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On October 25 2013 02:42 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 01:35 Chaosquo wrote:On October 24 2013 21:57 The Irate Turk wrote:From reddit: Thanks for your efforts! some comments: -with OD you usually max W first and not the E. -The author's ability notes for abaddon's curse of avernus don't match the skill build -You never really want to build an AC on meepo (or a mek). His damage comes from his poof, so the core items are (in no order) aghs, blink dagger, BOT, heart. A second heart would be better than an AC. A dagon 5 is always fun when you are crushing. -For ET, the build bulba used earlier this month vs alliance appears to be the one that is strongest. Max W and E skipping your ult and Q until both are level 4. Then you can put a point in Q at level 9 then ult at 10 and 11. Do not underestimate how powerful his passive is. I will check out some of the others, but thanks once again for your hard work  I disagree with almost all of this: - OD usually maxes E, because he can easily run out of mana if he gets bad luck. I would however move BKB to situational. - Abaddon skill description is fine, read it again. - Meepo does a ton of damage later with right clicks, and he doesnt have a good agi growth, making armor quite sought after. I would fix the intro of your guide, you dont even list tranqs and mek is situational. - Even if you go 0-4-4-0, you want to end up 2-4-4-1 on lvl 11. Since this is a middle guide, I would advocate this skill build and going phase-drum into utility items like bkb/hex/shiva. Some other comments: - Bat: He mostly relies on napalm stacks for last hits, and 900 gold for phase delays the blink force too much imo. - Bane: I would remove the soul ring, since it doesnt offer any combat stats, and this guide is for a support bane. - BM: I think this guide is most suited to dire offlane with ancients stacking, otherwise the soul ring is not that good. I would advocate to change this into a middle guide with bottle instead of soul ring and getting some early points into aura for better rune control (also remove the wards in this case and maybe add a gem and mention the interaction with hawk). - PA: I dont believe Bfury should be core on her, just phase drums bkb abyssal - Timbersaw: I would remove Platemail from Core, since he could also get hex after bloodstone. Also bot is usually the followup to bloodstone. Hello! - Thanks for your help! I'm not sure what you are referring to with Meepo. What would be the ideal items that I am missing in my guide? - And what are you referring too with the middle guide? - I like Soul Ring on Bane a lot considering how useful it is to spam your Life Sap, should I still remove it? I might put urn instead! - I am intended to make a middle guide for BeastMaster! - Why not BF on PA? Isn't it especially strong given her ultimate?
The items in your meepo guide are fine, I just meant the intro at the top of your guide is a bit outdated.
You are distinguishing between (side-)lane, middle and jungle guides and I believe BM is better in mid than on side lane. Thats why I suggest you just change the present BM guide title to middle and exchange soul ring for bottle.
I know how good soul ring bane is, but that build is mostly good for middle imo.
I think Bfury is kinda gimmicky, PA already does a lot of damage in the (early) mid game, she needs tools to help her apply that, hence movement speed, bkb or lockdown (abyssal).
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Hey!
I will update meepo now, is the skill build order correct? Might be a bit early to determine that, but still!
I'll take a look at BM next time, I still think side-BM should have its own suited guide as well though ):
Yeah, will replace soul ring with urn for bane
PA I still think is up for debate ):
++ add Aghanim's to Razor
++ Io Arcane boots
++ Rubick Ghost Scepter
++ Disruptor Aghanims
++ Fix Tinker's Build
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On October 25 2013 03:10 ChillyWI wrote:As discussed on Reddit... Spectre should have phase instead of treads and have drum as a core item. Drum provides the additional survivability needed plus the ability to participate in team fights much earlier (just needs boots, drum, diffusal). Faceless Void needs a Necrobook in his guide as a situational item. You can actually skip the battlefury and go crit + Necrobook to get him into team fights much earlier. It's still a great item mid-late game, though, especially if the enemy team has invis heroes or a lot of counter-push (not to mention they can scout Rosh now). edit: As an aside, I actually really like Soul Ring on Bane. It not only helps laning, but also guarantees you have enough mana mid game until you get those bigger items up. You can also often skip a bit of regen, depending on whether you'll need to use them on your carry or not.
Hey, thanks for posting this here! I'll take another look at Spectre. I like the idea of drums and phase, but maybe treads just cuts that all out for faster diffusal. I'm more inclined to side with you though as Spectre is perhaps one of the least heroes I play!
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I second phase drums on spectre, as it gives her more stats and mobility (shes melee after all) and makes last hitting a lot easier.
Void is another hero where BFury is situational, you can get a fast MoM and BKB and just try to force teamfights. Timewalk is way worse than Blink as a farming tool. I also think Mjolnir deserves a mention and Heaven Halberd shouldnt be in the guide.
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On October 25 2013 02:42 Torte de Lini wrote:
- Why not BF on PA? Isn't it especially strong given her ultimate?
The cleave is pretty small and you have to spend so much on regen. I don't think it is worth it at all considering you very rarely get double kill crits unless you have Magnus...but Magnus can Empower you anyway.
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Lalalaland34496 Posts
Battlefury is situationally a decent path to go down against certain teams. More often than not however you really should be taking advantage of PA's aggressive early/mid game and going for items like Phase/Drums/early BKB/etc.
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United States15275 Posts
On October 25 2013 03:18 ChillyWI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 03:11 Sn0_Man wrote:
Necrobook's terrible on void though... No, it's not. The summoned units work inside your Chronosphere. It's a core part of a mid-game build for Void, as opposed to a late-game build. Necrobook's buff and the changes to the Rosh timer make it even better. You get attack speed buff, much higher damage output, mana burn, and invis detection in an item that has a relatively easy build-up.
+1. The SEA server proved this.
Armlet/Mjolnir, Necronomicon, and Armlet/Drums should be inserted into the Faceless Void guide. I would argue that Armlet/Mjolnir is his best overall build and the Battlefury build should be pushed to a situational build in the current meta.
On October 25 2013 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
None of that is worth 5.3K on a carry (who's chronosphere does true sight anyway). Just buy a damage item and kill them. Midgame, if your ult isn't doing it with a 5.3K carry item its not doing it with a 5.3K necrobook either.
Necro only costs 2700 and you can start to solo push towers with Chronosphere with it. Upgrading Necro is entirely up to the user.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 25 2013 03:10 ChillyWI wrote:
edit: As an aside, I actually really like Soul Ring on Bane. It not only helps laning, but also guarantees you have enough mana mid game until you get those bigger items up. You can also often skip a bit of regen, depending on whether you'll need to use them on your carry or not.
If you need a Soul Ring to win lane as Bane, you need to work on your laning. The hero is flat-out a top 5 1v1 tournament near-perma-ban hero alongside shit like OD Skywrath and Broodmother. There are zero lanes outside those other ridiculous laners that you need a Soul Ring to dominate utterly, and beyond that it's a waste of 800 gold on a zero-combat-stat item.
If you're playing him as a support, it's even less compelling because to expect a support's budget to allow an 800 gold item that has 0 combat stats is just absurd.
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On October 25 2013 14:33 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 03:18 ChillyWI wrote:On October 25 2013 03:11 Sn0_Man wrote:
Necrobook's terrible on void though... No, it's not. The summoned units work inside your Chronosphere. It's a core part of a mid-game build for Void, as opposed to a late-game build. Necrobook's buff and the changes to the Rosh timer make it even better. You get attack speed buff, much higher damage output, mana burn, and invis detection in an item that has a relatively easy build-up. +1. The SEA server proved this. Armlet/Mjolnir, Necronomicon, and Armlet/Drums should be inserted into the Faceless Void guide. I would argue that Armlet/Mjolnir is his best overall build and the Battlefury build should be pushed to a situational build in the current meta. Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
None of that is worth 5.3K on a carry (who's chronosphere does true sight anyway). Just buy a damage item and kill them. Midgame, if your ult isn't doing it with a 5.3K carry item its not doing it with a 5.3K necrobook either. Necro only costs 2700 and you can start to solo push towers with Chronosphere with it. Upgrading Necro is entirely up to the user.
What exactly are you basing this on? "the SEA server" isnt specific enough.
Bfury is definitely situational but those items you are recommending... yeah. Mjollnir is situational at best (usually leave it at maelstrom until 6-slot) the rest i'd be furious if a void on my team purchased. Drums and armlet and necrobook... blech. Throwing out gold. I could go into a nice long dissertation on how DPS items stack multiplicatively and how drums are good for teamfight mobility which isn't a void issue and how armlet is pretty much just bad unless you are a strength carry with innate sustain.... but that seems unecessary.
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United States15275 Posts
On October 26 2013 05:54 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 14:33 CosmicSpiral wrote:On October 25 2013 03:18 ChillyWI wrote:On October 25 2013 03:11 Sn0_Man wrote:
Necrobook's terrible on void though... No, it's not. The summoned units work inside your Chronosphere. It's a core part of a mid-game build for Void, as opposed to a late-game build. Necrobook's buff and the changes to the Rosh timer make it even better. You get attack speed buff, much higher damage output, mana burn, and invis detection in an item that has a relatively easy build-up. +1. The SEA server proved this. Armlet/Mjolnir, Necronomicon, and Armlet/Drums should be inserted into the Faceless Void guide. I would argue that Armlet/Mjolnir is his best overall build and the Battlefury build should be pushed to a situational build in the current meta. On October 25 2013 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
None of that is worth 5.3K on a carry (who's chronosphere does true sight anyway). Just buy a damage item and kill them. Midgame, if your ult isn't doing it with a 5.3K carry item its not doing it with a 5.3K necrobook either. Necro only costs 2700 and you can start to solo push towers with Chronosphere with it. Upgrading Necro is entirely up to the user. What exactly are you basing this on? "the SEA server" isnt specific enough. Bfury is definitely situational but those items you are recommending... yeah. Mjollnir is situational at best (usually leave it at maelstrom until 6-slot) the rest i'd be furious if a void on my team purchased. Drums and armlet and necrobook... blech. Throwing out gold. I could go into a nice long dissertation on how DPS items stack multiplicatively and how drums are good for teamfight mobility which isn't a void issue and how armlet is pretty much just bad unless you are a strength carry with innate sustain.... but that seems unnecessary.
Necronomicon on Void was a build that become semi-popular in the SEA scene during the fall of 2012. It was oriented as a midgame carry build with significant pushing strength, substituting minions as the damage output and using Chronosphere as a zoning tool in the lane. You would get an early HoIW for the armor and health regen and build it into HotD alongside Necro. From there you would extend into Necro level 2 or disassemble HotD into Manta Style/Assault Cuirass.
Armlet/Mjolnir is his best build IMO. Armlet/Drums is the utility build when you need to survive in the midgame and your farming got slowed down in the early game. Necro sacrifices the passive late-game buildup for lane/tower pushing. Battlefury is your 4 protect 1 "I will barely be contributing to anything for 25-30 minutes" build.
Armlet is perhaps the most cost-efficient item Void can get in the midgame. He needs the health regeneration + armor as his Strength gain is trash and his Agility gain is subpar (20th out of all 34 Agility heroes). Unholy Strength synergizes well with Backtrack, lets him have more leeway with using Time Walk, and contributes a fair bit within Chronosphere (it takes 15 seconds for the HP drain to catch up to the health gain, and Chrono only lasts up to 5 for most cases).
It's not unnecessary. You are wrong about Armlet being only useful on Strength carries: you don't get Armlet purely for Unholy Strength in the first place.
Tell me about these Faceless Void item builds that you would recommend. DPS has never been his primary concern as a character within the entire context of a game.
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Hey guys I'm heading back from my vacation and so I will look over the recent discussion. Apply some changes I posted previously and work from there!
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Razor:
Removed Daedlus
Added Aghanim's Scepter
Added Description for Aghanim's Scepter, Unstable Current
Updated Descriptions for Eye of the Storm
IO:
Removed Tranquil Boots
Moved Soul Ring to Situational Items
Added Arcane Boots to Core Items
Rubick:
Added Ghost Scepter to Situational
Added Description for Ghost Scepter
Tinker
Updated Skill Build (Maxing March of the Machines first): QEEQEQEQRWRWWWR
Spectre
Removed Treads
Added Phase Boots and Drums of Endurance as Core Items
Phantom Assassin
Moved Battlefury to Situational Items
Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Cranium Basher to Core Items
Removed Helm of Dominator (Satanic is still in Extension Items)
Faceless Void
Moved Battlefury to Situational Items
Added Armlet to Situational Items
Removed Heaven's Halberd
Disruptor
Added Aghanim's Scepter to Situational Items
all guides are linked with their changes above
Still to Verify
Puck:
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Puck Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
Added Situational Items tab
Moved Ghost Scepter to Situational Items
Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational items
Added Linken's Sphere to Situational Items (to verify validity)
Added Descriptions for Ghost Scepter, Eul's Scepter of Divinity, Linken's Sphere, Mekansm, Scythe of Vyse, Shiva's Guard
Batrider:
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Batrider Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
Moved Magic Wand from Early Game to Core Items (after Phase Boots)
Removed Arcane Boots from Situational Items
Removed Tranquil Boots from Core Items
Added Phase Boots to Core Items (to verify validity)
Added Linken's Sphere to Situational Items (to verify validity)
Added Descriptions for Iron Branch, Black King Bar, Eul's Scepter of Divinity, Linken's Sphere, Tranquil Boots
Skywrath Mage:
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Skywrath Mage Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
Added Mantle of Intelligence to Starting Items (to verify validity)
Removed Bloodstone from Situational Items
Moved Rod of Atos from Core items to Situational Items (to verify validity)
Removed Orchid Malevolence from Situational Items
Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items (to verify validity)
Moved Veil of Discord to Core items
Added Aghanim's Scepter as Extension Items
Added Descriptions for Iron Branch, Aghanim's Scepter and Shiva's Guard.
Skeleton King:
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Skeleton King Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
Changed Skeleton King's build: Q, Stats, QEQRQWEEREWWWR (to verify validity)
Removed Iron Branch
Added Descriptions to Stats
Treant Protector:
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Skeleton King Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
Added Descriptions for Shiva's Guard, Pipe of Insight, Linken's Sphere
Added Urn of Shadows to Early Game (to verify validity)
Added Description for Urn of Shadows
Removed Luxury Items section
Moved Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items
Removed Assault Cuirass
Added Linken's Sphere to Extension Items (to verify validity)
Meepo: (to verify validity)
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Meepo Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
Removed Iron Branch and Vladmir's Offering
Updated Descriptions for Aghanim's Scepter, Mekansm, Ethreal Blade, Earthbind, Geostrike and United We Stand
New Skill Build: QWWRWEWQQQREEE (Max Poof, one in Geostrike at 6, Max Earthbind)
Lycanthrope:
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Lycanthrope Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
Added two Iron Branches to Starting Items (to verify validity)
Updated Descriptions for Skull Basher, Desolator and Assault Cuirass
Brewmaster: (to verify validity)
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Brewmaster Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
Moved Drums of Endurance from Situational Items to Core Items (to verify validity)
Moved Blink Dagger from Core Items to Situational Items (to verify validity)
Added Butterfly to Extension Items
Removed Iron Branch and Shiva's Guard
Updated Descriptions for: Aghanim's Scepter, Blink Dagger, Drums of Endurance, Assault Cuirass, Thunder Clap, Drunken Haze and Primal Split.
Slardar: (to verify validity)
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Slardar Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
Removed Healing Salve
Added Blink Dagger as Situational Items
Added Descriptions for Medallion of Courage and Blink Dagger
Invoker: (to verify validity)
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Invoker Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
Removed Iron Branch (to verify validity)
Silencer: (to verify validity)
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Silencer Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
New Skill Build: EQEQEREQQWRWWW (Max E then Q then W) (to verify validity)
Updated Descriptions for Glaives of Wisdom
Tusk:
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Tusk Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
Removed Shadow Blade
Added Desolater to Core Items (to verify validity)
Updated Descriptions for Desolator, Frozen Sigil
Ogre Magi: (to verify validity)
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Ogre Magi Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
Updated Descriptions for Mekansm, Drums of Endurance, Rod of Atos, Veil of Discord
Bloodseeker: (to verify validity)
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Bloodseeker Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
Removed Shadow Blade, Removed Diffusal Blade, Power Treads
Added Descriptions for Sange & Yasha and Desolator
New Skill Build:
Ursa: (to verify validity)
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Ursa Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
Removed Tranquil Boots from Early Game
Added Tango to Early Game
Removed Scythe of Vyse
to add: Ursa Lane Guide
Dazzle:
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Dazzle Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
Moved Soul Ring to Situational
Added Clarity, 3x Iron Branches and Tango to Starting Items
Moved Pipe of Insight to Situational Items
Added Sentry Ward to Core Items
Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items
Removed Medallion of Courage
New Skill Build: WEQQQRQWWWREEER (Max Q, One in W and E before 6, max W then E) (to verify validity)
Naga Siren: (to verify validity)
Added tag 6.79 - Standard Naga Siren Build in the title.
Added Tab: "Contributors" to add some credit to major contributors
Moved Mekansm to Core Items (to verify validity)
Removed Quelling Blade from Starting items
Added Clarity, Healing Salve and Ring of Protection to Starting Items (to verify validity)
Removed Poor Man's Shield, Daedlus and Butterfly (to verify validity)
Added Ring of Aquila to Early Game (to verify validity)
Added Urn of Shadows, Heaven's Halberd and Medallion of Courage to Situational (to verify validity)
Moved Assault Cuirass to Extension Items (to verify validity)
Updated Descriptions for Urn of Shadows, Medallion of Courage, Assault Cuirass and Manta Style
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why remove blink dagger from rubick? I don't play Rubick, but a few of my friends love Blink Dagger on him.
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On October 29 2013 00:58 Whole wrote:
why remove blink dagger from rubick? I don't play Rubick, but a few of my friends love Blink Dagger on him.
I agree it's definitely a good situational item. I think with the aghs upgrade though, you no longer need blink to steal a lot of spells (that's my guess as to why blink would be removed).
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Blinking in and getting ravage/Song/Blackhole or even just blink->lift is a million times better than like stealing anchor smash then 5s later getting powershot or w/e. Its not comparable.
Aghs is amazing but Blink or force (or both) are still far more important on rubick than aghanims.
(at a level where teamfights have any semblance of coordination and players understand how to position a blink rubick).
If you want I can discuss the pros and cons of force vs blink but blink is wayyyyy better if you can farm it. Force is basically the "well I have 1K unreliable gold that I need to spend better buy half my force" item. There are definitely situations where, after blink or force, you want the other one over an aghs.
TL;DR: Blink is core on rubick, with force situational and a description like: "If you are having a hard time saving for blink, buy force parts instead"
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United States47024 Posts
Agha is better on a core Rubick, Blink is more realistic for a Support.
The spells you steal aren't free. If you're stealing 200-300 mana ultimates, you need a pretty big mana pool to support multiple Spell Steals (Telekinesis, Fade Bolt, 2 Spell Steals and 3 stolen spells can run close to a thousand mana spent in 5 seconds, depending on which spells you stole). A naked Agha on a support Rubick isn't going to be that good--it needs to be paired with other mana items to be functionally useful, whereas Blink is immediately good on its own.
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Even on a core rubick I'd take a 15 min blink over a 15 min aghs. Its so impossible to deny blink rubick the spells he wants, plus blink lift is among the best initiations in the game.
I'll admit though, 5s spell steal is some crazy shit.
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I had Force staff on Rubick as a core and felt, even with a note on it, that Blink Dagger was a bit of a redundancy, especially since we're pushing Aghs as part of his extension choice.
So here's his build now:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=128927319
We have drums and force staff, a lot maneuverability and wasn't sure if Blink Dagger was worth sticking in if we wanted to keep item numbers at a minimum.
I think the item-build may need a general overhaul, this is a bit of an older Rubick support build from before.
On October 29 2013 01:02 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2013 00:58 Whole wrote:
why remove blink dagger from rubick? I don't play Rubick, but a few of my friends love Blink Dagger on him. I agree it's definitely a good situational item. I think with the aghs upgrade though, you no longer need blink to steal a lot of spells (that's my guess as to why blink would be removed).
This as well, I felt putting both Blink Dagger and Aghanim's was a bit overwhelming of item costs.
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I've added Blink Dagger back on Situational Items for Rubick
I've added Aghanim's on Disruptor. Personally, I wouldn't get it; but I can see its worth. It's on Situational Items
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We just hit 3 million subscriptions! Lifestealer, Nyx and Leshrac are amongst the most popular with Skywrath Mage as 4th!
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