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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 306

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Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-17 21:05:44
May 17 2016 21:02 GMT
#6101
On May 17 2016 14:03 Belisarius wrote:
If you're offlane you choose between ray and spirits depending on whether you can win the lane with spirits.

Since half the point of offlane phoenix is to screw with the carry using spirits, I think you should max spirits. Or at least 1-2-0 into 1-2-x-1.


Yeah I agree with this. 1-2-x is pretty nice, but it may just be best to keep the guide as 1-4-0; the 3rd point in spirits is still pretty useful and if you are offlane phoenix you're looking to pester the carry, hit 6 then go and have a teamfight skirmish and get off a good supernova to gain a dominating control of the game, or at least get a kill from it to jump further ahead. Basically like Tidehunter but with burning fire everywhere. Level 3/4 spirits is probably better for that to secur a good egg, but maybe not.

Midas is still good for offlane, maybe even more so now because if you go spirits first you want 11 fast to get Sun Ray online.

Personally I'd also...

- Rod of Atos
- Octarine Core

+ Ghost Scepter (situational)
+ Refresher Orb or Hex (Extension)

Though there's a ton of items you could add to Phoenix's builds (Pipe, Hex, Aether Lens, Lotus Orb, pretty much anything with an active) so it's fine not to have them all of whatever, but I really don't like Octarine. It usually doesn't give you additional spells during a fight and you shouldn't have trouble surviving fights so the sustain is a bit of a waste. The best appeal of it is being able to supernova off cooldown sooner, but you could also do that with RFO and have the option to double supernova in a fight (not to mention double Shiva's).

To me Rod of Atos is only useful when the rest of your team is terrible AND has no disables but you're awesome and you need to do all the work yourself and you need to do it NOW before you can afford Shivas or Hex. Which I guess could mean it's useful for the guide, but it's really really situational.

Ghost scepter is good because well it's just good. It keeps you from having to supernova early if a melee gets in your face and most heroes can't just stand there and wait it out against you if you have sun ray going or it gives you time to dive away. It also has an extra synergy that you can jump into supernova if taking magic damage is suddenly a concern. It's a pretty valuable item in terms of giving Phoenix the survivability you need. Especially against some of the potentially problematic heroes like Clinkz or Ursa; you can Ghost Scepter during their IAS boost then fire spirit -> supernova.
Logo
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-17 23:05:37
May 17 2016 22:57 GMT
#6102
On May 17 2016 17:49 ahswtini wrote:
idk why ppl are saying mirana aghs is a meme build

idk. What's the technical definition of a meme build anyway. imo it's like radi alc; it dramatically changes the way the hero functions. I probably would have called radi alc a meme build when it first came up as well.

Aghs might turn out to be strong enough that it makes core mirana a thing again, or it might turn out to be a pub fad that isn't worth picking in real games. Either way, as I said, Torte should look at using it.

On May 17 2016 18:42 prismazure wrote:
Why Midas on Slark? I feel like it's a waste.

I think it's fine in situational.

On May 17 2016 19:27 ahswtini wrote:
nor is the new abyssal an "extension" item on slark. it is highly situational, and in those cases (where there are very elusive heroes that u need to control such as antimage or ember) often u would only buy basher and upgrade to abyssal later. im also worried about the ordering of the items in the extension section. it implies that moonshards should be bought before silver edge or skadi. replace abyssal with mkb, and put basher into situational

I agree. Abyssal is situational on a lot of heroes where it was previously core/extension, and slark is definitely one of them.

afaik Torte doesn't pay any attention to the ordering of items. I think we should, because I think an order of purchase is strongly implied whether we intend it to be or not, but currently we don't care.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-18 02:44:03
May 18 2016 02:43 GMT
#6103
Core items are in order
Extension items are ordered by price because the original ordering process caused a lot of discussion and debate and didn't get resolved.

Saves me time and hassle for items that can be vary by value/priority.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-18 06:14:11
May 18 2016 06:14 GMT
#6104
Phoenix finally changed, it's Lane and Offlane

Lane will change to "support" later on
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
prismazure
Profile Joined May 2016
France7 Posts
May 18 2016 14:06 GMT
#6105
On May 17 2016 22:36 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2016 18:42 prismazure wrote:
Why Midas on Slark? I feel like it's a waste.


Yes, how so?

It is sometimes built in pub and comp. games. It is not an unusual buy.,



Well.. only brings attack speed, the active benefits more farming heroes and late game carries whilst Slark is a ganker, and delay the rest of your build by a huge margin. Not optimal at all.
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22212 Posts
May 18 2016 15:40 GMT
#6106
cuz slark wants to get online and start hunting heroes with shadowblade asap
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8910 Posts
May 18 2016 20:10 GMT
#6107
plus, midas has been really weak for a while now, unless you see an enormous benefit from hitting level 16 ASAP. the issue, lately, is that if you use that midas to build a big lead while the rest of your team is simply average, you're actually a liability because not only are you super-leveled compared to the enemy..but you're highest on networth by far and away. you're basically a walking sack of gold and xp.

so you'll see heroes like wraith king greatly benefit from midas so that he can hit level 16 for the CD on reincarnation. since he has reincarnation up so frequently, it becomes difficult to kill him and fork over that massive lead so easily. some ppl see slark this way too where pact + ulti makes it difficult to kill you and reap the massive bounty. alternatively, you'll see supports like ancient apparition get it because his ult needs to be maxed out asap to have maximum impact.

most ppl prefer shadowblade as soon as possible, but in the instance where shadowblade and solo pick offs are not going to get you anywhere, midas + blink is how I've seen him built by people like comeh. however, he noted that he only did that in an organized environment because he could reliably get his team to initiate with him after the blink pounce.

and the people using your guide are not comeh and are not in an organized team environment where everyone is on the same page. IMO midas is definitely situational on slark.
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
May 18 2016 21:49 GMT
#6108
On May 19 2016 00:40 ahswtini wrote:
cuz slark wants to get online and start hunting heroes with shadowblade asap

Not really. Not since like 3 patches ago, or against certain lineups now. Shadowblade first is pretty average most games at the moment.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
May 18 2016 23:11 GMT
#6109
On May 19 2016 05:10 BluemoonSC wrote:
plus, midas has been really weak for a while now, unless you see an enormous benefit from hitting level 16 ASAP. the issue, lately, is that if you use that midas to build a big lead while the rest of your team is simply average, you're actually a liability because not only are you super-leveled compared to the enemy..but you're highest on networth by far and away. you're basically a walking sack of gold and xp.

so you'll see heroes like wraith king greatly benefit from midas so that he can hit level 16 for the CD on reincarnation. since he has reincarnation up so frequently, it becomes difficult to kill him and fork over that massive lead so easily. some ppl see slark this way too where pact + ulti makes it difficult to kill you and reap the massive bounty. alternatively, you'll see supports like ancient apparition get it because his ult needs to be maxed out asap to have maximum impact.

most ppl prefer shadowblade as soon as possible, but in the instance where shadowblade and solo pick offs are not going to get you anywhere, midas + blink is how I've seen him built by people like comeh. however, he noted that he only did that in an organized environment because he could reliably get his team to initiate with him after the blink pounce.

and the people using your guide are not comeh and are not in an organized team environment where everyone is on the same page. IMO midas is definitely situational on slark.


So you agree.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
May 19 2016 01:25 GMT
#6110
[image loading]
new bug
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Spicy_Curry
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States10573 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-19 07:28:11
May 19 2016 07:25 GMT
#6111
For mirana support I recommend going arcane -> mek -> blink -> greaves instead of getting euls

In general Midas is stronger than ever since you get 250% experience from the ranged creep. You dont need to leave the lane to get the benefit of killing larger creeps.
High Risk Low Reward
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22212 Posts
May 19 2016 07:33 GMT
#6112
On May 19 2016 06:49 Birdie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 19 2016 00:40 ahswtini wrote:
cuz slark wants to get online and start hunting heroes with shadowblade asap

Not really. Not since like 3 patches ago, or against certain lineups now. Shadowblade first is pretty average most games at the moment.

yeah, this is pretty wrong
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8910 Posts
May 19 2016 12:23 GMT
#6113
Birdie has his mind in organized DOTA.

I think in pubs right now you want heroes that can fight often. Shadow blade takes advantage of the pub atmosphere. Like I said above slark is a midas hero without a doubt but only situationally against those lineups IMO.
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Spicy_Curry
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States10573 Posts
May 19 2016 14:59 GMT
#6114
Shadowblade basically cripples the enemy supports so its not a bad choice considering the targeted demographic.
High Risk Low Reward
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8910 Posts
May 19 2016 18:39 GMT
#6115
On May 19 2016 16:25 Spicy_Curry wrote:
For mirana support I recommend going arcane -> mek -> blink -> greaves instead of getting euls

In general Midas is stronger than ever since you get 250% experience from the ranged creep. You dont need to leave the lane to get the benefit of killing larger creeps.


disagree with midas on support mirana. she is barely a support hero as it is because her stun isn't reliable and you don't gain anything that completes the hero all that much quicker.. if you're gonna transition into a core, perhaps this is appropriate, tho.

additionally, her aoe nuke is fantastic at killing creeps in addition to having arrow to snag a free creep from some idiot farming right there
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Velzi
Profile Joined June 2012
Finland659 Posts
May 19 2016 18:59 GMT
#6116
On May 20 2016 03:39 BluemoonSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 19 2016 16:25 Spicy_Curry wrote:
For mirana support I recommend going arcane -> mek -> blink -> greaves instead of getting euls

In general Midas is stronger than ever since you get 250% experience from the ranged creep. You dont need to leave the lane to get the benefit of killing larger creeps.


disagree with midas on support mirana. she is barely a support hero as it is because her stun isn't reliable and you don't gain anything that completes the hero all that much quicker.. if you're gonna transition into a core, perhaps this is appropriate, tho.

additionally, her aoe nuke is fantastic at killing creeps in addition to having arrow to snag a free creep from some idiot farming right there

pretty sure he never suggested midas for mirana support but i do agree with u
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you to their level and then beat you with experience. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/115305822 https://yasp.co/players/115305822
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8910 Posts
May 19 2016 19:04 GMT
#6117
ah okay, I suppose those were two separate thoughts. Ive seen "support" miranas pick up midases before so I figured they were related lol
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
May 19 2016 23:49 GMT
#6118
Situational is fine for Midas.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-20 23:51:14
May 20 2016 00:06 GMT
#6119
Alchemist (Middle)
Added Faerie Fire to Starting Items
Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items
Added Shiva's Guard to Extension Items
Added Moon Shard to Extension Items
Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items
Removed Mjollnir
Removed Heart of Tarrasque
Removed Blink Dagger
Removed Iron Branch

Lifestealer (Jungle)
Added Echo Sabre to Core Items
Added Desolator to Extension Items
Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items
Removed Wind Lace

Lifestealer (Lane)
Added Echo Sabre to Situational Items
Added Desolator to Extension Items
Removed Wind Lace

Faceless Void
Added Infused Raindrop to Early Game
Removed Iron Branches x2
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Echo Sabre

Timbersaw
Added Blink Dagger to Extension Items

Ancient Apparition (Middle)
Ancient Apparition (Lane)
Created New Tab: "Situational Items"
Added Urn of Shadows to Early Game
Added Octarine Core to Extension Items
Moved Hand of Midas to "Situational Items"
Moved Veil of Discord to "Situational Items"
Moved Rod of Atos to "Situational Items"
Moved Glimmer Cape to "Situational Items"

Tinker
Added Aether Lens to Core Items
Moved Bloodstone to Extension Items
Removed Shiva's Guard
Removed Eul's Scepter of Divinity
Removed Boots of Speed - Level 2

Doom (Jungle)
New Skill Build: Q W E W W R W Q Q Q R E E E R (1. Scorched Earth 2. Devour 3. Infernal Blade)
Added Mekansm to Core Items
Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Blade Mail to Situational Items
Removed Tranquil Boots
Removed Silver Edge
Removed Drums of Endurance

Doom (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q W E W W R W Q Q Q R E E E R (1. Scorched Earth 2. Devour 3. Infernal Blade)
Added Ring of Protection to Starting Items
Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items
Added Iron Talon to Core Items
Added Shadow Blade to Core Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Moved Vladmir's Offering to Extension Items
Moved Silver Edge to Extension Items
Removed Phase Boots
Removed Drums of Endurance
Removed Refresher Orb
Removed Enchanted Mango

Spectre
Created New Tab: "Core - Early Fight"
Added Phase Boots to "Core - Ganking"
Added Drums of Endurance to "Core - Ganking"
Added Diffusal Blade - Level 1 to "Core - Ganking"
Added Manta Style to "Core - Ganking"
Moved Manta Style to Core Items

Huskar
Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items

Drow Ranger
Created New Tab: "Situational Items"
Added Sange & Yasha to "Situational Items"
Added Monkey King Bar to Extension Items
Moved Morbid Mask to Early Game
Moved Silver Edge to "Situational Items"
Removed Tome of Knowledge
Removed Helm of the Dominator

Razor
Added Infused Raindrop to Early Game
Added Linken's Sphere to Situational Items
Added Shiva's Guard to Extension Items
Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items
Removed Iron Branch
Removed Faerie Fire
Removed Boots of Travel
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Refresher Orb
Removed Aghanim's Scepter

Axe (Lane)
Axe (Jungle)
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Infused Raindrop to Core Items
Added Tome of Experience to "Utility Items"
Added Infused Raindrop to "Utility Items"
Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items"
Removed Wind Lace

Elder Titan (Lane)
New Skill Build: W Q Q W Q R Q E E E R E W W R (1. Natural Order 2. Echo Stomp 3. Astral Spirit)
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Observer Ward to "Utility Items"
Added Sentry Ward to "Utility Items"
Added Dust of Appearance to "Utility Items"
Added Smoke of Deceit to "Utility Items"
Added Tome of Experience to "Utility Items"
Added Veil of Discord to Extension Items

Elder Titan (Middle)
New Skill Build: W E E Q E R E W W W R Q Q Q R (1. Natural Order 2. Astral Spirit 3. Echo Stomp)
Added Phase Boots to Core Items
Added Echo Sabre to Core Items
Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Blade Mail to Extension Items
Removed Power Treads
Removed Heart of Tarrasque

Slark (Lane)
Slark (Middle)
Added Quelling Blade to Early Game
Added Hand of Midas to Situational Items
Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items
Removed Skull Basher

Riki
Added Faerie Fire x2 to Starting Items
Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items
Moved Vladmir's Offering to Extension Items
Removed Healing Salve
Removed Echo Sabre
Removed Skull Basher
Removed Daedalus

Phantom Assassin
Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items
Removed Skull Basher

Slardar
Created New Tab: "Early Game"
Added Iron Branch x2 to Starting Items
Added Observer Ward to Starting Items
Added Boots of Speed to Early Game
Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items
Added Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items
Moved Iron Talon to "Early Game"
Moved Armlet of Mordiggan to Core Items
Moved Echo Sabre to Situational Items
Removed Power Treads
Removed Blight Stone
Removed Enchanted Mango

Sven
Added Armlet of Mordiggan to Situational Items

Juggernaut
Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items
Removed Skull Basher

Omniknight
Moved Aether Lens to Core Items
Removed Mekansm

Broodmother
Added Quelling Blade to Early Game
Added Phase Boots to Core Items
Added Diffusal Blade - Level 2 to Situational Items
Added Manta Style to Extension Items
Added Bloodthorn to Extension Items
Added Solar Crest to Extension Items
Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items
Removed Clarity
Removed Faerie Fire
Removed Power Treads
Removed Monkey King Bar
Removed Desolator

Viper
New Skill Build: Q W Q E E R E E Q W R W Q W R (1. Corrosive Skin 2. Nethertoxin 3. Poison Attack)
Added Dragon Lance to Core Items
Added Hurricane Pike to Extension Items
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items

Medusa
New Skill Build:
Added Dragon Lance to Situational Items
Added Bloodthorn to Extension Items
Moved Eye of Skadi to Extension Items
Removed Drums of Endurance
Removed Divine Rapier
Removed Boots of Travel - Level 2

Dragon Knight (Middle)
Dragon Knight (Lane)
Added Shadow Blade to Core items
Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Added Heaven's Halberd to Situational Items
Moved Armlet to Core Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items
Moved Silver Edge to Extension Items

Silencer (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q WQ E Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Arcane Curse 2. Last Word 3. Glaives of Wisdom)

Renamed Jungle
Beastmaster[ (Jungle)
New Skill Build: W E W E W R W E E Q R Q Q Q R (1. Call of the Wild 2. Inner Beast 3. Wild Axes)
Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Tome of Experience to Utility Items
Added Force Staff to Situational Items
Added Pipe of Insight to Situational Items
Added Refresher Orb to Extension Items
Moved Solar Crest to Extension Items
Removed Stout Shield
Removed Quelling Blade
Removed Iron Branch
Removed Healing Salve
Removed Iron Talon
Removed Boots of Speed
Removed Bottle
Removed Aghanim's Scepter

Beastmaster (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q W W E W R W E E E R Q Q Q (1. Call of the Wild 2. Inner Beast 3. Wild Axes)
Added Ring of Protection to Starting Items
Added Force Staff to Situational Items
Added Pipe of Insight to Situational Items
Moved Solar Crest to Extension Items
Removed Enchanted Mango
Removed Iron Branch
Removed Magic Wand

Phoenix (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q E E W E R E W W W R Q Q Q R (1. Sun Ray 2. Fire Spirits 3. Icarus Dive)
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Animal Courier to Starting Items
Added Observer Ward to Starting Items
Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items
Added Aether Lens to Extension Items
Added Refresher Orb to Extension Items
Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items
Moved Hand of Midas to Situational Items
Removed Ring of Protection
Removed Urn of Shadows
Removed Rod of Atos
Removed Octarine Core

Renamed Offlane
Phoenix (Offlane)
Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items
Added Aether Lens to Extension Items
Added Refresher Orb to Extension Items
Moved Urn of Shadows to Situational Items
Removed Rod of Atos
Removed Octarine Core


To watch for
  • Look into Infused Raindrops Application


Notes:
5. Mirana re-evaluate
6. Abaddon re-evaluate
8. Night Stalker double-check
11. Ursa (Jungle), Ursa (Lane) Mask of Madness Core/Vlad's Situational
15. Sniper (Lane), Sniper (Lane) double-check
20. Review Kunkka (Lane), Kunkka (Middle) skill build again (Middle: 1 point each -> Max W -> Max Torrent -> Max E)
21. early blightstone

of note: http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/453377-in-game-standard-hero-builds-140-million-subscriptions?page=295#5896
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22212 Posts
May 20 2016 08:13 GMT
#6120
yo why'd u remove mjollnir from alch but leave skadi, abyssal and even shivas in?!?!?!?!
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
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