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On May 26 2014 20:48 Firebolt145 wrote:
It's definitely still viable in pubs, although safelane Lycan is obviously stronger if you are guaranteed a good lane.
You can't do half the hard camps at level 1, doing the remaining camps requires you to look up an entirely separate guide on how to get the creeps to attack the hero instead of the wolves (so why use this guide at all?), one of the MEDIUM camps is a huge pain in the ass before you get enough money for morbid mask, and any 'jungler' who has to start on the easy camp to jungle reliably has no business being in the jungle in the first place.
Lycan needs a laning guide, and it's questionable if he should have a jungle guide at all - anyone who lacks the knowledge to know what to skill or build for jungle Lycan shouldn't be trying to jungle with him anyway, and the guide doesn't mention one of the most important parts of Lycan jungle to begin with.
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I would refer you to Kwarks Lycan guide. He goes through good detail on how jungle Lycan and be very effective in pubs while not using the easy camps.
But to your point, a lane Lycan guide is very desirable.
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20.5 million subscribers.
Stats coming June 6th, but I can pull up the datasheet if anyone wants to see the numbers ^^
thanks firebolt415 for the title update
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Torte, do you think this thread is belong to strategy from now on? I think it got less attention than deserved since it is buried under D2 general.
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On May 28 2014 18:19 Laserist wrote:
Torte, do you think this thread is belong to strategy from now on? I think it got less attention than deserved since it is buried under D2 general.
On the contrary, I think it's gained more publicity and awareness being in general; frankly I prefer it that way.
But it's up to the staff where they want to put it. Dota 2 Strategy section hasn't been popular before, not sure how it is now being on a separate sister site.
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W.r.t Enchantress is maxing enchant first (slash at all) best in general? It seems not - looking at datdotas information for the first 7 levels for enchantress:
WxWxWRW occurs in 7.8% of games, while WEWEERE occurs in 15.4% of games, and is the most popular build. Single point enchant builds (for level 7) occur in 25.7% of pro games, wheras 2 point enchant builds occur 29.7% of the time.
The skill build is obviously very situational, against illusions or necro book teams, maxing enchant early is more valuable, the heal is always decent early game so needs maxing early regardless. Untouchable is solid against heavy physical damage, while stats are more valuable vs nukes. I think a general purpose skill build is likely to be:
W E W E E R E Q Q Q R Q W W
2 early points in enchant help with early pushes/ganks, while maxing the heal early helps the team. I've seen so many pub teams struggle to kill a max untouchable enchantress that not maxing it seems a waste.
Mek enchantress is still solid if noone else on the team will make a mekansm early and helps her tank up, but does cut into her early game damage (dat mana cost!). I wish I could crossreference her item build (mek) with skill build in pro games but I don't know a way to do that using datdota  . I think if she is making early mek then the guide should make it obvious that she needs to push early and often! Probably also worth trying to somehow make her go buckler first (as a lot of players will make the headdress first). I don't think going drum then mek is good, bracer could perhaps be ok but anything else will delay the mek too much to be that useful. (Interestingly in pro games going mek 2nd item has a higher winrate than first item, however on average 1st item mek enchantress doesn't get mek until 20:39! whilst getting as a 2nd item only delays it by 1 minute, meaning the hero gets much more farm in those games and is probably more likely to cause the better winrate  )
I'm not entirely sure about euls on enchantress, it gives a cheap disable but doesn't tie in well with her skillset other than mana regen. I think orchid is more an extension than situational - its very rare an additional silence does nothing, and also gives her attack speed and regen (which ties in much better with her late game skillset than euls).
Edit: Obviously its obvious that i use the word obviously too much :D
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Enchant max first is so bad, I can't think of any situation for it to be viable. Heal and especially untouchable is so good, enchant doesn't have any upper hand on those skills. I believe, untouchable is one of the most underrated spells in the game, maybe top 3.
My pick-up-and-go build is 1-1-1 into max heal to max untouchable to stats.
My feel-so-pro-today build is 1-1-1 some stats(3-4) into max heal to max untouchable. I rarely skill enchant more than once.
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On May 29 2014 00:06 Laserist wrote:
Enchant max first is so bad, I can't think of any situation for it to be viable. Heal and especially untouchable is so good, enchant doesn't have any upper hand on those skills. I believe, untouchable is one of the most underrated spells in the game, maybe top 3.
My pick-up-and-go build is 1-1-1 into max heal to max untouchable to stats.
My feel-so-pro-today build is 1-1-1 some stats(3-4) into max heal to max untouchable. I rarely skill enchant more than once.
I'm pretty certain that 2 point enchant is the most standard build amongst high level players (as i highlighted in my post) and that max enchant IS definitely correct in specific scenarios (especially mid/late game, a 50% slow on a 15 second cooldown is actually relevant ignoring its other uses vs a manta hero or necro units). More than 1 level of stats before level 7 is very rare and i doubt its going to be good in almost any pub (perhaps for top level players it might be, but most people using guides should not take early stats on most/any heroes).
Indeed WEW is used in 45% of pro games, WEE being the main other option @ 24% (WEQ used in 15%). 2 Points in enchant by level 3 is used in >50% of pro games. (Also additionally WEEW accounts for 7% of the builds that start WEE, taking 2 points in enchant being used in the majority of pro games).
TL:DR I think 2 points enchant should be used as it allows earlier ganks/pushes with 2 creeps. For pure farming it makes little to no difference either.
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Hey guys, I have holiday tomorrow; so I can make some headway in the changes!
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Steam Cloud servers have been down for a few days.
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WTF that balance patch T_T
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
Meh at first glance doesn't look like anything substantial that would result in changes to your guides.
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On June 03 2014 05:34 Firebolt145 wrote:
Meh at first glance doesn't look like anything substantial that would result in changes to your guides.
You're 100% right it seems, what a relief!
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A quick peek at ur BH guide reveals that your old skillbuild sucked but that it's closer to decent post-buff (you really needed a 2nd level in shadow walk pre-6 usually).
However, there's really no justification for the 2nd point in jinada before maxing shuriken toss if your intention is to max toss anyway.
Go E/W/Q/Q/Q/R/Q/W/W/W/R/E/E/E/stats/R imo
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United States47024 Posts
You could argue that being 2-2-1-1 at level 6 maximizes your burst damage in ganks compared to straight Shuriken max, but that committing to Jinada max after that hurts your overall fighting strength once the game moves into pushing/teamfighting because in larger fights, it's unrealistic for you to run in and Jinada things before you have items--most early fights you're just going to be tossing out Shurikens and Tracks from the back like a pussy, then using Jinada to chase/clean up once spells are blown and you aren't just going to get burst down when you go in.
Though really, making decisions like that requires a pretty decent understanding of how the game is going and what level you're going to be when those fights start happening. For a guide, I'd agree that you'd just want 3-1-1 at level 5 and be done with it.
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United States47024 Posts
Why are you maxing Wind Walk second on Bounty Hunter? Wind Walk max doesn't really do anything, especially since you have that 5 second leeway with rank 1 Wind Walk to re-cast it now.
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On June 04 2014 17:44 TheYango wrote:
Why are you maxing Wind Walk second on Bounty Hunter? Wind Walk max doesn't really do anything, especially since you have that 5 second leeway with rank 1 Wind Walk to re-cast it now.
also there is this bug that you can use the bonus damage twice if you don't skill it over level 2, because hits during fade time also grant the bonus damage but don't stop you from going invis. Helpful in the laning stage.
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On June 04 2014 17:44 TheYango wrote:
Why are you maxing Wind Walk second on Bounty Hunter? Wind Walk max doesn't really do anything, especially since you have that 5 second leeway with rank 1 Wind Walk to re-cast it now.
Alright sorry, my mind is a bit all over the place.
It should be: E W QQQ R WWW R EEE
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EPT
