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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 302

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Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-07 21:44:49
May 04 2016 05:29 GMT
#6021
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
May 04 2016 08:13 GMT
#6022
if ur going to go with the max mana break build on am, then it implies ur willing to fight early, so u want vanguard before bfury. i told u this in the other thread.
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
May 04 2016 10:11 GMT
#6023
I think for the average player bf first with burning build is still probably better, if you're not a guide player then oov vanguard mana break build is worth considering though.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
May 04 2016 10:43 GMT
#6024
vanguard gives u so much survivability that it's arguably more forgiving for average players. u also wont need to take stats. this also means u dont have to explain to players when to stop taking stats and start taking blink and then mana break.
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
May 04 2016 22:44 GMT
#6025
I like leveling up untouchable to two points and nature's attendents to two points before deciding to max one over the other. Usually I level nature's attendents to push.
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
May 05 2016 17:24 GMT
#6026
On May 05 2016 07:44 BluemoonSC wrote:
I like leveling up untouchable to two points and nature's attendents to two points before deciding to max one over the other. Usually I level nature's attendents to push.


I maxed out whichever had more survivability with the lowest cost since I don't see most players having mana when they get their ult.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
May 05 2016 21:09 GMT
#6027
At lvl 6 with infused raindrops and a stick you should be fine.

I personally go for phase bc kiting back and forth for max dmg means I use less impetus shots..but especially with treads you shouldn't have a problem with fitting in 50ish more mana.

I'd argue the higher heal is way more survivability than the attack speed slow when the counters to enchantress are heavy spell nukers..the attack speed slow will only go so far, more so now that the backswing resets to normal after you stop attacking her.
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-06 07:27:12
May 06 2016 07:25 GMT
#6028
On May 06 2016 06:09 BluemoonSC wrote:
At lvl 6 with infused raindrops and a stick you should be fine.

I personally go for phase bc kiting back and forth for max dmg means I use less impetus shots..but especially with treads you shouldn't have a problem with fitting in 50ish more mana.

I'd argue the higher heal is way more survivability than the attack speed slow when the counters to enchantress are heavy spell nukers..the attack speed slow will only go so far, more so now that the backswing resets to normal after you stop attacking her.


What about

Phase + Drums + Dragon Lance

and making Extension: Pike, BKB, Aghs, Moon Shard, Scythe?




I think ultimately Enchantress is pretty fluid with her build in terms of itemization. Some people like Phase with Drums and others are gearing more towards Treads with an Earlier Pike and then going aghs
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-06 17:42:19
May 06 2016 17:40 GMT
#6029
I'm a big fan of phase drums on her. Haven't played with the new drums on her tho. Just phase wand raindrops dragon Lance if I can get away with it. Infused raindrops are just so good especially bc they help against her biggest threat, magic nuke.

But I think phase wand drums DL is just as good.

Agha is core with or without dragon lance tho, not extension.

That's almost the issue with a guide for her. Agha is core but if you can get a DL you almost always wanna pick that up first.
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
May 07 2016 17:41 GMT
#6030
We'll see what Manila establishes and I'll adjust from there.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-09 21:19:33
May 07 2016 21:44 GMT
#6031
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Velzi
Profile Joined June 2012
Finland659 Posts
May 08 2016 11:50 GMT
#6032
Even tho Silencer Arcane Curse got buffed im pretty sure u want value point in glaives no matter lane or mid. Actually now that i checked the changes glaives got minor buff too for lvl1 (5% so its 2dmg per hit with 40 int). Anything from lvl1-4 shoudl be fine, now that last word doesnt slow and arcane curse does i guess maxing q over e is more appealing. Only real benefit from maxing e is the cooldown reduction and i dont think u can expect to get multiple last words off in early game skirmishes so the cooldown reduction only benefits the harassing. (which u can do with maxed q or w better imo). So 4-1-1-1 into something id say.

Doom jungle delays value point in e very late, u literally cant gank without 1 in e. Overall doom with 1-4-4-1 is 1000 times scarier than 4-4-1-1 doom. (always max w first tho, thats too good to pass)

Haven't played Mid NS for ages so dunno about Iron Talon with mid NS, for offlane and pos4 NS its must have.

There are some inconsistency with Moonshard for few heroes, f.e. LS, Tiny and Sven has Moonshard and TA and WK doesnt. All 4 get a lot out of IAS. I don't know whats the policy with the Moonshard, basicly every right clicker wants it at some point but do you want to have it in guide or not is debatable.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you to their level and then beat you with experience. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/115305822 https://yasp.co/players/115305822
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
May 09 2016 03:34 GMT
#6033
Keep Beastmaster Middle or change it to Jungle?
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
May 09 2016 17:52 GMT
#6034
BM should be offlane or mid. mostly offlane tho because he can get more out of the lane than most heroes.

------------------

AM - I still think that treads, BF is the better build in pubs. the question I'd be asking is yasha, vanguard, manta? vit booster, yasha, vanguard? vanguard, then manta?

IMO it depends on whether or not you want to rice or you want to fight. if you're being pressured and need to fight, vanguard first. if you are ok with split pushing, yasha first.

but definitely vanguard before completing the manta IMO

-------------------------

doom should definitely be building a mek. I'll have to dig through my dotabuff, but I will send you the build I prefer and possibly the replay to show you the impact that my mek timing had on the game (arguably game winning, by someone far better than me)

-----------------

what on earth did you do with the qop guide tho lol.. agha is almost 100% core in the games that this guide is aimed at. your question should be orchid first VS agha first. octarine is almost never the play, especially now with blood thorn.

my preferred build this patch has been orchid, agha, bkb, +1, bloodthorn.

-------------------

what are you asking about echo sabre being core on? and blademail?
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-09 21:05:40
May 09 2016 20:55 GMT
#6035
On May 08 2016 20:50 Velzi wrote:
Even tho Silencer Arcane Curse got buffed im pretty sure u want value point in glaives no matter lane or mid. Actually now that i checked the changes glaives got minor buff too for lvl1 (5% so its 2dmg per hit with 40 int). Anything from lvl1-4 shoudl be fine, now that last word doesnt slow and arcane curse does i guess maxing q over e is more appealing. Only real benefit from maxing e is the cooldown reduction and i dont think u can expect to get multiple last words off in early game skirmishes so the cooldown reduction only benefits the harassing. (which u can do with maxed q or w better imo). So 4-1-1-1 into something id say.

Doom jungle delays value point in e very late, u literally cant gank without 1 in e. Overall doom with 1-4-4-1 is 1000 times scarier than 4-4-1-1 doom. (always max w first tho, thats too good to pass)

Haven't played Mid NS for ages so dunno about Iron Talon with mid NS, for offlane and pos4 NS its must have.

There are some inconsistency with Moonshard for few heroes, f.e. LS, Tiny and Sven has Moonshard and TA and WK doesnt. All 4 get a lot out of IAS. I don't know whats the policy with the Moonshard, basicly every right clicker wants it at some point but do you want to have it in guide or not is debatable.


Will add it for Silencer Middle

Will fix Doom Jungle to have E

Moonshard: It's pretty much based on how expected it is to have Moon Shard or if Armour is especially needed for a hero or not (e.g Sven vs. Doom)

Depends if I have room in Extension since I am retracting all "Luxury" tabs on builds in preparation for the transition.

On May 10 2016 02:52 BluemoonSC wrote:
BM should be offlane or mid. mostly offlane tho because he can get more out of the lane than most heroes.

------------------

AM - I still think that treads, BF is the better build in pubs. the question I'd be asking is yasha, vanguard, manta? vit booster, yasha, vanguard? vanguard, then manta?

IMO it depends on whether or not you want to rice or you want to fight. if you're being pressured and need to fight, vanguard first. if you are ok with split pushing, yasha first.

but definitely vanguard before completing the manta IMO

-------------------------

doom should definitely be building a mek. I'll have to dig through my dotabuff, but I will send you the build I prefer and possibly the replay to show you the impact that my mek timing had on the game (arguably game winning, by someone far better than me)

-----------------

what on earth did you do with the qop guide tho lol.. agha is almost 100% core in the games that this guide is aimed at. your question should be orchid first VS agha first. octarine is almost never the play, especially now with blood thorn.

my preferred build this patch has been orchid, agha, bkb, +1, bloodthorn.

-------------------

what are you asking about echo sabre being core on? and blademail?


I saw a Jungle Beastmaster as was pretty impressed

I don't think Vanguard is needed whatsoever. I understand the value, but I do not see it commonly bought still. I'll be adding the stats back to him in the meantime.

Yes, I saw Meka come up sometimes. Drums and Vlads are still relevant though. Blink was around as well.

I added Tranq to the Jungle build in the meantime.

I will remove Octarine. Orchid + BKB is correct. I don't think Aghs is returning now with Bloodthorn.

https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-11 07:59:37
May 09 2016 21:19 GMT
#6036
Sven
Moved Echo Sabre to Core Items
Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items

Enchantress
New Skill Build: W Q Q E Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Untouchable 2. Nature's Attendants 3. Enchant)
Added Infused Raindrops to Utility Items

Spirit Breaker
Added Tome of Knowledge to Utility Items
Added Infused Raindrop to Utility Items
Added Wind Lace to Situational Items
Moved Vladmir's Offering to Situational Items
Moved Echo Sabre to Situational Items
Moved Blade Mail to Extension Items
Moved Silver Edge to Extension Items

Lich
Added Veil of Discord to Extension Items

Pudge
Added Wind Lace to Situational Items
Added Tome of Knowledge to Utility Items
Moved Pipe of Insight to Situational Items
Moved Force Staff to Extension Items

Bristleback
Added Ring of Protection to Starting Items
Added Wind Lace to Core Items
Added Infused Raindrop to Utility Items
Added Blight Stone to Situational Items
Moved Sange & Yasha to Core Items
Moved Crimson Guard to Situational Items
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
Removed Healing Salve

Drow Ranger
Added Dragon Lance to Core Items
Moved Silver Edge to Core Items
Added Tome of Knowledge to Utility Items
Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items
Moved Manta Style to Extension Items
Removed Boots of Travel
Removed Aghanim's Scepter
Removed Monkey King Bar
Removed Mjollnir
Removed Sange & Yasha
Removed Yasha

Anti-Mage
New Skill Build: W Q E Stats Stats R Stats W W W R Q Q Q Stats R E E E (1. Blink 2. Mana Break 3. Spell Shield)
Removed Vladmir's Offering
Removed Poor Man's Shield

Chaos Knight
Added Quelling blade to Core Items
Added Blight Stone to Situational Items
Removed Iron Branch x3

Lifestealer (Lane)
Added Wind Lace to Core Items
Added Tome of Knowledge to Utility Items
Added Infused Raindrop to Utility Items
Added Wind Lace to Situational Items
Added Daedalus to Extension Items
Added Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items
Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Removed Orb of Venom
Removed Drums of Endurance

Lifestealer (Jungle)
Added Wind Lace to Core Items
Added Tome of Knowledge to Utility Items
Added Infused Raindrop to Utility Items
Added Wind Lace to Situational Items
Added Daedalus to Extension Items
Added Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items
Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items
Removed Drums of Endurance
Removed Skull Basher

Viper
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Added Blade Mail to Situational Items
Added Satanic to Extension Items
Removed Urn of Shadows
Removed Heart of Tarrasque

Templar Assassin
Created New Tab: "Early Game"
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Boots of Speed to "Early Game"
Added Ring of Aquila to "Early Game"
Added Tome of Knowledge to "Utility Items"
Moved Bottle to "Early Game"
Moved Manta Style to Extension Items
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Sange & Yasha
Removed Drums of Endurance
Removed Monkey King Bar

Queen of Pain
Added Monkey King Bar to Extension Items
Moved Black King Bar to Core Items
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Situational Items
Removed Eye of Skadi
Removed Refresher Orb

Bloodseeker (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q E E W E R E Q Q W R W W Q R (1. Thirst 2. Blood Rite 3. Blood Rage)
Added Poor Man's Shield to Early Game
Added Wind Lace to Situational Items
Added Assault Cuirass to Extension Items
Added Skull Basher to Extension Items
Added Butterfly to Extension Items
Removed Orb of Venom
Removed Hand of Midas
Removed Mjollnir
Removed Abyssal Blade
Removed Monkey King Bar

Bloodseeker (Middle)
New Skill Build: Q E E W E R E Q Q W R W W Q R (1. Thirst 2. Blood Rite 3. Blood Rage)
Added Poor Man's Shield to Early Game
Added Wind Lace to Situational Items
Added Assault Cuirass to Extension Items
Added Skull Basher to Extension Items
Added Butterfly to Extension Items
Removed Hand of Midas
Removed Mjollnir
Removed Abyssal Blade
Removed Monkey King Bar

Bloodseeker (Jungle)
New Skill Build: Q E Q E E R E Q W W R WW Q (1. Thirst 2. Blood Rite 3. Blood Rage)
Added Poor Man's Shield to Early Game
Added Wind Lace to Situational Items
Added Assault Cuirass to Extension Items
Added Skull Basher to Extension Items
Added Butterfly to Extension Items
Removed Hand of Midas
Removed Mjollnir
Removed Abyssal Blade
Removed Monkey King Bar

Bounty Hunter
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Wind Lace to Core Items (Roam)
Added Tome of Experience to "Utility Items"
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Heaven's Halberd
Removed Drums of Endurance
Removed Linken's Sphere
Removed Force Staff
Removed Assault Cuirass

Riki
New Skill Build: E W E Q E R E W W W R Q Q Q R (1. Cloak and Dagger 2. Blink Strike 3. Smoke Screen)
Added Tome of Experience to Utility Items
Added Infused Raindrop to Utility Items'
Added Manta Style to Extension Items

Winter Wyvern
Added Arcane Boots to Core Items
Added Wind Lace to Core Items
Added Tome of Experience to Utility Items
Moved Guardian Greaves to Extension Items
Removed Soul Ring
Removed Boots of Speed
Removed Tranquil Boots

Windranger (Middle)
Windranger (Lane)
Removed Rod of Atos

Warlock
New Skill Build: W Stats W Stats W R W Q E E R E E Q Q R Q (1. Shadow Word 2. Upheaval 3. Fatal Bonds)

Rubick
Added Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items
Removed Rod of Atos

Storm Spirit
Created New Tab: "Situational Items"
Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to "Situational Items"
Added Linken's Sphere to "Situational Items"
Added Aghanim's Scepter to "Situational Items"

Enigma
Added Animal Courier to Starting Items
Added Observer Wards x2 to Starting Items
Removed Iron Branch x3

Axe (Lane)
Axe (Jungle)
Added Wind Lace to Core Items
Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items
Moved Lotus Orb to Situational Items
Moved Force Staff to Extension Items

Batrider
Added Wind Lace to Situational Items
Removed Eul's Scepter of Divinity

Tiny (Lane)
Tiny (Middle)
Created New Tab: "Early Game"
Added Quelling Blade to "Early Game"
Added Boots of Speed to "Early Game"
Added Wind Lace to Situational Items
Moved Echo Sabre to Core Items
Moved Manta Style to Extension Items

Night Stalker
New Skill Build: Q E Q E Q W Q R E E R W W W (1. Void 2. Hunter in the Night 3. Crippling Fear)
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Iron Talon to Core Items
Added Tome of Knowledge to "Utility Items"
Added Infused Raindrop to "Utility Items"
Added Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Moved Vladmir's Offering to Situational Items
Moved Blade Mail to Extension Items
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
Removed Quelling Blade

Silencer (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q E Q E Q R Q W E E R W W W R (1. Arcane Curse 2. Last Word 3. Glaives of Wisdom)
Added Hurricane Pike to Extension Items
Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Extension Items
Moved Rod of Atos to Situational Items

Silencer (Middle)
New Skill Build: W Q Q E Q R Q E E E R W W W (1. Arcane Curse 2. Last Word 3. Glaives of Wisdom)
Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Extension Items

Wraith King
Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Black King Bar to Situational Items

Doom (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q W W E W R W Q Q Q R E E E R (1. Scorched Earth 2. Devour 3. Infernal Blade)
Added Drums of Endurance to Core Items
Added Blade Mail to Extension Items
Moved Vladmir's Offering to Core Items
Removed Shadow Blade
Removed Assault Cuirass
Removed Echo Sabre
Removed Sange & Yasha

Doom (Jungle)
New Skill Build: Q W E W W R W E E E R Q Q Q R (1. Scorched Earth 2. Infernal Blade 3. Devour)
Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items
Added Iron Talon to Core Items
Added Drums of Endurance to Core Items
Added Blade Mail to Extension Items
Moved Vladmir's Offering to Core Items
Removed Shadow Blade
Removed Assault Cuirass
Removed Echo Sabre
Removed Sange & Yasha
Removed Phase Boots

Clinkz
Added Blight Stone to Core Items
Added Hurricane Pike to Extension Items

Elder Titan (Lane)
Added Clarity to Starting Items
Added Blade Mail to Extension Items
Removed Black King Bar

Elder Titan (Middle)
Added Blade Mail to Situational Items

Alchemist
Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items
Added Mjollnir to Extension Items
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
Removed Skull Basher
Removed Moon Shard

Winter Wyvern
Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items
Added Soul Ring to Core Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Extension Items
Removed Arcane Boots



To watch for
  • Look into Infused Raindrops Application
  • Adjust Starting Items due to 20 new gold availability
  • Adjust Echo Sabre inclusion
  • Retext Shadow Blade/Silver Edge
  • Heroes to test: , , , , , , , ,


Notes:
1. echo sabre core?
2. Blademail still core?
3. echo sabre still core?
4. feedback
5. re-evaluate
6. re-evaluate

7. double-check
8. double-check
11. Mask of Madness Core/Vlad's Situational
13. Hurricane Pike Extension?
14. Echo Sabre Core? Add Back OOV
15. double-check
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-09 21:46:08
May 09 2016 21:42 GMT
#6037
Bloodthorn is not relevant at all. QoP builds agha for general teamfights and waveclear, and orchid to hit specific pickoff timings and snowball. Whether you consider bloodthorn half an hour later has no bearing on that decision at all.

I think agha is probably better but I don't hate orchid.

I don't mind vanguard->BF AM. It's not for every game but it smooths AM's earlygame a lot, and that's important for guide players.

Mek on doom idk. In general I think mek rushing is pretty overrated in pubs, and jungle doom is a real pain to build here because sometimes he's an actual 4pos but usually the player wants to be the afk second 1pos. Vlads etc is a reasonable middle ground.
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
May 09 2016 21:58 GMT
#6038
Agha on qop is kinda a big deal because of the instant wave clear every 30 seconds or whatever, it's definitely core somewhere along the line. You often need other items first but it's still solid.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
May 09 2016 23:22 GMT
#6039
re: doom - if you look at many of the top dotabuff matches with doom, you'll notice that tranqs drums vlads is an offlane build. if you're playing the 4 pos doom (jungle - the more common doom role at the mmr we're talking about), mek is definitely the play. burst heal is generally better than lifesteal in pubs tho IMO. you can completely turn a fight. if you're looking for a build, like i said..timing felt pretty good, though i know for a fact i could have had my arcanes+mek sooner

https://yasp.co/matches/2328598300/purchases

-------------
AM - vanguard is the replacement for vlads this patch because it builds into abyssal. if you're not picking it up, you're, more often than not, playing the hero wrong. it allows him to fight earlier on than he normally would be able to and one of the main perks is being able to blink in for a massive mana void.

there's no problem with stats, however having an HP pool that builds into an item you're almost bound to get later on in the game..can't pass it up. like i said, im just not sure what the best timing is based on the pro matches i've seen so far. beesa (legendary AM player) has picked it up very quickly in almost all of his AM qualifier matches, so take that for what it's worth.

-----------

jungle beast master is fine, but like i said above, he gets more out of a lane role.

-----------

QOP - 95% of the games where your guides will make a difference should probably feature an agha on QOP. it gives you 1/3 of the CD (130s vs 40s) and a ton of much needed stats to make the hero relevant. bloodthorn has no baring on whether or not you pick this up. bloodthorn is an ultra late game item that you get after you have picked up an orchid (more often before agha), then bulk up a bit (agha+bkb) so that you don't get obliterated.

in fact, more often than not in my losses on QOP lately, i've wished that i picked up my agha over getting an orchid. between that and sleep deprivation (as well as my tendency to go deep when i hit lvl 3) i've not been at my best, but she's my 2nd most played hero..so if you're ever going to listen to me about hero builds, trust me on my qop knowledge lol
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
May 10 2016 01:35 GMT
#6040
If u go vanguard first on AM I think you max mana break cos you don't need the stats really, and you should probably be fighting more anyway. Oov is fun with vanguard first as well.

I think I still like Treads/BF/Vlads/Manta/Abyssal more though.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
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