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Pretty sure there was discussion about whole phoenix thing just before 6.87 came not sure tho.
Personally i would say maxing ray is must as pos 4 or 5, as offlaner u need to read the lane if u can get more out of maxed spirits or maxed ray.
Mid phoenix should be removed and keep support and off (iirc this is already planned to happen after the change to the whole transition to different guide naming etc)
E: For the Void Vanguard from the offlane, only problem i feel with the vanguard is the fact that u get fairly late from the offlane if u are 1v3 or 1v2 hard lane and it doesnt really help ur team to fight (compared to vlads f.e.)
I like the item and especially from the safelane, but from the offlane not so much.
After all u aint Bristleback who wants to tank everything, u are there for the initiation in the first place.
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On May 14 2016 23:18 prismazure wrote:
So I registered here. Since I was the one to propose you the remake the whole Faceless Void build, I'd have some other ideas to make it better.
For starting items: still fine for 6.87. nothing to change.
But now there's an item I'd like to point out: Vanguard. To be fair, with this item, Time Walk and Time Dilation, it becomes very hard for Void to die. It gives him a lot of damage block on top of tank stats that really helps his new initiator role.
Would it be better to add it as another situational item? Or put Aghs in situational and vanguard in the core.
Obviously upgrading it into crimson armor if the team needs it, but it's not necessary to add as Void needs other items.
"Aghanim's Scepter no longer increases Chronosphere's duration from 4/4.5/5 to 4/5/6"
Which definitely makes it less worthwhile than it used to be. I don't think it's worth being core anymore as it only decreases cooldown.
About Blink Dagger. With the Time Walk range buff it seems to have become less picked, but imo should stay core, Time Walk can't be enough to initiate.
Situational: fine, Echo Sabre is up for debate thought. "Time Lock no longer deals double damage inside Chronosphere" so is it worth picking up this item anyways?
Extension: BKB is good, MKB too, for Refreshers thought, I don't know. It's very, very expensive and hard to optimize. You will also need abysmal mana pool to use it. 975 mana to be exact with the chronospheres. You will need some items like Aghs/Sabre if you wanna have enough mana for it. Up to you.
I'd swap Mjollnir for Manta Style. More all-rounded stats for a lesser cost, debuff removing as Time Walk doesn't do this and illusions can do more damage than chain lightning.
There's another item that I am wanting to test: Radiance. It looks like it could work on Void. Got to test.
Great you registered!
We can add Abyssal Blade to Extension Item.
Echo Sabre is decent stats for Faceless Void, it'll probably be removed if I don't see it in Epicenter
Radiance is a difficult item to get in the offlane. Even more unrealistic for newer players in my opinion.
On May 15 2016 01:56 TheGlitchMob wrote:
thoughts on a support phoenix guide? right now theres lane (offlane im assuming?) and middle.
also for skill build, everyone seems to be maxing sun ray, perhaps u should look at that
I will do this today.
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United States15275 Posts
The only thing missing for the offlane build is Infused Raindrop for Early Game items (it is indeed broken for the offlane). All other conversation is an argument about whether the hero should transition to a tertiary core or stick to the utility initiator role. And that depends on how much farm you get in the laning stage.
Echo Sabre is underwhelming. Offlane Void doesn't itemize in a way that makes the double-hit useful, and the mana regen comes at a point where it's unnecessary.
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Have you considered putting a "Your name could be here! Sponsor this guide: (patreon link)" in the ability notes for Attribute Bonus in each of your un-sponsored guides?
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On May 15 2016 08:09 Buckyman wrote:
Have you considered putting a "Your name could be here! Sponsor this guide: (patreon link)" in the ability notes for Attribute Bonus in each of your un-sponsored guides?
Sort of. I was fearful that it would turn people off.
Patreon would be nice, especially while I am between jobs, but I still am 100% uncomfortable with the idea (hence why I haven't withdrawn any of it from the platform).
On May 15 2016 06:27 CosmicSpiral wrote:
The only thing missing for the offlane build is Infused Raindrop for Early Game items (it is indeed broken for the offlane). All other conversation is an argument about whether the hero should transition to a tertiary core or stick to the utility initiator role. And that depends on how much farm you get in the laning stage.
Echo Sabre is underwhelming. Offlane Void doesn't itemize in a way that makes the double-hit useful, and the mana regen comes at a point where it's unnecessary.
Not sure how Infused Raindrops would fit in the current build:
PMS -> Power Treads -> Iron Talon -> Magic Wand
I definitely want to start adding it to a lot of heroes now, it is severely underused
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Echo Sabre Void sort-of makes sense after blink dagger, for blinking on top of people when Chronosphere is on cooldown.
On May 15 2016 10:25 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2016 08:09 Buckyman wrote:
Have you considered putting a "Your name could be here! Sponsor this guide: (patreon link)" in the ability notes for Attribute Bonus in each of your un-sponsored guides? Sort of. I was fearful that it would turn people off. Patreon would be nice, especially while I am between jobs, but I still am 100% uncomfortable with the idea (hence why I haven't withdrawn any of it from the platform).
Who do you think would object to it, and why? In particular, do you think you would lose contributors over it?
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United States15275 Posts
On May 15 2016 10:25 Torte de Lini wrote:
Not sure how Infused Raindrops would fit in the current build:
PMS -> Power Treads -> Iron Talon -> Magic Wand
I definitely want to start adding it to a lot of heroes now, it is severely underused
Your current opening build is 2x Branches + Stout + 2x Fire + Tango (575). I would ditch the Branches and save up the money for fast PMS -> Boots -> Raindrop -> Talon. Stick might be fine but Wand feels a bit greedy. Treads should be delayed until the end of the early game build.
On May 15 2016 10:54 Buckyman wrote:
Echo Sabre Void sort-of makes sense after blink dagger, for blinking on top of people when Chronosphere is on cooldown.
Most heroes that want Echo Sabre get something guaranteed from the first two hits; that reliability makes it work on Sven, ganking Tiny, Chaos Knight, Slark, etc. For Void, you're getting the chance to proc a PRD-based bash that starts on 8.5%. It's also an item that should give you a huge advantage when Echo Strike activates, and I can't say it does that for Void.
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I've bought it on him. It's better than you're making it out to be, but it has no place in the guide because it's for when your cores are ass and you're huge and you're making a rightclick transition.
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On May 15 2016 05:51 Torte de Lini wrote:
Great you registered!
We can add Abyssal Blade to Extension Item.
Echo Sabre is decent stats for Faceless Void, it'll probably be removed if I don't see it in Epicenter
Radiance is a difficult item to get in the offlane. Even more unrealistic for newer players in my opinion.
Don't add Abyssal Blade for Void. The bash doesn't work with Time Lock, it would be a waste.
Since you removed Echo Sabre thought, Vanguard could replace it in situational.
And yeah, Echo Sabre is too core-ish, it wouldn't be very useful on offlane, especially since 6.87 changes.
--
So, since Drow is to test, I wanna talk a bit about this build. It's badly organized.
Starting Items: looks fine to me.
Early Game: Put the morbid mask here, not in core.
Core: Too many items... morbid in early game. Replace Silver Edge by Shadow Blade.
Silver Edge is too expensive to be core plus, the break is quite situational.
And the utility part of the build is useless imo.. None of the other builds has it. Replace with situational items.
So for me the new build would be:
Starting: nothing to change
Early Game: Wraith Band, Boots, Aquila, Morbid Mask
Core: Treads, Dragon, Helm, Shadow Blade
Situational: MKB, SnY, Hurricane Pike, Silver Edge
Extension: BKB, Butterfly, Satanic, Manta
Now I wanna know what you think.
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Probably extension aghs as well, but I agree that's better.
Torte if you could put a link to the guide in your "reevaluate/to test" notes that would make it easier to give input.
EDIT: why in the world does she have utility tome and TP? That is such a waste of space.
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On May 15 2016 10:54 Buckyman wrote:Echo Sabre Void sort-of makes sense after blink dagger, for blinking on top of people when Chronosphere is on cooldown. Show nested quote +On May 15 2016 10:25 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 15 2016 08:09 Buckyman wrote:
Have you considered putting a "Your name could be here! Sponsor this guide: (patreon link)" in the ability notes for Attribute Bonus in each of your un-sponsored guides? Sort of. I was fearful that it would turn people off. Patreon would be nice, especially while I am between jobs, but I still am 100% uncomfortable with the idea (hence why I haven't withdrawn any of it from the platform). Who do you think would object to it, and why? In particular, do you think you would lose contributors over it?
No one would openly object, but I hate feeling like a shill.
On May 15 2016 12:28 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2016 10:25 Torte de Lini wrote:
Not sure how Infused Raindrops would fit in the current build:
PMS -> Power Treads -> Iron Talon -> Magic Wand
I definitely want to start adding it to a lot of heroes now, it is severely underused Your current opening build is 2x Branches + Stout + 2x Fire + Tango (575). I would ditch the Branches and save up the money for fast PMS -> Boots -> Raindrop -> Talon. Stick might be fine but Wand feels a bit greedy. Treads should be delayed until the end of the early game build. Show nested quote +On May 15 2016 10:54 Buckyman wrote:
Echo Sabre Void sort-of makes sense after blink dagger, for blinking on top of people when Chronosphere is on cooldown. Most heroes that want Echo Sabre get something guaranteed from the first two hits; that reliability makes it work on Sven, ganking Tiny, Chaos Knight, Slark, etc. For Void, you're getting the chance to proc a PRD-based bash that starts on 8.5%. It's also an item that should give you a huge advantage when Echo Strike activates, and I can't say it does that for Void.
Is anyone buying Echo Sabre right now in pub or pro games?
I'll update FV with that early game now.
On May 16 2016 06:26 Belisarius wrote:
Probably extension aghs as well, but I agree that's better.
Torte if you could put a link to the guide in your "reevaluate/to test" notes that would make it easier to give input.
EDIT: why in the world does she have utility tome and TP? That is such a waste of space.
Ok
I'm trying to promote more tome purchases
On May 15 2016 18:38 prismazure wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2016 05:51 Torte de Lini wrote:
Great you registered!
We can add Abyssal Blade to Extension Item.
Echo Sabre is decent stats for Faceless Void, it'll probably be removed if I don't see it in Epicenter
Radiance is a difficult item to get in the offlane. Even more unrealistic for newer players in my opinion. Don't add Abyssal Blade for Void. The bash doesn't work with Time Lock, it would be a waste. Since you removed Echo Sabre thought, Vanguard could replace it in situational. And yeah, Echo Sabre is too core-ish, it wouldn't be very useful on offlane, especially since 6.87 changes. -- So, since Drow is to test, I wanna talk a bit about this build. It's badly organized. Starting Items: looks fine to me. Early Game: Put the morbid mask here, not in core. Core: Too many items... morbid in early game. Replace Silver Edge by Shadow Blade. Silver Edge is too expensive to be core plus, the break is quite situational. And the utility part of the build is useless imo.. None of the other builds has it. Replace with situational items. So for me the new build would be: Starting: nothing to change Early Game: Wraith Band, Boots, Aquila, Morbid Mask Core: Treads, Dragon, Helm, Shadow Blade Situational: MKB, SnY, Hurricane Pike, Silver Edge Extension: BKB, Butterfly, Satanic, Manta Now I wanna know what you think.
I will remove Tome from Utility Items. TP has a special value/use/trick for Drow.
Will update SB/SE
I can add Situational Items tab.
Items like MKB, Hurricane Pike, etc. are larger items that don't fit in with Situational Items, which are considered to be more "in-betweeners" or replacements from Extension Items (e.g. Manta Style/Sange & Yasha).
Butterfly is still good for both the damage and movement speed.
I will add MKB
and adjust the rest as suggested.
Should be updated by the time you read this.
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United States15275 Posts
On May 16 2016 10:44 Torte de Lini wrote:
Is anyone buying Echo Sabre right now in pub or pro games?
I'll update FV with that early game now.
I've only seen Sabre picks on offlane Void in the American scene, particularly Bulba. CIS seems to have embraced the Vlads -> Blink -> Manta -> Diffusal build. No clue about China/SEA. Seen a fair share of it in pubs but I'm not a fan unless you are specifically doing a racecar build (for the carry role).
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Is Drums on Spectre still core? The str and agi nerfs are pretty big IMO
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Phase Urn Wand Vanguard seems a lot more appealing i agree, whether we want to go diffu manta or radi after vanguard idk.
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Maxing aura with drow is situational at best in pubs because of how line up is build (its really not that simple to convince ur team to pick 5 range line up to get most out of drow aura) so most of the time its more reliable to max frost arrow for higher kill potential than maxing aura for 1-2 heroes (aura doesnt scale that well so u really have to have multiple heroes to get most out higher lvls of aura).
For Mirana, if u go 4-1-1-1, i would max out leap over arrow especially with the current right click build where u get a lot out of increased attack speed with maelstorm and diffusal procs. Problem with the build right now is the fact that u are trying to build right clicker without reliable farm (because it seems like this build starts out as a pos4 and tries to get kills to catch up in farm which doesnt always work out). I would rather see build be either straight out core mirana or support mirana, or possibly both in separate guides.
Beastmaster seems pretty okey, i havent seen Medallion/SR beastmaster forever, maybe take that off? Maybe move aghs to situational aswell because there is blink in core already, they kinda serve same purpose.
Talked about Phoenix earlier.
ET and Brood aint heroes for me, no idea.
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EPT
