EPTIn-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 73
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Germany38463 Posts
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
the only absolutely core earlygame naga item is quelling blade, it's really important for farming with illusions rtz's naga mid sometimes goes 4 0 2 1 (4 in illu) because maxed illusions are way more durable and can last hit pretty effectively with autos (3 illusions together do more than one of your own attacks if you sync their attacks), so that he can walk into the jungle and farm while lasthitting lane with illusions however in pub games, the most versatile build by 7 is probably 2131, however, since you might get flamed if you're near some kind of early clash without net, and last hitting with a fatter riptide is still easier than last hitting with illusions naga siren builds are fluid: aquila/bracer/drums/treads/arcanes can all be situationally useful before radiance but radiance is her cookie cutter core item. cut waves to push and farm jungle and get some combination of bot / manta / linkens / diffusal / heart / ac / bfly, whatever you need to win the game most often i find simply getting rad + drums + bot + yasha is useful for the movespeed to run around (487 if i recall) and burn down supports with illusions while cutting waves, but you usually need a heart to break the base. breaking the base is also tricky because you're still squishier than most carries with equal farm, and often your team will kill themselves thinking you can win a 5v5 when you can't there's also some games where your team is all fighters and you don't even need a radiance, just midgame fighting items until you win (treads diffusal), but radiance is quite the insurance policy even in these kinds of games | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
At least, according to what you wrote out here (I assume guides don't let you do that LOL). | ||
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
If you shorten the title of the thread a little bit, it'll fit into one line in forum tab  like "In-Game Standard Guide Project - One Year, 20M+ sub" | ||
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Germany38463 Posts
On June 04 2014 23:30 Sn0_Man wrote: Erm torte you manage to only have 3 points in shuriken toss for bounty, and literally 5 points in overwhelming odds for legion commander. At least, according to what you wrote out here (I assume guides don't let you do that LOL). thank you! On June 05 2014 00:28 Laserist wrote: Hey Torte, If you shorten the title of the thread a little bit, it'll fit into one line in forum tab like "In-Game Standard Guide Project - One Year, 20M+ sub" not a big deal, but that would be cool | ||
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firebfm
22 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
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LonelyCat
United Kingdom130 Posts
On June 05 2014 03:02 firebfm wrote: why no armlet and mjollnir for legion commander? Armlet has fallen off a lot generally after its nerf (even on lifestealer its not every game any more), and isn't really needed on LC, if you get an initiation item (well, only blink) first then you probably don't get armlet early enough, and if you don't get initiation item you probably need high movespeed instead (so phase, drum, probably S&Y) to be useful in ganks/fights. Its fine, but its definitely not core on LC and is probably best if you're behind and need something cheap. I don't feel like the old brown boot -> blink ->treads-> armlet builds do enough early game to justify legion jungle's effect on your other lanes, and if you're mid then you should get enough farm that a fast armlet could be a faster major item instead. Mjollnir could be situational probably. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On June 05 2014 03:33 CosmicSpiral wrote: Torte I'll have to do some number-crunching, but RoA might be viable as a situational item on Void. Void has great starting stats/damage so isn't really in need of any of the things Aquila gives you. He doesn't need wraith band or basi dmg to last hit, doesn't need the str or int to cast his spells, and while the marginal mana regen is cute he has very affordable spells. And 1 basi isn't enough to let him spam timewalk to farm so it doesn't help much there either. As far as I'm concerned you want to be rushing an attackspeed item on void (one, two or even all three of: Midas/MoM/Maelstrom). Aquila merely delays these items. | ||
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Loanshark
China3094 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On June 05 2014 03:45 Sn0_Man wrote: Void has great starting stats/damage so isn't really in need of any of the things Aquila gives you. He doesn't need wraith band or basi dmg to last hit, doesn't need the str or int to cast his spells, and while the marginal mana regen is cute he has very affordable spells. And 1 basi isn't enough to let him spam timewalk to farm so it doesn't help much there either. As far as I'm concerned you want to be rushing an attackspeed item on void (one, two or even all three of: Midas/MoM/Maelstrom). Aquila merely delays these items. He has great starting AGI and STR but his stats gain is atrocious. He rarely buys stats items besides PMS, PTs and Butterfly as he only gets flat benefits with the exception of Backtrack. So while Void is pretty great at level 1 he falls off hard around level 8-12. Usually safelane Voids max out Time Lock first and only put a value point in Backtrack, which makes them very vulnerable when they rotate for fights. His spells are only "affordable" in the sense they are cheap. But these are cheap spells in the context of a small-ass mana pool with terrible mana regen. One of the main reasons Void had terrible lane presence before 6.80 was he couldn't use Time Walk twice in a row before level 4. RoA gives him just enough mana regen to use TW semi-frequently and/or use Berserk without needing rotations for Arcane Boots or returning to fountain. Like I said, I'll have to calculate the benefits of RoA vs Midas to confirm my suspicions. Lately I've stopped going Midas -> Maelstrom in exchange for RoA + 1065 gold -> Maelstrom and it definitely feels like the stronger and more flexible fighting build. However inside Chronosphere, a Midas build should slightly outpace a RoA build past level 8. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
As I said, his mana pool is "sufficient" and the regen isn't enough to fundamentally change anything about how he farms so the item sucks. Questionable stat gain just means you need bigger items faster not delaying it with a wraith band + basi. Aquila is fundamentally a laning power item, yet it doesn't give void a substantially better laning phase. Not worth it. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On June 05 2014 06:21 Sn0_Man wrote: Aquila is fundamentally a laning power item, yet it doesn't give void a substantially better laning phase. Not worth it. Strictly speaking it's a little more than that--it's power extends up to somewhere past first minor item. It mostly loses its luster at the point where a hero has to drop other minor items to make room for major items, so it giving good stats for cost starts to conflict with the fact that it's eating up a slot, so to buy bigger items, you have to sell cheaper items that give even better stats for cost. This is part of why Aquila on melee is so much rarer than Aquila on ranged--melees will usually carry Stout for laning, so you very quickly reach the point where you have Boots+Stout+Stick+QB+Aquila+TP. Progressing to your next item forces you to sell Stout, Stick, or QB--which just kind of sucks because Aquila had to make you sell something so early in the game. Ranged can afford that slot more often, so they're less likely to end up in that predicament. | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On June 05 2014 06:21 Sn0_Man wrote: "build without midas feels like a stronger fighting build" you dont say... Because nobody in the history of Dota has ever argued that he benefits from the AS to get bash procs. It's only the main argument they use to justify it over straight Maelstrom rushes. On June 05 2014 06:21 Sn0_Man wrote:As I said, his mana pool is "sufficient" and the regen isn't enough to fundamentally change anything about how he farms so the item sucks. Questionable stat gain just means you need bigger items faster not delaying it with a wraith band + basi. His mana pool is "sufficient" if you passively farm creeps without leaving your lane for the first 20 minutes. If that's all you want to do with him, you should've picked Anti-Mage. But you want to use optimal farming patterns with MoM or Mjollnir, your pool diminishes much faster than expected. Not to mention his ability to farm in risky areas is limited by a mana barrier of 165-275 (40-50% of your entire pool until level 16), which is hard to maintain if you want to use Chrono for kills. But since he doesn't spam skills he doesn't need % regen either. It's kinda tough to crack. If we're going to use the criteria of "fundamentally changing anything about the character" to determine whether an item sucks on Void, then Midas is an equal candidate in that regard. In fact it would be worse in significant ways. But that's besides the point as I'm looking to see whether RoA is a viable substitute for HoM. I'm less interested in damage comparison than EHP and total mana regen over time. Hence doing math and stuff. The only big item that addresses his stats problem prior to 35 minutes is Aghs, which is no longer good unless it's rushed. It doesn't give him good stats either. On June 05 2014 06:26 TheYango wrote: The Basi can be used to break a T1 super fast, but most of the time Void doesn't want to break a T1 super fast, because he's not exactly that good at steamrolling that T1 without items and prefers a prolonged laning phase because until he gets at least his first minor item, it's pretty awkward to to anything with the wave pushed to an unsafe spot, because he more or less still just wants to sit in lane and farm. If you do around level 5, it's fine. Taking the offlane T1 quickly is important in this patch. A prolonged laning phase can be bad for this hero as many games depend on how soon he starts participating in fights. On June 05 2014 06:26 TheYango wrote: This is part of why Aquila on melee is so much rarer than Aquila on ranged--melees will usually carry Stout for laning, so you very quickly reach the point where you have Boots+Stout+Stick+QB+Aquila+TP. Progressing to your next item forces you to sell Stout, Stick, or QB--which just kind of sucks because Aquila had to make you sell something so early in the game. Ranged can afford that slot more often, so they're less likely to end up in that predicament. Fortunately QB isn't a concern on the hero. You only get it after a big farming item. | ||
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Germany38463 Posts
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NeoRussia
Canada381 Posts
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On June 05 2014 17:07 NeoRussia wrote: Earth spirit needs dagger! AC and maelstrom on ember is lol. Also linken's should be in there somewhere as its more common than bkb on him. Why dagger? AC applies the negative armor debuff on enemies + desolator and I thought it help position 1 carries Maelstrom for the proc no? | ||
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New Skill Build: E Q Q W Q R Q E E E R W W W (1. Fork Lightning 2. Shackle 3. Hex) Vengeful Spirit New Skill Build: Q W Q W Q R Q E W W R E E E (1. Magic Missile 2. Wave of Terror 3. Vengeance Aura) Chen Moved Pipe of Insight to Situational Items Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items Moved Necromonicon to Core Items Moved Magic Wand to Core Items Tusk Orb of Venom to Early Game Removed Arcane Boots Added Shadow Blade to Situational Items Moved Medallion of Courage to Situational Items Moved Drums of Endurance to Core Items Centaur Warrunner Removed Healing Salve Moved Wand to Core Items Put Blink Dagger before Hood of Defiance in Core Items Bounty Hunter New Skill Build: E, W, Q, Q, Q , R, Q, W, W, W, R, E, E, E (1. Shuriken Toss 2. Jinada 3. Shadow Walk) Updated skill descriptions Legion Commander (Middle) Guide is now Middle version New Skill Build: W, Q, E, Q, Q, R, Q, W, W, W, R, E, E, E (1. Overwhelming Odds 2. Press The Attack 3. Moment of Courage) Added Bottle to Early Game Added Magic Wand to Core Items Enchantress New skill build: W, E, Q, E, E, R, E, Q, Q, Q, R, W, W, W, R (1. Nature's Attendants 2. Untouchable 3. Enchant) Added Utility Items tab: Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items Added Hand of Midas as Situational Items Sniper Removed Butterfly Added Ring of Aquila to Early Game Added Mjollnir to Extension Items Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items Moved Monkey King Bar to Situational Items Naga Siren (Lane) New Skill Build: E, W, E, Q, E, R, E, Q, Q, Q, R, W, W, W, R (1. Rip Tide 2. Mirror 3. Ensnare) Removed Arcane Boots Added Treads to Core Items Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items Added Raidance to Situational Items Added Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items Added Manta Style to Extension Items Added Butterfly to Extension Items Added Drums to Core Items Added Quelling Blade to Starting Items Added Tangos to Starting Items Added Stout Shield to Starting Items Removed Clarity Removed Ring of Protection Removed Mekansm Removed Assault Cuirass Updated Descriptions Meepo Added Scythe of Vyse to Extension Items Removed Drums of Endurance Moved Blink Dagger to Core Items Guides to do: Tusk Mid Naga Siren Mid (in-progress) Lycan Lane special thanks to Alurr for the help | ||
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