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LonelyCat
United Kingdom130 Posts
I'm not sure about listing AC on luna, I think generally her last item is a major damage item, either MKB vs evasion or Daedalus for pure damage (according to datdota, Luna has never built assault cuirass, however has build both MKB and Daedalus at timings of >40 minutes, which supports the idea of being the final item of her 6slot). Edit: Also re: Naix, maybe orb of venom situational? Can't remember if I said that before or not. | ||
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idonthinksobro
3138 Posts
On February 27 2014 20:30 Torte de Lini wrote: Added you to contributor's list. I will fix that now, standby thanks (: edit Our Standard Guide project will be on ESGNTV.com tonight as a special mention for our 1-year anniversary and 10-million sub accomplishment. Congratulations at what time and direct link? | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
esgntv.com -- 9:30 CET (in about 7 hours and a 1/2) Twitch.tv/ESGN_TV I'll put up the VOD regardless when it comes up (: | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On February 27 2014 21:06 LonelyCat wrote: I think Luna's build could possibly be 4/0/2/1 -> 4/4/2/1? At least I've seen lots of discussion saying that is probably best, and is the most common build I've seen used. The first 2 points in Lunar Blessing help a lot in lane, and with early pushes but when the mid-game starts and you need to farm quickly you really need the points in glaives. Lunar blessings weird scaling makes the first point most valuable again, wheras glaives get most valuable once maxed (provided you have items). I'm not sure about listing AC on luna, I think generally her last item is a major damage item, either MKB vs evasion or Daedalus for pure damage (according to datdota, Luna has never built assault cuirass, however has build both MKB and Daedalus at timings of >40 minutes, which supports the idea of being the final item of her 6slot). Edit: Also re: Naix, maybe orb of venom situational? Can't remember if I said that before or not. For me, Luna has come up weird and I really am unsure of how to build her. I like the idea of early glaives especially with how the laning phase has become. Didn't know Daedalus worked on Luna. No butterfly? For core, I was thinking: Drums, Yasha, BKB Situational: Manta, HOTD, MKB Extension: Butterfly, Satanic, Daedlus | ||
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idonthinksobro
3138 Posts
/e the crit only hits one target afaik. I think AA needs a support guide, it is much more likely to see a support AA instead of a mid AA. Not really sure about skill builds, i have seen 1/1/4/1 a couple of times and it can be really strong if you want to be agressive early. Core Items: arcane, mek, aghs - situational euls. And ofc all the support stuff like wards and the really expensive support items like sheep if the game goes super late. But i really don't like the hero so maybe someone else should figure out a skill build. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
I'm more concerned on Luna's outdated skill build than items. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Moved Mekansm to Core Items Phoenix (Middle) Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items Phoenix (Lane) Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items Luna Moved Monkey King Bar to Situational Items Added Butterfly to Extension Items Not really happy with the Luna guide at all though :x Shadow Shaman (Lane) Moved Shiva's Guard to Extension Items Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items Added Mekansm to Situational Items NEW GUIDE Shadow Shaman (Middle) Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q W W W R E E E (1. Ether Shock 2. Hex 3. Shackles) Starting Items: Tango, Healing Salve, 4x Branches Early Game: Bottle, Boots Core Items: Arcane Boots, Blink Dagger Situational Items: Ghost Scepter, Eul's Scepter of Divinity and Black King Bar, Mekansm Extension Items: Aghanim's, Shiva's Guard, Scythe of Vyse, Refresher's Orb Lifestealer (Jungle) New Skill Build: W E W Q E R E Q Q Q R E W W (1. Open Wounds 2. Rage 3. Feast) Added Orb of Venom to Situational Items Removed Drums of Endurance NEW GUIDE Lifestealer (Lane) Skill Build: W E Q E E E R E Q Q Q R W W W (1. Open Wounds 2. Rage 3. Feast) Starting Items: Stout Shield, Tango, 2x branches, Healing Salve Early Game: Phase Boots Core Items: Armlet, Basher, Hyperstone Situational Items: Midas, S&Y, Mjollnir, Heaven's Halberd Extension Items: Cuirass, Abyssal, Heart, MKB NEW GUIDE Beastmaster (Middle) Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q W W W R E E E (1. Wild Axes 2. Call of the Wild 3. Inner Beast) Starting Items: 3x Branches and Tangos Early Game: Bottle, Boots, Wand Core Items: Arcane Boots, Mekansm, Aghanim's Utility Items: Smoke of Deceit Situational Items: Blink Dagger, Vlad's, Heaven's Halberd, Necromonicon, Pipe Extension Items: Cuirass, Hearth, Scythe of Vyse Elder Titan Changed Skill Build: W Q W Q W R W E E E R E Q Q (1. Astral Spirit 2. Natural Order 3. Echo Stomp) Luna Changed Skill Build: Q E Q E Q R Q W W W R W E E (1. Lucent Beam 2. Moon Glaive 3. Lunar Blessing) Moved Manta Style to Situational Items Added Yasha to Core Items Removed Assault Cuirass Added Description for Manta Style, Monkey King Bar, Daedlus Still to do: Axe (Jungle) Guide Elder Titan (Lane) Guide Tusk (Middle) Guide Lycan (Lane) Guide Ancient Apparition (Lane) Guide | ||
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idonthinksobro
3138 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Meepo should be fixed. Build should now be: W E R Q W W W Q Q R Q E E E (1. Poof 2. Earthbind 3. Geostrike) Moved Orb of Venom to Early Game | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
AA support is tricky. You generally don't start leveling all 3 skills until you have Arcane Boots up, because your mana can't support all those skills (all of his mana costs are quite high). Cold Feet is the skill you max first UNLESS it's a 3v3 lane (which is rare in pubs) because with anything less than 3 involved heroes the stun from Cold Feet is more useful than more Chilling Touch damage (excepting the case where there's no lead-off stun for Cold Feet, but you shouldn't pick AA support if your ally laners don't have other stuns). So at level 6, you are either 3-0-2-1, 3-2-0-1, 3-0-1-1 + 1 stats, or 3-0-1-1 + 1 stats, highly variable based on the game. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Whats the rationale behind it? I don't understand the point of early E? Ah, I get what you're suggesting, that was a bit difficult to read. But why any points in E? Just to push? No two points in W for the boar so you can slow when ganking? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 28 2014 00:36 Torte de Lini wrote: Ah, I get what you're suggesting, that was a bit difficult to read. But why any points in E? Just to push? No two points in W for the boar so you can slow when ganking? Boar doesn't permaslow without at least 1 point aura anyway, IIRC. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
AA support is tricky. You generally don't start leveling all 3 skills until you have Arcane Boots up, because your mana can't support all those skills (all of his mana costs are quite high). Cold Feet is the skill you max first UNLESS it's a 3v3 lane (which is rare in pubs) because with anything less than 3 involved heroes the stun from Cold Feet is more useful than more Chilling Touch damage (excepting the case where there's no lead-off stun for Cold Feet, but you shouldn't pick AA support if your ally laners don't have other stuns). So at level 6, you are either 3-0-2-1, 3-2-0-1, 3-0-1-1 + 1 stats, or 3-0-1-1 + 1 stats, highly variable based on the game. Here is the mid version of Ancient Apparition. I'll look at a side one after I fix BM http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=128898296 forgot to link it | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On February 28 2014 00:39 TheYango wrote: Because being able to rune check with bird is meaningless until you already have Bottle and can push the lane which you won't have yet when you ding 2 (at best you will have just gotten your Bottle if you got all 4 lasthits on the first wave). Aura level 2 gives you slight lane pressure to push the lane and a man-fighting advantage vs melees thanks to the attack speed for both yourself and your creeps. Boar doesn't permaslow without at least 1 point aura anyway, IIRC. Had no idea about the perma-slow! | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Still, the other reasons for aura at 2 still apply. On February 28 2014 00:40 Torte de Lini wrote: Here is the mid version of Ancient Apparition. I'll look at a side one after I fix BM http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=128898296 forgot to link it Eul's is gimmicky. It's cute the first time you play the hero for the Cold Feet+Eul's combo, but honestly with Atos in the game, there's not really a reason to use Eul's for that over Atos (most anything that can escape Feet->Atos can escape Feet->Eul's the same way). I also generally favor Treads over Arcanes in pubs. Skill order is variable largely for the same reasons as the support version. Stats are still taken at 2 and 4 because both Vortex and Chilling Touch don't get a lot of value in 1v1 lanes (you don't have enough damage on your own for Vortex to be worth it before 6, and self-only Chilling Touch with such a long CD isn't worth the mana). After that it depends a lot on the game whether Vortex or Touch are better. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
If this batch of changes are accepted (I'm mainly unsure about Luna, Meepo and maybe ET. Then I'll start the next batch of change post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399870 scroll to the bottom if you want to see which guides have been changed and when. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On February 28 2014 00:47 TheYango wrote: It's wrong, I think it might have been from the old Call of the Wild stats. Still, the other reasons for aura at 2 still apply. Eul's is gimmicky. It's cute the first time you play the hero for the Cold Feet+Eul's combo, but honestly with Atos in the game, there's not really a reason to use Eul's for that over Atos (most anything that can escape Feet->Atos can escape Feet->Eul's the same way). I also generally favor Treads over Arcanes in pubs. Skill order is variable largely for the same reasons as the support version. Stats are still taken at 2 and 4 because both Vortex and Chilling Touch don't get a lot of value in 1v1 lanes (you don't have enough damage on your own for Vortex to be worth it before 6, and self-only Chilling Touch with such a long CD isn't worth the mana). After that it depends a lot on the game whether Vortex or Touch are better. Those who can escape Atos cannot necessarily escape Eul's since it is a full disable, no? I like Eul's for the extra movement speed; sometimes not making Force Staff always an obligation, right? Will keep the build order the same then and amke support one much different. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On February 28 2014 01:15 Sn0_Man wrote: Force is useless on AA anyways. You have no mobility requirements it just lets you click it on other heroes. So both Eul's and Force Staff are pointless according to you and Yango? I don't know if that sounds right. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
If you aren't going Arcanes+Mek, AA really likes both of the stats on Force Staff. On February 28 2014 01:13 Torte de Lini wrote: Those who can escape Atos cannot necessarily escape Eul's since it is a full disable, no? I like Eul's for the extra movement speed; sometimes not making Force Staff always an obligation, right? Will keep the build order the same then and amke support one much different. No, because Cold Feet requires 4 seconds to stun and Eul's only lasts 2.5s, which always leaves enough time for Blink heroes to get out. You also waste 2-3 ticks of Cold Feet damage while they're invulnerable in Eul's while Atos doesn't waste any of the Cold Feet damage. | ||
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