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On April 04 2014 15:18 Firebolt145 wrote:
Nightstalker starting items strike me a little strange with just a Salve and a Stout. There's no obvious 'best starting items' but I'd be tempted to go Tangos + a couple branches so you can guarantee a fast bottle with a few creep kills, using Void for them if you have to.
I personally prefer Phase over Treads but that's a personal choice.
In an ideal world you'd be able to get Hunter of the Night at level 2 and 4 so you can have two levels in it by your first night at 4 minutes, delaying your silence for later. I'd only really get an early level of silence against heroes such as Puck, QoP, etc. Not quite sure what I'd present as a 'cookie cutter' though.
Regarding Puck, I still feel weird seeing Mek on there at all, even as situational. You also should add a note to Waning Rift that it might be worth maxing it first over Illusory Orb if you're facing heroes that the silence is more useful against, such as Storm. Everything else looks good.
Could add Heaven's Halberd as situational for Centaur.
Disruptor and TA both look perfect to me!
On April 04 2014 15:20 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2014 15:06 Torte de Lini wrote:
Back to updating, cloud works (:
I have DP with Arcane boots, I don't recall why we did this instead of phase; is it because she has enough movement speed and arcane just has more utility? I personally still prefer Phase but Arcanes are still fine, as long as you don't disassemble them into a Bloodstone because Bloodstone blows on her.
LAte for workkkkkkkkkk but quoting to ge tback tho this!
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personally i stay on brown boots on dp and upgrade them to travels later. Early you have a bottle, as long as you control runes and/or bottle crow you shouldn't run out of mana. Later you have euls.
I don't see what phaseboots do for you, the hero doesn't right click much and you get speed from other items (euls,travels) and your passive (504 movespeed with euls and travels and maxed witchcraft). To me phaseboots just delays your next item by almost 1k gold.
arcanes are nice to have if you go for a fast mek.
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Still at work, but I think Arcanes is a nice utility items anyways. true on the delay though.
Sounds like a preference thing, but arcane just might not make sense to anyone coming in with DP if they see bottle and everything.
Then again, arcane gives them the open diversity to consider Meka if you need to.
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On April 04 2014 15:18 Firebolt145 wrote:
Nightstalker starting items strike me a little strange with just a Salve and a Stout. There's no obvious 'best starting items' but I'd be tempted to go Tangos + a couple branches so you can guarantee a fast bottle with a few creep kills, using Void for them if you have to.
I personally prefer Phase over Treads but that's a personal choice.
In an ideal world you'd be able to get Hunter of the Night at level 2 and 4 so you can have two levels in it by your first night at 4 minutes, delaying your silence for later. I'd only really get an early level of silence against heroes such as Puck, QoP, etc. Not quite sure what I'd present as a 'cookie cutter' though.
Regarding Puck, I still feel weird seeing Mek on there at all, even as situational. You also should add a note to Waning Rift that it might be worth maxing it first over Illusory Orb if you're facing heroes that the silence is more useful against, such as Storm. Everything else looks good.
Could add Heaven's Halberd as situational for Centaur.
Disruptor and TA both look perfect to me!
True on Night Stalker. Starting items were a throw in the dark as long as it was fast bottle.
I like your suggestion for the build because with silence, it feels like I'm cramming everything I can asap. I'll change that when I get home.
Will do for Puck. Still gonna keep Mek though, I really don't see much wrong with it. I'll take a look at the build again, but I recall it was just for the sake of having item variety on her; so I might just be misguided.
Will do on Centaur, I thought I had that before.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 04 2014 21:12 idonthinksobro wrote:
personally i stay on brown boots on dp and upgrade them to travels later. Early you have a bottle, as long as you control runes and/or bottle crow you shouldn't run out of mana. Later you have euls.
I don't see what phaseboots do for you, the hero doesn't right click much and you get speed from other items (euls,travels) and your passive (504 movespeed with euls and travels and maxed witchcraft). To me phaseboots just delays your next item by almost 1k gold.
arcanes are nice to have if you go for a fast mek.
Phase Boots is largely aimed at a long laning phase the same way other heroes get Phase Boots as a 1v1 laning item choice. Arcanes are aimed for early push timings.
For farmy games where neither of these are required, Brown Boots->Travels is fine.
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Dunno, nobody buys mek on puck ever because due to how silence works it's very rare for puck to be able to position properly for mek useage. Plus puck is pretty mana-constrained until hex. Also puck NEEDS blink so you can't get mek until after boots/bottle/blink which is a lot of gold and basically means the mek timing won't be fast enough to justify your 2 position hero buying it.
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United States47024 Posts
I guess Mek could be reasonable in a game where you already got Arcane Boots (so you can handle the mana) and were fed enough to get it fast after your Blink and your team needs it more than a faster Sheep or the pressure you can get off something like Dagon.
All of those things coming together is pretty rare though (if you were fed earlier, you would have gotten Treads rather than Arcanes, if you're suddenly fed a bunch of kills off your Blink timing, it might still not be better than Dagon or faster sheep except in certain kinds of games). It's probably not "never" but it's definitely rare enough that I've never played or seen a game where it made sense.
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Puck
Moved Mekansm to Situational Items
Added Magic Wand to Early Game
Removed Arcane Boots
Added Treads to Core Items
Removed Mekansm
Disruptor
New Skill Build: W Q W E W R W Q Q Q R E E E (1. Glimpse 2. Thunderstrike 3. Kinetic Field)
Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items
Removed Pipe of Insight
Removed Mekansm
Centaur Warrunner
Removed Radiance
Moved Shiva's Guard to Extension Items
Added 3x Branches to Starting Items
Added Magic Wand to Early Game
Added Heaven's Halberd to Situational Items
Nightstalker
New Skill Build: Q E Q E Q R W Q E E R W W W (1. Nuke 2. Passive 3. Silence)
Starting items: 3x Branches, Tangos
Removed Gauntlets of Strength
Added Magic Wand to Early Game
(Urn stays in Situational)
Templar Assassin
Added Yasha to Situational Items
Added Sange & Yasha to Situational Items
Sand King
Added Urn of Shadows to Core Items
Ogre Magi
New Skill Build: Q W Q E Q R Q W W W R E E E (1. Fireblast 2. Molotov 3. Bloodlust)
Added Urn of Shadows to Situational Items
Removed Pipe of Insight
Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items
Vengeful Spirit
Added Urn of Shadows to Situational Items
Removed Drums of Endurance
Moved Force Staff to Core Items
Bloodseeker
Forgot to publish some old changes from March 21st, oops
Chen
Forgot to publish some old changes from March 21st, oops
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Technically the best ogre build is 4-1-1-1 into 4-1-4-1 but thats only because ur supposed to have a carry (or even better, a bear) to buff up which isn't terribly reliable in pubs. Ur build is fine.
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Yeah, I felt one level in bloodlust would be enough as an all-around available in case you want to roam or just help your lane; the W is strong, but it can afford one less level for this all-around useful buff.
Removed Meka on Puck (fuckit)
Added Centaur Halberd
Changed up Night Stalker.
Thinking about revising jakiro...
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United States47024 Posts
Ogre skill order is quite variable based on the game. 4-4-x are generally roaming-oriented for the higher early game burst damage (whether you get the Bloodlust rank or not depends on the heroes you're roaming with/against, while 4-x-4 is more focused on buffing up a carry. 4-x-4 can also sometimes get 1-2 points of Stats at low levels.
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Lifestealer Lane: Dont you usually get a drums for the ms and the mana? Also change the skill description of Feast, you only get one point in the skillbuild. The hero description also has one sentence that is pretty questionable ("Use Open Wounds more to regain health rather as a form of initiation.").
AA Lane: I would strongly consider getting at least a early point in vortex, and not maxing cold feet first, but it seems you copied the skill description from your middle guide. Also lane AA should rush Aghs after boots.
Ember: Isnt Extension to one BF a second BF and/or Crit and BKB in situational? AC is pretty questionable, attack speed doesnt do much for you.
BB: I would rather put VG instead of Hood in core items, Hood is situational.
Spectre: Please max Desolate first instead of Dagger.
Gyro: I would remove drums and MKB from core and add BKB, put hotd into situational, satanic and MKB into extension and exchange daedalus with AB. Also I would almost never get rocket before lvl 10 and then just 1 value point.
Necrophos: Surely no Sadist until lvl 4 doesnt work without a bottle?
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United States47024 Posts
On April 05 2014 05:36 Chaosquo wrote:
Lifestealer Lane: Dont you usually get a drums for the ms and the mana? Also change the skill description of Feast, you only get one point in the skillbuild. The hero description also has one sentence that is pretty questionable ("Use Open Wounds more to regain health rather as a form of initiation.").
Drums on Naix are very game dependent.
On April 05 2014 05:36 Chaosquo wrote:
Spectre: Please max Desolate first instead of Dagger.
Depends on game. Maxing either first depends a lot on your early game development (Desolate max basically requires Boots advantage because 5% slow/speed on rank 1 Dagger doesn't really do much so you need a freefarm lane that gets you Phase Boots early enough for it to really be much more effective than Dagger first).
On April 05 2014 05:36 Chaosquo wrote:
Gyro: I would remove drums and MKB from core and add BKB, put hotd into situational, satanic and MKB into extension and exchange daedalus with AB. Also I would almost never get rocket before lvl 10 and then just 1 value point.
4-0-4 Gyro is a build for competitive play that's aimed at higher farming efficiency and teamfight effectiveness. However, you have to distinguish the fact that in pub games, Rocket still *is* a strong solo killing skill (since for the most part single heroes can't kill the rocket in time), and that in general, solo-kills are a lot safer and effective in pub games than in competitive. As such, Rocket ranks can get you kills that make them worth it.
On April 05 2014 05:36 Chaosquo wrote:
Necrophos: Surely no Sadist until lvl 4 doesnt work without a bottle?
The early game items on that hero do need a bit of a rework.
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On April 05 2014 05:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2014 05:36 Chaosquo wrote:
Lifestealer Lane: Dont you usually get a drums for the ms and the mana? Also change the skill description of Feast, you only get one point in the skillbuild. The hero description also has one sentence that is pretty questionable ("Use Open Wounds more to regain health rather as a form of initiation."). Drums on Naix are very game dependent.
Could you elaborate on that? Do you mean some games you wont have the spare gold for it and you need armlet immediately to fight or your team has enough arcane boots?
On April 05 2014 05:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2014 05:36 Chaosquo wrote:
Gyro: I would remove drums and MKB from core and add BKB, put hotd into situational, satanic and MKB into extension and exchange daedalus with AB. Also I would almost never get rocket before lvl 10 and then just 1 value point. 4-0-4 Gyro is a build for competitive play that's aimed at higher farming efficiency and teamfight effectiveness. However, you have to distinguish the fact that in pub games, Rocket still *is* a strong solo killing skill (since for the most part single heroes can't kill the rocket in time), and that in general, solo-kills are a lot safer and effective in pub games than in competitive. As such, Rocket ranks can get you kills that make them worth it.
In my experience even if the enemies dont have the coordination to kill the rocket, the target will at least run, so its a zoning spell at most. Also I would strongly argue that Rockets or Flak are superior at lvl 1 and that maxing Missile is not worth it at lvl 12+.
On April 05 2014 05:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2014 05:36 Chaosquo wrote:
Spectre: Please max Desolate first instead of Dagger. Depends on game. Maxing either first depends a lot on your early game development (Desolate max basically requires Boots advantage because 5% slow/speed on rank 1 Dagger doesn't really do much so you need a freefarm lane that gets you Phase Boots early enough for it to really be much more effective than Dagger first).
From my understanding isnt it just really useful if you ult at like lvl 7 and the enemy takes lvl 4 desolate damage?
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Lifestealer: Drums was on Lifestealer way back, I removed it. I never found it worthwhile when I could just go Yasha instead. Don't think I'll bring back Drums.
Gyro: Rocket is a nice skill overall to just have at 1 during those moments you could get a kill, I figured it's nice overall when mid wants to gank.
His items, I will take a look again; but the drums is for the movement speed mixed with Phase Boots. Keeps him moving; that's why I like it. Maybe I should put Yasha instead??
I'll take another look.
Necrolyte: What do you mean?
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Lalalaland34501 Posts
Drums are still good on Lifestealer, while Yasha is definitely a good alternative to Drums on Gyro.
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On April 05 2014 07:30 Torte de Lini wrote:
Necrolyte: What do you mean?
I mean Death Pulse is a 145 mana spell at lvl 2 and you only have like 300 mana so you can only use it twice. In the safe lane sadist helps a lot at trading with the enemy.
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Youre right.
Once the Steam Cloud server fucking works again; I'll change the build :D
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After flak cannon nerf rockets are must have on gyro not only for kills but also to farm faster.
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EPT
