of Tarrasque, Assault Cuirass, Daedalus, Monkey King Bar
Tidehunter
New Skill Build: Q, E, E, W, E, R, E, W, W, W, R, Q, Q, Q, R (1. Anchor Smash 2. Kraken Shell 3. Gush)
Moved Magic Wand to Core Items
Removed Boots of Speed
On June 11 2014 18:56 Torte de Lini wrote:To-do Guides:- Lycan (Lane)
- Skywrath Mage (Lane)
- Naga (Support - similar to how Alchemist is done)
Are we running out of guides to do?
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SoCal8910 Posts
just noticed that i dont see a carry silencer build in-game!
EDIT i guess thats your lane build!
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
On June 13 2014 16:58 Torte de Lini wrote:
For a lot of guides, I want to move Magic Wand to later.
Magic Wand is an item you get very early or not at all. The latest you'd delay it (if you're going to get it) is probably after upgraded boots. It very much belongs in early game items if you're going to leave it there.
As for the argument about core items (and I realise I'm a little late), I see an item as 'core' if you're going to get it in 90+% of games. Some items may not be as 'core' as others (Travels on Tinker may be considered to be more 'core' than BF on AM), but 99% of the time you're going to want to get BF on AM, and if you're not going BF it's usually because the enemy team have forced you to abandon that path. In my eyes that very much qualifies as core.
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The issue with Naga is that you don't make a distinction between Radiance and Diffusal Naga. I guess if you don't get a Radiance, Diffusal looks like a good place to start. But if you do get a Radiance, and most people get it, Diffusal is completelly unnecessary and other items have a much higher priority. So basically you are mashing two builds into one and it looks weird.
A core item shouldn't be an item that you skip if you get another situational item. In this case, both items are situational.
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United States47024 Posts
Your order of skills is wrong on Naga. Rip Tide is 3rd skill and Ensnare is 2nd skill.
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
On June 16 2014 03:59 SKC wrote:
The issue with Naga is that you don't make a distinction between Radiance and Diffusal Naga. I guess if you don't get a Radiance, Diffusal looks like a good place to start. But if you do get a Radiance, and most people get it, Diffusal is completelly unnecessary and other items have a much higher priority. So basically you are mashing two builds into one and it looks weird.
A core item shouldn't be an item that you skip if you get another situational item. In this case, both items are situational.
I wouldn't say Diffusal is completely unnecessary on a Radiance Naga but it does drop to a 5th or even 6th item after Radiance + BoTs + Manta + Heart.
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If you're having a good game you can get diffusal after your core farming items (radiance bots manta) before 30 minutes and your illusions can solo kill supports.
Anytime you can get away with going diffusal before heart I would definitely opt for it.
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On June 16 2014 04:37 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 03:59 SKC wrote:
The issue with Naga is that you don't make a distinction between Radiance and Diffusal Naga. I guess if you don't get a Radiance, Diffusal looks like a good place to start. But if you do get a Radiance, and most people get it, Diffusal is completelly unnecessary and other items have a much higher priority. So basically you are mashing two builds into one and it looks weird.
A core item shouldn't be an item that you skip if you get another situational item. In this case, both items are situational.
I wouldn't say Diffusal is completely unnecessary on a Radiance Naga but it does drop to a 5th or even 6th item after Radiance + BoTs + Manta + Heart.
I mean it's unnecessary in the sense that it's simply not a necessary item. Rad + BoT + Manta + Heart + Buttefly are often better than Diffusal. And then you have 1 slot that's often taken by Diffusal, but can easily be taken by other items depending on the game. Unlike Manta, for example, it's just not a item you have to get for Radiance Naga, even 6 slotted.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 16 2014 05:27 Jaeger wrote:
If you're having a good game you can get diffusal after your core farming items (radiance bots manta) before 30 minutes and your illusions can solo kill supports.
Anytime you can get away with going diffusal before heart I would definitely opt for it.
At the point where you have Radiance BoT Manta, your illusions do enough damage that making them live longer increase their impact.
Illusion effectiveness is a balance between giving them damage and giving them survivability. In the face of a Radiance Naga that already gets 2 damage items for her Illusions for farming purposes, the decision is heavily skewed toward a survivability item by your 3rd item.
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This hero does my head in.
edit: what I suggest is what Bluemoon said previously in which we change the Situational tab to be more direct regarding Radiance & Diffusal (get one or the other)
and 2. Core Items should have a Yasha in it.
I will fix the skill builds as soon as possible, Alurr is helping me as well.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On June 16 2014 06:27 Torte de Lini wrote:
This hero does my head in.
edit: what I suggest is what Bluemoon said previously in which we change the Situational tab to be more direct regarding Radiance & Diffusal (get one or the other)
and 2. Core Items should have a Yasha in it.
I will fix the skill builds as soon as possible, Alurr is helping me as well.
she's tricky. definitely one of my favorite hard carries to farm with and i think there is no set way to build her.
i tried going radiance into diffusal earlier today and i definitely felt gimped in the midgame. i was playing against a WK, so I figured that was a better time than any to get one, but i wound up killing him faster than the mana drain could deplete his mana and stop his ulti after he was disabled with fiends grip (which ALSO has mana drain).
it's obviously only one game so we can't draw any concrete conclusions, but i think (in my mind) it proved the point that getting an immediate diffusal post-radiance is questionable. i still maintain that the movement speed alone justifies the yasha. we ended up losing the game after being ahead (IMO for other reasons than my item build such as the other team's greedy draft and me fucking up an aegis snatch), so i did it just to try it when i had space to farm and see how it felt, and i wound up not liking it too much while i was farming.
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Naga Siren (Middle)
New Skill Build: Q W E Q Q R Q E E E R W W W (1. Mirror Image 2. Rip Tide 3. Ensnare)
Changed Situational Items Tab to Radiance Core Build Tab
Moved Radiance to Radiance Core Build Tab
Moved Boots of Travel to Radiance Core Build Tab
Added Yasha to Radiance Core Build Tab
Naga Siren (Lane)
Changed Situational Items Tab to Radiance Core Build Tab
Moved Radiance to Radiance Core Build Tab
Moved Boots of Travel to Radiance Core Build Tab
Added Yasha to Radiance Core Build Tab
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EPT
