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Pretty much all the heroes Torte listed are heroes who currently have a mid and lane guide, but are usually played support. I just switched their mid guide to "core" because I was trying to minimise the number of guides we deleted.
Core pugna is a thing (despite sumail just losing badly with it).
Core warlock is arguably better than support warlock, although both are irrelevant.
Core NS is there for historical reasons, just like mid snowball Nyx.
ES and ET I agree are borderline.
It has nothing to do with whether or not the hero buys an aghs. Tree has no business being on that list.
The advantage of "core" versus "carry" is that newbies automatically associate the carry with safelane farm, and the whole point is to try and separate the system from the lanes a little.
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I don't think anyone has a problem with there being like a core warlock or whatever. it's just that the support warlock should clearly be a support. If warlock has support + core guides then the core guide shouldn't list wards at all anywhere.
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On March 05 2016 08:00 Logo wrote:
I don't think anyone has a problem with there being like a core warlock or whatever. it's just that the support warlock should clearly be a support. If warlock has support + core guides then the core guide shouldn't list wards at all anywhere.
Right, yes, okay. I agree. I assumed that was self-evident.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 05 2016 07:56 Belisarius wrote:
Pretty much all the heroes Torte listed are heroes who currently have a mid and lane guide, but are usually played support. I just switched their mid guide to "core" because I was trying to minimise the number of guides we deleted.
Core pugna is a thing (despite sumail just losing badly with it).
Core warlock is arguably better than support warlock, although both are irrelevant.
Core NS is there for historical reasons, just like mid snowball Nyx.
ES and ET I agree are borderline.
It has nothing to do with whether or not the hero buys an aghs. Tree has no business being on that list.
The advantage of "core" versus "carry" is that newbies automatically associate the carry with safelane farm, and the whole point is to try and separate the system from the lanes a little.
I have no objection to having core guides for those heroes.
My objection is to:
+ Applicable to Support Heroes (e.g. Aghs rushers) & Cores/Carries
A guide for core NS is a guide for core NS. A guide for support NS is a guide for support NS. Don't make a guide for support NS and label it as core. That causes all sorts of confusion.
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I think the issue here is aghs rushing heroes. What does that mean, and which heroes does torte consider aghs rushers?
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Aghs rushing is an off-hand labeling.
I refer to it as "large item to buy or needed as soon as possible to which the hero does not buy or dedicate him/herself to buying wards"
Blink Dagger, Aghanim's Scepter, Mekansm/Guardian Greaves are large items (though I slotted GG/Mekansm to Support to create a better separation).
So while these heroes are not carrying per se, they still need their Core items to play to their best potential or expectancy from your team.
these are just my first thoughts, start establishing an outline to better determine which guide goes where.
So for example:
Phoenix goes Midas into Meka -> Core
Phoenix starves and goes Wards + Aether Lens -> Support
Earth Spirit goes Urn of Shadows and Veil -> Support
Earth Spirit goes Guardian Greaves -> Core
It's a question of straight-lining big core items for fights or small supportive items while you handle the load of wards, etc.
Evidently, it is imperfect. But I do not want to expand into 8 labels either.
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United States47024 Posts
Again, the problem is that the "core" designation has implications of farm priority and general playstyle (e.g. taking early game lane farm) which are at odds with what a 4 position ganking hero should be doing.
"Support" isn't a designation of how rich or poor a hero is, it has implications on their playstyle and approach to the game.
A support NS that eschews wards and small items in favor of an earlier Aghs does not become a core. He's still a support because that roughly defines his role in terms of the team's gameplan.
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The clearest way I can think of to explain it is earth shaker. No one is going to argue that blink isn't core for earth shaker or that they won't rush it. In fact, occasionally people will give es much higher farm priority until he gets it. However, he can still do this and be a support most of the time.
The point of this is to say that core/support are still not perfect labels and will still miss some nuance. However, they do a better job of conveying roles than lane/mid do and are still preferable labeling methods.
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Right, I think I get it now. You're misunderstanding what core means. They are carrying, if they are using a core guide.
A core hero is a 1-2-(3) position hero. It is not a support who gets unexpectedly rich, or a support who is rushing some major item. It is, by definition, not a support at all.
Take... I don't know... windrunner, (although I realise support WR is currently ass).
A core windrunner goes phase-(bottle)-aghs-blink-crit/whatever
A support windrunner goes boots-force/mek/euls/blink/whatever
You choose at the start of the game whether to use the core or the support guide, based on your team and where you will be laning. If you are the 1/2 position you would choose the core guide, and you should not need to buy wards ever because there should be 2 actual supports doing that.
If you are the 4/5 position you would choose the support guide. There is no way you could expect to get enough gold as a 4/5pos to be effective using a DPS progression, so you do not attempt it and you buy utility items instead.
The same is true of NS, nyx, pugna, naga or anyone else with a dual guide. If they are cores, they are no more likely to buy wards than an invoker or antimage, because they are getting a large chunk of their team's gold and in return they are expected to be able to stand up to the enemy's cores.
I realise that there are a few heroes where the item progression is similar, but even there the tempo of the core build is important. No team should need their 1/2pos to waste time and gpm doing support junk, no matter what hero it is.
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Typically, 3 positions are considered cores as well, though it's not quite as cut and dry. (Some like furion are more like a 2, others like enchantress usually drop more to a 4)
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Yes, the one case where the system is truly ambiguous is in the offlane, especially dual offlanes, because whether a hero moves from there into a tempo progression or a utility progression depends on how well the lane goes.
Thankfully most of those heroes have a standard utility progression that works okay whether they get it quickly or slowly, and a lot of the other cases can be covered in situational.
My preference is to save "offlane" for dedicated solo offlaners (eg. DS, timber), and maybe (?) the core version of a dual-guide hero when it almost always comes out of offlane (eg. undying, phoenix, ench). Heroes who can lane pretty much anywhere (eg. LD, NP) should just get "core", and aggro supports are still supports.
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Subscribed but the guide isn't showing in game when I tried it in a practice lobby.
Would appreciate any help.
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SoCal8910 Posts
did you subscribe in game by clicking the little book on the top left, while in a game?
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On March 06 2016 01:34 kaykaykay wrote:
Subscribed but the guide isn't showing in game when I tried it in a practice lobby.
Would appreciate any help.
Practice lobby or demo hero mode?
You can access the builds in-game as well if they don't work via Steam Community
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Should we make a separate topic in regards to the hero builds system change?
I'm thinking yes because it may get cluttered with any immediate changes made
But also thinking no because I like things here for posterity/archival purposes.
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On March 07 2016 11:11 Torte de Lini wrote:
Should we make a separate topic in regards to the hero builds system change?
I'm thinking yes because it may get cluttered with any immediate changes made
But also thinking no because I like things here for posterity/archival purposes.
For archival purposes it's a lot easier to find a topic if it's kept separate. It's also not like it would be a long running thread, as the main purpose is just "specific change to this system" rather than an entirely new, separate project.
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I think I'll keep it in here, the transition is only phase 1.
Phase 2 is finding ways to ensure all items fit and the creation of new guides (and deletion of old ones)
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 Puck
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Situational Items
Moved Dagon to Extension Items
 Sven
New Skill Build: Q E E W W R W W E E R Q Q Q R (1. Great Cleave 2. Warcry 3. Storm Hammer)
Created New Tab: "Early Game"
Added Boots of Speed to "Early Game"
Added Helm of the Dominator to Core Items
Added Sange & Yasha to Core Items
Added Satanic to Extension Items
Moved Quelling Blade to "Early Game"
Removed Mask of Madness
Removed Abyssal Blade
 Phantom Lancer
New Skill Build: Q W Q E Q R Q Stats Stats W R W W Stats Stats R E E E (1. Phantom Lance 2. Doppelganger 3. Phantom Rush)
Added Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Removed Moon Shard
Removed Daedalus
Removed Abyssal Blade
Faceless Void
Added Diffusal Blade to Situational Items
Added Daedalus to Extension Items
Added Mjollnir to Extension Items
Removed Sange & Yashe
Removed Assault Cuirass
Removed Manta Style
Earth Spirit (Middle)
Earth Spirit (Lane)
Added Orb of Venom to Core Items
Moved Force Staff to Situational Items
Moved Aether Lens to Extension Items
Moved Guardian Greaves to Extension Items
Removed Shiva's Guard
 Enchantress
Moved Drums of Endurance to Core Items
To-Do
1. Update Contributor's List
2. Revise Build Categories (tentative thoughts: Middle, Jungle, Safe[lane], Off[lane], Support)
3. split phoenix builds into support/core
4. done
5. done
6. done
7. Update contributor's list
8. Follow-up draft transitional system [blog/feedback]
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So friend of mine played Terrorblade today and he wondered why TB doesnt take ult @lvl6?
Illusions dont really scale that well until u have items mainly because they are made of paper that early so pumping more points into Conjure Image isnt that crucial. Only thing i can think of is the possible mana problem since lvl1 Sunder costs 200 mana.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/H2BDDXV.png)
