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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 58

Forum Index > The Tavern
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Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-21 16:05:40
March 21 2014 16:04 GMT
#1141
The only reason ur always going AC is because that's what you are used to doing, not because it's always right.
Quoting an edit I did that u may have missed:
Perfectly legit build: Phase/Drums/SnY/Basher->Abyssal hell that even skips armlet which you could inject in there too
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
March 21 2014 16:05 GMT
#1142
On March 22 2014 00:36 Sn0_Man wrote:
AM needs a quelling blade but not to go to lane with (go with a stout shield and sufficient regen, buy the quelling from side shop). On AM, quelling isn't a last-hit-assist. It is used to speed up jungle and wave clear.

AA rushes aghs always excepting the rare cases when he needs mek. Immediately after which he rushes aghs. Everything else sucks on him in comparison. Skill build is fluid but max E is the most common/popular in side lanes. AA mid sucks dick even though Yango likes it cuz he remembers dendi AA from TI1 or something. It doesn't happen ever and shouldn't be a guide since it's simply so unpopular. Mobility items on him fall squarely under the "JESUS URSA HAS A BLINK" category.

Centaur's the only hero that can justify a hood very often since the regen and magic resist are godly for farming with double edge. Please don't get vanguard on cent its actually the worst thing on earth.

Armlet sven sucks. Soul ring DK is a safe-lane farming carry build but its reasonable. Clock isn't a "guide-able" hero so while i'm unsure what the current build is, you can argue for literally any build on clock. I don't have comments on enchantress that hero's unuseably bad.

Hyperstone isn't "core" idgaf wat u say. Perfectly legit build: Phase/Drums/SnY/Basher->Abyssal hell that even skips armlet which you could inject in there too


I'll edit the description to reflect that.

We've went over the AA and Aghs situation, I think even Yango was on the other side, meaning not rushing Aghs and for me it made sense as well given I'm not farming with this hero whatsoever.

I think with AA guide is that it is more popular than the side-lane one ):

I'll remove Armlet on Sven
I'll keep DK and I'll take another look at Naix ): Forcing my hand here
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-21 16:56:56
March 21 2014 16:06 GMT
#1143
Pugna
Removed Drums of Endurance
Moved Force Staff to Situational Items
Moved Necromonicon to Core Items
Added Black King Bar to Situational Items
Moved Aghanim's to Extension Items
Moved Veil of Discord to Situational Items

Medusa
Added Monkey King Bar to Employee Discount

Batrider
Removed Phase Boots
Added Description for Boots of Speed

Chen
Added Magic Wand to Early Game

Dark Seer
Removed Drums of Endurance
Moved Pipe of Insight to Situational Items

Dazzle
Removed Soul Ring

Doom (Lane)
Removed Armlet of Mordiggan

Drow Ranger
Removed 1x Wratih Band
Added Ring of Protection to Starting Items

Earth Spirit
Moved Force Staff to Core Items

Elder Titan
Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items

IO
Removed Soul Ring
Added Vladmir's Offering to Situational Items
Added Tranquil Boots to Situational Items

Lich
Removed Drums of Endurance

Magnus
Removed Drums of Endurance
Added Assault Cuirass as Situational Items
Added Shiva's Guard as Extension Items

Night Stalker
Added Armlet of Mordiggan

Rubick
Removed Drums of Endurance

Shadow Demon
Removed Drums of Endurance
Moved Force Staff to Core Items

Storm Spirit
Moved Black King Bar to Core Items
Moved Linken's Sphere to Situational Items

Terrorblade
Added Orb of Venom to Early Game (before boots of speed)

Tidehunter
Removed Drums of Endurance

Timbersaw
Removed Drums of Endurance

Witch Doctor
Moved Mekansm to Core Items
Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items

Axe
Moved Mekansm to Core Items
Moved Blade Mail to Extension Items
Added Shiva's Guard to Extension Items

Windranger
Removed Eth. Blade

Mirana
Added Maelstrom to Core Items

Chaos Knight
Removed Soul Ring

Crystal Maiden
Moved Force Staff to Core Items
Removed Drums of Endurance

Huskar
Removed Drums of Endurance

Sven
Removed Armlet of Mordiggan

Naix (Jungle)
BitterlyRemoved Hyperstone from Core Items

Naix (Lane)
BitterlyRemoved Hyperstone from Core Items

Enchantress
Removed Arcane Boots
Added Treads to Core Items


To Consider

Ursa
Do Ursa Lane Guide

Treant Protector
"No drums pls. I don't get the necrobook. There's no reason that necro is any better for treant than any other hero."

Abaddon
"Get rid of drums. It doesn't give that much for a support compared to a carry."

Disruptor
Get eul's off. A well-played disruptor doesn't need help trapping with field. I would put mek into core.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-21 16:09:43
March 21 2014 16:08 GMT
#1144
I mean, if ur going mjollnir, the hyperstone's not the part of it you go first anyways (maelstrom's way better). So even if you get a hyperstone EVERY GAME you still don't put it core like that.

And a big part of the reason to go AC is for armor. If u feel like ur damage is sucking then AC isn't the item u want. So while the hyperstone is often the first buy it isn't even close to always the first part of an AC.

Euls sucks on disraptor. Drums is more of a "I need 9 all stats" item which is very situational, not cookie-cutter put in a build. This goes for tree, ench, etc.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
March 21 2014 16:09 GMT
#1145
I mean AC is just a good combo all around.
But you're right about Maelstrom.

I'll remove Hyperstone, but my heart says go hyperstone bwahaha
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-21 16:17:59
March 21 2014 16:13 GMT
#1146
Especially when building at least one of those items, it's not the part you buy first.

EDIT: Holy shit that was a late response.

Others:

Beastmaster (Middle)
"It's far more useful to go mek-->blink--THEN Aghs, especially in pubs where hero kills matter a lot."

No, though as I mentioned last time when I gave you stuff to update this hero, I pointed out that Necro is a more typical follow-up than Agha.

Blink at all on Beastmaster has been increasingly rare for the last few years, largely because people have increasingly recognized the value of combat stats on that hero.


Pugna
"Arc boots really isn't necessary. He has gigantic int gain that means his mana pool gets very large very quick. He needs the hp from treads."

No. The hero's strength is largely predicated on his early push timings with Meka, so while he *eventually* outgrows the need for Arcanes, Arcanes are just far too useful at the timings where you would actually have them.

If you were going to not get Arcanes, then you would either keep Brown Boots or get Travels, because while its true he needs HP, Treads are not an efficient way to get it when the hero doesn't use the attack speed.
Moderator
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
March 21 2014 16:17 GMT
#1147
Pugna's boots are an interesting discussion actually.

I like arcanes since pugna wants to be pushing from levels 5-11 and at that stage he doesn't have the mana to do it. Arcanes helps but doesn't even fix it by itself. However, its true that after not too long arcanes turns into a drop in the vast bucket of pugna's 4.0 int gain.

I think valve recommends phase, which are kinda fun. Pugna starts with 320ms I believe so with phase he's actually very very mobile. However, with 4.0 int gain he doesn't really need the right click dmg and it's debatable the actual value of the phase active.

I don't like treads, since tread swapping isn't close to managing Pugna's mana issues. I mean, the attack speed is cute for pushing considering how fast his right click scales but I don't think it's worth it. Spending 950 gold to add 8 strength isn't worth it either, for those who make the survivability argument.

Tranqs are rejected, he can drain life fine, moves plenty fast anyway, and armor is absolutely irrelevant.

Travs are actually hella fun since you demolish towers like a beast. You can rat decently well with pugna with travs and moving at 420ms (huehuehue) is pretty fun too. However, I prefer these as a "post-arcanes-disassembly" option since rushing them sucks.

Of course, pugna also has a lot of other items he wants/needs so the trav's upgrade isn't always worth it.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
March 21 2014 16:19 GMT
#1148
haha

check patch notes above.

For AA lane, the we have a mix of Chilling touch and maxing Cold Feet first which I feel is the most all-around useful given the nature of the hero.

I know for mid, most prefer chilling touch; but it is so fluid on how to build him that I kept it with stats for last hits and Cold Feet max.

What I feel can be done is minimizing the amount of core items for AA to make getting Aghanim's remotely feasible; but maybe it's best to just let them as be.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
March 21 2014 16:20 GMT
#1149
The benefit of Arcanes pays for itself even if it's usefulness primarily holds in the 10 minutes after you buy it because those are the 10 minutes during which you do most of the work of winning the game on that hero.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-21 16:24:05
March 21 2014 16:22 GMT
#1150
Ok, got it. Pugna consideration gone.
I'll take another look at AA (lane and middle)
and Beastmaster (lane and middle)


AA (Lane)
AA (Middle)

BM (Lane)
BM (Middle)
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
March 21 2014 16:28 GMT
#1151
Mid AA is not that bad Sn0_Man, though admittedly at this point it falls squarely in the same category of mid Disruptor of "actually pretty good but nobody in pubs will let you play it".
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
March 21 2014 16:32 GMT
#1152
I feel overall, that the guides are both ok. For Lane AA, we slip in an Urn because he simply won't be able to build into AA quickly unless he sacrifices anything remotely relevant (is that fair to say?)

for Mid AA, we get an Atos; which maybe we put as situational for an early Aghs; but I don't know.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
March 21 2014 16:33 GMT
#1153
Honestly you could just take mid AA out if we're going to disagree over it, because people probably aren't going to play it anyway.
Moderator
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-21 16:35:07
March 21 2014 16:34 GMT
#1154
If u want ursa lane tips its
4-1-1-1 (first point either fury swipes for lasthitting or earthshock for killing, depends on opposition)
Early game: Phase/basi
Core: blink/vlads/BKB
Extension or luxury or w/e: (Abyssal or Hex) + heart

Vlads is overrated but probably still worth it since the situations where you can skip it are often somewhat team-reliant.

@Yango: I understand the logic behind it but its wildly unpopular and I maintain that it is throwing away a lot of potential. His E is brutal.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-21 16:39:03
March 21 2014 16:35 GMT
#1155
TBH I would argue that one of the main reasons we don't see it more is because of how Invoker is getting played so much more now, because that's pretty much always been one of AA's weaker lane matchups.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-21 16:37:39
March 21 2014 16:36 GMT
#1156
On March 22 2014 01:33 TheYango wrote:
Honestly you could just take mid AA out if we're going to disagree over it, because people probably aren't going to play it anyway.


I enjoy the back and forth, from personal experience; I think it is good.

Also, AA (Mid guide) is the 15th most popular guide:

Ancient Apparition (Middle): 203,316 subscribers. So people play it.

Just posterity:
Lifestealer (Jungle)
Nyx Assassin
Skywrath Mage
Leshrac
Medusa
Bane
Ursa
Venomancer
Pugna
Necrolyte
Broodmother
Windranger
Legion Commander (Jungle)
Chen
Ancient Apparition (Middle)


These are the 15 most popular guides back on March 10th.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
March 21 2014 16:37 GMT
#1157
Do they play it mid tho? i mean, u can't know but I'm guessing they don't XD.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
March 21 2014 16:38 GMT
#1158
On March 22 2014 01:37 Sn0_Man wrote:
Do they play it mid tho? i mean, u can't know but I'm guessing they don't XD.


No idea, but the side-lane one needs more ratings to get into the database; then we might see a shift.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
March 21 2014 16:39 GMT
#1159
On March 22 2014 01:34 Sn0_Man wrote:
Vlads is overrated but probably still worth it since the situations where you can skip it are often somewhat team-reliant.

If you're going to get Vlad's I wouldn't max Earthshock first. 4-1-1-1 matches the timings for Blink first, but if you get a Vlad's first, you get this weird time where you have to farm but got Earthshock instead of Swipes/Overpower.
Moderator
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-21 16:44:55
March 21 2014 16:44 GMT
#1160
Vlads is for hitting rosh which u can still do with 4-1-1-1.

Regardless, yes ES max should include blink first though a basi is still worth it imo. There's also some merit to mana boots in a ES-max build but u may get flamed for doing that. Mana boots happen to be fast as fuck.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
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