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On May 17 2016 14:03 Belisarius wrote: If you're offlane you choose between ray and spirits depending on whether you can win the lane with spirits.
Since half the point of offlane phoenix is to screw with the carry using spirits, I think you should max spirits. Or at least 1-2-0 into 1-2-x-1.
Yeah I agree with this. 1-2-x is pretty nice, but it may just be best to keep the guide as 1-4-0; the 3rd point in spirits is still pretty useful and if you are offlane phoenix you're looking to pester the carry, hit 6 then go and have a teamfight skirmish and get off a good supernova to gain a dominating control of the game, or at least get a kill from it to jump further ahead. Basically like Tidehunter but with burning fire everywhere. Level 3/4 spirits is probably better for that to secur a good egg, but maybe not.
Midas is still good for offlane, maybe even more so now because if you go spirits first you want 11 fast to get Sun Ray online.
Personally I'd also...
- Rod of Atos - Octarine Core
+ Ghost Scepter (situational) + Refresher Orb or Hex (Extension)
Though there's a ton of items you could add to Phoenix's builds (Pipe, Hex, Aether Lens, Lotus Orb, pretty much anything with an active) so it's fine not to have them all of whatever, but I really don't like Octarine. It usually doesn't give you additional spells during a fight and you shouldn't have trouble surviving fights so the sustain is a bit of a waste. The best appeal of it is being able to supernova off cooldown sooner, but you could also do that with RFO and have the option to double supernova in a fight (not to mention double Shiva's).
To me Rod of Atos is only useful when the rest of your team is terrible AND has no disables but you're awesome and you need to do all the work yourself and you need to do it NOW before you can afford Shivas or Hex. Which I guess could mean it's useful for the guide, but it's really really situational.
Ghost scepter is good because well it's just good. It keeps you from having to supernova early if a melee gets in your face and most heroes can't just stand there and wait it out against you if you have sun ray going or it gives you time to dive away. It also has an extra synergy that you can jump into supernova if taking magic damage is suddenly a concern. It's a pretty valuable item in terms of giving Phoenix the survivability you need. Especially against some of the potentially problematic heroes like Clinkz or Ursa; you can Ghost Scepter during their IAS boost then fire spirit -> supernova.
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On May 17 2016 17:49 ahswtini wrote: idk why ppl are saying mirana aghs is a meme build idk. What's the technical definition of a meme build anyway. imo it's like radi alc; it dramatically changes the way the hero functions. I probably would have called radi alc a meme build when it first came up as well.
Aghs might turn out to be strong enough that it makes core mirana a thing again, or it might turn out to be a pub fad that isn't worth picking in real games. Either way, as I said, Torte should look at using it.
On May 17 2016 18:42 prismazure wrote: Why Midas on Slark? I feel like it's a waste. I think it's fine in situational.
On May 17 2016 19:27 ahswtini wrote: nor is the new abyssal an "extension" item on slark. it is highly situational, and in those cases (where there are very elusive heroes that u need to control such as antimage or ember) often u would only buy basher and upgrade to abyssal later. im also worried about the ordering of the items in the extension section. it implies that moonshards should be bought before silver edge or skadi. replace abyssal with mkb, and put basher into situational I agree. Abyssal is situational on a lot of heroes where it was previously core/extension, and slark is definitely one of them.
afaik Torte doesn't pay any attention to the ordering of items. I think we should, because I think an order of purchase is strongly implied whether we intend it to be or not, but currently we don't care.
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Core items are in order Extension items are ordered by price because the original ordering process caused a lot of discussion and debate and didn't get resolved.
Saves me time and hassle for items that can be vary by value/priority.
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Phoenix finally changed, it's Lane and Offlane
Lane will change to "support" later on
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On May 17 2016 22:36 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2016 18:42 prismazure wrote: Why Midas on Slark? I feel like it's a waste. Yes, how so? It is sometimes built in pub and comp. games. It is not an unusual buy.,
Well.. only brings attack speed, the active benefits more farming heroes and late game carries whilst Slark is a ganker, and delay the rest of your build by a huge margin. Not optimal at all.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
cuz slark wants to get online and start hunting heroes with shadowblade asap
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SoCal8910 Posts
plus, midas has been really weak for a while now, unless you see an enormous benefit from hitting level 16 ASAP. the issue, lately, is that if you use that midas to build a big lead while the rest of your team is simply average, you're actually a liability because not only are you super-leveled compared to the enemy..but you're highest on networth by far and away. you're basically a walking sack of gold and xp.
so you'll see heroes like wraith king greatly benefit from midas so that he can hit level 16 for the CD on reincarnation. since he has reincarnation up so frequently, it becomes difficult to kill him and fork over that massive lead so easily. some ppl see slark this way too where pact + ulti makes it difficult to kill you and reap the massive bounty. alternatively, you'll see supports like ancient apparition get it because his ult needs to be maxed out asap to have maximum impact.
most ppl prefer shadowblade as soon as possible, but in the instance where shadowblade and solo pick offs are not going to get you anywhere, midas + blink is how I've seen him built by people like comeh. however, he noted that he only did that in an organized environment because he could reliably get his team to initiate with him after the blink pounce.
and the people using your guide are not comeh and are not in an organized team environment where everyone is on the same page. IMO midas is definitely situational on slark.
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On May 19 2016 00:40 ahswtini wrote: cuz slark wants to get online and start hunting heroes with shadowblade asap Not really. Not since like 3 patches ago, or against certain lineups now. Shadowblade first is pretty average most games at the moment.
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On May 19 2016 05:10 BluemoonSC wrote: plus, midas has been really weak for a while now, unless you see an enormous benefit from hitting level 16 ASAP. the issue, lately, is that if you use that midas to build a big lead while the rest of your team is simply average, you're actually a liability because not only are you super-leveled compared to the enemy..but you're highest on networth by far and away. you're basically a walking sack of gold and xp.
so you'll see heroes like wraith king greatly benefit from midas so that he can hit level 16 for the CD on reincarnation. since he has reincarnation up so frequently, it becomes difficult to kill him and fork over that massive lead so easily. some ppl see slark this way too where pact + ulti makes it difficult to kill you and reap the massive bounty. alternatively, you'll see supports like ancient apparition get it because his ult needs to be maxed out asap to have maximum impact.
most ppl prefer shadowblade as soon as possible, but in the instance where shadowblade and solo pick offs are not going to get you anywhere, midas + blink is how I've seen him built by people like comeh. however, he noted that he only did that in an organized environment because he could reliably get his team to initiate with him after the blink pounce.
and the people using your guide are not comeh and are not in an organized team environment where everyone is on the same page. IMO midas is definitely situational on slark.
So you agree.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LetyZMX.png) new bug
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For mirana support I recommend going arcane -> mek -> blink -> greaves instead of getting euls
In general Midas is stronger than ever since you get 250% experience from the ranged creep. You dont need to leave the lane to get the benefit of killing larger creeps.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On May 19 2016 06:49 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2016 00:40 ahswtini wrote: cuz slark wants to get online and start hunting heroes with shadowblade asap Not really. Not since like 3 patches ago, or against certain lineups now. Shadowblade first is pretty average most games at the moment. yeah, this is pretty wrong
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SoCal8910 Posts
Birdie has his mind in organized DOTA.
I think in pubs right now you want heroes that can fight often. Shadow blade takes advantage of the pub atmosphere. Like I said above slark is a midas hero without a doubt but only situationally against those lineups IMO.
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Shadowblade basically cripples the enemy supports so its not a bad choice considering the targeted demographic.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On May 19 2016 16:25 Spicy_Curry wrote: For mirana support I recommend going arcane -> mek -> blink -> greaves instead of getting euls
In general Midas is stronger than ever since you get 250% experience from the ranged creep. You dont need to leave the lane to get the benefit of killing larger creeps.
disagree with midas on support mirana. she is barely a support hero as it is because her stun isn't reliable and you don't gain anything that completes the hero all that much quicker.. if you're gonna transition into a core, perhaps this is appropriate, tho.
additionally, her aoe nuke is fantastic at killing creeps in addition to having arrow to snag a free creep from some idiot farming right there
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On May 20 2016 03:39 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2016 16:25 Spicy_Curry wrote: For mirana support I recommend going arcane -> mek -> blink -> greaves instead of getting euls
In general Midas is stronger than ever since you get 250% experience from the ranged creep. You dont need to leave the lane to get the benefit of killing larger creeps. disagree with midas on support mirana. she is barely a support hero as it is because her stun isn't reliable and you don't gain anything that completes the hero all that much quicker.. if you're gonna transition into a core, perhaps this is appropriate, tho. additionally, her aoe nuke is fantastic at killing creeps in addition to having arrow to snag a free creep from some idiot farming right there pretty sure he never suggested midas for mirana support but i do agree with u
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SoCal8910 Posts
ah okay, I suppose those were two separate thoughts. Ive seen "support" miranas pick up midases before so I figured they were related lol
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Situational is fine for Midas.
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Alchemist (Middle) Added Faerie Fire to Starting Items Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items Added Shiva's Guard to Extension Items Added Moon Shard to Extension Items Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items Removed Mjollnir Removed Heart of Tarrasque Removed Blink Dagger Removed Iron Branch
Lifestealer (Jungle) Added Echo Sabre to Core Items Added Desolator to Extension Items Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items Removed Wind Lace
Lifestealer (Lane) Added Echo Sabre to Situational Items Added Desolator to Extension Items Removed Wind Lace
Faceless Void Added Infused Raindrop to Early Game Removed Iron Branches x2 Removed Magic Wand Removed Echo Sabre
Timbersaw Added Blink Dagger to Extension Items
Ancient Apparition (Middle) Ancient Apparition (Lane) Created New Tab: "Situational Items" Added Urn of Shadows to Early Game Added Octarine Core to Extension Items Moved Hand of Midas to "Situational Items" Moved Veil of Discord to "Situational Items" Moved Rod of Atos to "Situational Items" Moved Glimmer Cape to "Situational Items"
Tinker Added Aether Lens to Core Items Moved Bloodstone to Extension Items Removed Shiva's Guard Removed Eul's Scepter of Divinity Removed Boots of Speed - Level 2
Doom (Jungle) New Skill Build: Q W E W W R W Q Q Q R E E E R (1. Scorched Earth 2. Devour 3. Infernal Blade) Added Mekansm to Core Items Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items Moved Blade Mail to Situational Items Removed Tranquil Boots Removed Silver Edge Removed Drums of Endurance
Doom (Lane) New Skill Build: Q W E W W R W Q Q Q R E E E R (1. Scorched Earth 2. Devour 3. Infernal Blade) Added Ring of Protection to Starting Items Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items Added Iron Talon to Core Items Added Shadow Blade to Core Items Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items Moved Vladmir's Offering to Extension Items Moved Silver Edge to Extension Items Removed Phase Boots Removed Drums of Endurance Removed Refresher Orb Removed Enchanted Mango
Spectre Created New Tab: "Core - Early Fight" Added Phase Boots to "Core - Ganking" Added Drums of Endurance to "Core - Ganking" Added Diffusal Blade - Level 1 to "Core - Ganking" Added Manta Style to "Core - Ganking" Moved Manta Style to Core Items
Huskar Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items
Drow Ranger Created New Tab: "Situational Items" Added Sange & Yasha to "Situational Items" Added Monkey King Bar to Extension Items Moved Morbid Mask to Early Game Moved Silver Edge to "Situational Items" Removed Tome of Knowledge Removed Helm of the Dominator
Razor Added Infused Raindrop to Early Game Added Linken's Sphere to Situational Items Added Shiva's Guard to Extension Items Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items Removed Iron Branch Removed Faerie Fire Removed Boots of Travel Removed Magic Wand Removed Refresher Orb Removed Aghanim's Scepter
Axe (Lane)
Axe (Jungle) Created New Tab: "Utility Items" Added Infused Raindrop to Core Items Added Tome of Experience to "Utility Items" Added Infused Raindrop to "Utility Items" Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items" Removed Wind Lace
Elder Titan (Lane) New Skill Build: W Q Q W Q R Q E E E R E W W R (1. Natural Order 2. Echo Stomp 3. Astral Spirit) Created New Tab: "Utility Items" Added Observer Ward to "Utility Items" Added Sentry Ward to "Utility Items" Added Dust of Appearance to "Utility Items" Added Smoke of Deceit to "Utility Items" Added Tome of Experience to "Utility Items" Added Veil of Discord to Extension Items
Elder Titan (Middle) New Skill Build: W E E Q E R E W W W R Q Q Q R (1. Natural Order 2. Astral Spirit 3. Echo Stomp) Added Phase Boots to Core Items Added Echo Sabre to Core Items Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items Moved Blade Mail to Extension Items Removed Power Treads Removed Heart of Tarrasque
Slark (Lane)
Slark (Middle) Added Quelling Blade to Early Game Added Hand of Midas to Situational Items Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items Removed Skull Basher
Riki Added Faerie Fire x2 to Starting Items Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items Moved Vladmir's Offering to Extension Items Removed Healing Salve Removed Echo Sabre Removed Skull Basher Removed Daedalus
Phantom Assassin Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items Removed Skull Basher
Slardar Created New Tab: "Early Game" Added Iron Branch x2 to Starting Items Added Observer Ward to Starting Items Added Boots of Speed to Early Game Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items Added Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items Moved Iron Talon to "Early Game" Moved Armlet of Mordiggan to Core Items Moved Echo Sabre to Situational Items Removed Power Treads Removed Blight Stone Removed Enchanted Mango
Sven Added Armlet of Mordiggan to Situational Items
Juggernaut Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items Removed Skull Basher
Omniknight Moved Aether Lens to Core Items Removed Mekansm
Broodmother Added Quelling Blade to Early Game Added Phase Boots to Core Items Added Diffusal Blade - Level 2 to Situational Items Added Manta Style to Extension Items Added Bloodthorn to Extension Items Added Solar Crest to Extension Items Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items Removed Clarity Removed Faerie Fire Removed Power Treads Removed Monkey King Bar Removed Desolator
Viper New Skill Build: Q W Q E E R E E Q W R W Q W R (1. Corrosive Skin 2. Nethertoxin 3. Poison Attack) Added Dragon Lance to Core Items Added Hurricane Pike to Extension Items Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Medusa New Skill Build: Added Dragon Lance to Situational Items Added Bloodthorn to Extension Items Moved Eye of Skadi to Extension Items Removed Drums of Endurance Removed Divine Rapier Removed Boots of Travel - Level 2
Dragon Knight (Middle) Dragon Knight (Lane) Added Shadow Blade to Core items Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items Added Heaven's Halberd to Situational Items Moved Armlet to Core Items Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items Moved Silver Edge to Extension Items
Silencer (Lane) New Skill Build: Q WQ E Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Arcane Curse 2. Last Word 3. Glaives of Wisdom)
Renamed Jungle
Beastmaster[ (Jungle) New Skill Build: W E W E W R W E E Q R Q Q Q R (1. Call of the Wild 2. Inner Beast 3. Wild Axes) Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items Added Observer Wards to Utility Items Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items Added Tome of Experience to Utility Items Added Force Staff to Situational Items Added Pipe of Insight to Situational Items Added Refresher Orb to Extension Items Moved Solar Crest to Extension Items Removed Stout Shield Removed Quelling Blade Removed Iron Branch Removed Healing Salve Removed Iron Talon Removed Boots of Speed Removed Bottle Removed Aghanim's Scepter
Beastmaster (Lane) New Skill Build: Q W W E W R W E E E R Q Q Q (1. Call of the Wild 2. Inner Beast 3. Wild Axes) Added Ring of Protection to Starting Items Added Force Staff to Situational Items Added Pipe of Insight to Situational Items Moved Solar Crest to Extension Items Removed Enchanted Mango Removed Iron Branch Removed Magic Wand
Phoenix (Lane) New Skill Build: Q E E W E R E W W W R Q Q Q R (1. Sun Ray 2. Fire Spirits 3. Icarus Dive) Created New Tab: "Utility Items" Added Animal Courier to Starting Items Added Observer Ward to Starting Items Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items Added Aether Lens to Extension Items Added Refresher Orb to Extension Items Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items Moved Hand of Midas to Situational Items Removed Ring of Protection Removed Urn of Shadows Removed Rod of Atos Removed Octarine Core
Renamed Offlane Phoenix (Offlane) Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items Added Aether Lens to Extension Items Added Refresher Orb to Extension Items Moved Urn of Shadows to Situational Items Removed Rod of Atos Removed Octarine Core
To watch for
- Look into Infused Raindrops Application
Notes: 5. Mirana re-evaluate 6. Abaddon re-evaluate 8. Night Stalker double-check 11. Ursa (Jungle), Ursa (Lane) Mask of Madness Core/Vlad's Situational 15. Sniper (Lane), Sniper (Lane) double-check 20. Review Kunkka (Lane), Kunkka (Middle) skill build again (Middle: 1 point each -> Max W -> Max Torrent -> Max E) 21. early blightstone
of note: http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/453377-in-game-standard-hero-builds-140-million-subscriptions?page=295#5896
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
yo why'd u remove mjollnir from alch but leave skadi, abyssal and even shivas in?!?!?!?!
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