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On March 08 2016 06:44 Velzi wrote:
So friend of mine played Terrorblade today and he wondered why TB doesnt take ult @lvl6?
Illusions dont really scale that well until u have items mainly because they are made of paper that early so pumping more points into Conjure Image isnt that crucial. Only thing i can think of is the possible mana problem since lvl1 Sunder costs 200 mana.
I checked this during the Major and saw that it was a split between taking ult at 6 or not. I felt that most match-ups, you'll get nuked down before you can ultimate and thus you wouldn't want to fight until later on when you have some core items.
I am not sure if others feel similar, I seldom play Terrorblade.
E: I like the idea of going Helm instead of Drums and adding Quelling Blade.
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SoCal8910 Posts
if you plan on grouping up and taking an engagement, take it. if you plan on farming, your points are better spent elsewhere.
the only utility outside of fighting would be swapping the hp of a support when you're on low HP in the jungle, but that's for the TB thread.
btw - helm doesn't do much. you want to keep producing illusions and helm does nothing for illusions. even in the jungle, an extra set of tangos will have more value, but since your agi gain is so good, your illusions can tank a lot of dmg so that you don't have to.
quelling blade is a must since you will definitely be jungling at some point and in general (lane too) the faster you kill creeps as a melee hard carry, the more farm you will be able to take in. (duh lol)
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 Puck
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Situational Items
Moved Dagon to Extension Items
 Sven
New Skill Build: Q E E W W R W W E E R Q Q Q R (1. Great Cleave 2. Warcry 3. Storm Hammer)
Created New Tab: "Early Game"
Added Boots of Speed to "Early Game"
Added Helm of the Dominator to Core Items
Added Sange & Yasha to Core Items
Added Satanic to Extension Items
Moved Quelling Blade to "Early Game"
Removed Mask of Madness
Removed Abyssal Blade
 Phantom Lancer
New Skill Build: Q W Q E Q R Q Stats Stats W R W W Stats Stats R E E E (1. Phantom Lance 2. Doppelganger 3. Phantom Rush)
Added Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Removed Moon Shard
Removed Daedalus
Removed Abyssal Blade
Faceless Void
Added Diffusal Blade to Situational Items
Added Daedalus to Extension Items
Added Mjollnir to Extension Items
Removed Sange & Yashe
Removed Assault Cuirass
Removed Manta Style
Earth Spirit (Middle)
Earth Spirit (Lane)
Added Orb of Venom to Core Items
Moved Force Staff to Situational Items
Moved Aether Lens to Extension Items
Moved Guardian Greaves to Extension Items
Removed Shiva's Guard
 Enchantress
Moved Drums of Endurance to Core Items
Terrorblade
Added Poor Man's Shield to Early Game
Removed Ring of Basilius
Removed Magic Wand
 Chen
Moved Vladmir's Offering to Core Items
Moved Aghanim's to Extension Items
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Roles: these will be in the title, intended to distinguish itself both in terms of expectation of priority farm and role, as well as to separate its intention to alternative guides
Core:
+ Carries
+ Core Item purchasers
Support: can be changed for "Utility" to accommodate heroes that are offensive (Spirit Breaker/Night Stalker), but purchase wards/utility items
+ Starving Supports/Utility Heroes/Roamers
+ Meka/Pipe/Defensive Item carriers
Offlane:
+ Initiating Supports
+ Heroes who need levels, not items
+ Solo-Offlane oriented
+ to add: 1 observer ward to block camp and/or to cover nearby enemy forest
Jungle:
+ To avoid deleting too many guides
+ Skill/Item Build differentiating
Sub-roles (partial split tabs in guides): these sub-roles will be written next to the Core Items tab title. e.g: Core - Roaming
Middle:
Support (and/or Utility - [Hard Support])
Safe Lane/Offlane
Roaming/Ganking
will update with personal views - see red for personal views
list not yet updated
+ Show Spoiler [Jan 21 2016] +Unchanged, except for renaming Minor changes, usually merging a mid/safelane guide into a core guide Major changes, generally turning a spare mid/safe guide into a support Delete: redundant guides from mid/safe merge with no other use (check pairs and delete the one with least subscribers) Probably delete: guides that could either be repurposed or ditched, plus some egregiously outdated builds New guides Enchantress Offlane  Invoker Core QE  Mirana Support/Roam Venge Core  Zeus Support guides Bounty Hunter Offlane Void Core  Morph Offlane  Pudge Core  Pugna Support  Veno Core Spirit Breaker Offlane  Tusk Core Wraith King Support It might be worth labelling a few very specific heroes as "roam", like techies, pudge, spiritbreaker and bounty. It would get us around having to create their parallel guides. My instinct is that a lot of 2k players would avoid subscribing to a pudge guide that explicitly labels them a support, but would be comfortable with roam.
BELISARIUS: http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/453377-in-game-standard-hero-builds-120-million-subscriptions?page=282#5636
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see red for changes. List not updated, will try today otherwise later this week.
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Spirit Breaker and Night Stalker are not non-supports just because they roam/are aggressive.
I don't see why Offlane needs to include "initiating supports". Just put all supports in the Support category, offlaners in the Offlane category.
Offlaners most definitely need items, and with the new hard camp they're basically guaranteed to get those items at a reasonable time. It's pretty out-dated to say that offlaners just get exp and then go kill people. You'd be a losing offlane if that's all you could manage. Pos 4 also requires one item typically; at best you could say that pos 5 doesn't require items, only levels, but that's not even true. They just don't get items as fast as everyone else, or as big items.
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They are basic outlines before I start labeling the hero builds list. They are imperfect by nature of builds are flexible.
The defining terms are less important and the titles are what is important. I can just remove the descriptors to avoid disagreement on minute details.
Just put all supports in the Support category, offlaners in the Offlane category.
Because I prefer the term either be encompassing to the variety of heroes that accommodate the roles or useful for the user. I dislike the core/support terms because they are too blanket, but I understand if we get more detailed, then the labels will be useless (too many diverse options would make them meaningless).
Spirit Breaker and Night Stalker are not non-supports just because they roam/are aggressive.
Double-negative
The Hero Builds Project fights between matching the current standard of play and persuading (sometimes dated) perceptions of standard plays/expectations.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 09 2016 05:06 Torte de Lini wrote:
Because I prefer the term either be encompassing to the variety of heroes that accommodate the roles or useful for the user. I dislike the core/support terms because they are too blanket, but I understand if we get more detailed, then the labels will be useless (too many diverse options would make them meaningless).
It IS useful for the user.
For the purposes of low-level play, a support is a hero that doesn't get lane farm early game and generally prioritizes fight participation and team objectives (e.g. pushing/defending towers) over personal development at all stages of the game. That is a very meaningful amount of information for single-word tag to encompass about how to play a hero.
There are nuances and exceptions (in particular, better support players will know when they're not needed at a fight or when their upcoming item is more important and can eke out more farm this way) but for the purpose of guide-level play, that's essentially the entirety of what the "support" term implies.
The bare minimum goal of the support tag is to prevent people picking these heroes, going to safelane and fighting their carry for lasthits rather than doing useful things. This is why labeling supports with tags that imply being a laner that gets farm ("offlane" and "core") is troublesome because you create situations where people will fight with their teammates for farm when they shouldn't. Initiating supports aren't "offlane" because they aren't going to get lane farm during the laning phase while the offlaner is--and the initiating support going with the offlaner and leeching off his farm is going to actively cause friction in the team.
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I mean, even if you feel the terms are ambiguous, "support" is the least ambiguous and most useful of the three.
Even a 1k player understands that it denotes a hero who doesn't contest lasthits in lane. The Valve tutorial introduces the role via the KotL that follows you around, and it's one of the Valve hero tags. "Utility" and other variations are far less clear.
I still don't understand why you keep trying to push supports into other roles.
On March 09 2016 05:06 Torte de Lini wrote:They are basic outlines before I start labeling the hero builds list. They are imperfect by nature of builds are flexible. The defining terms are less important and the titles are what is important. I can just remove the descriptors to avoid disagreement on minute details. Show nested quote +Just put all supports in the Support category, offlaners in the Offlane category. Because I prefer the term either be encompassing to the variety of heroes that accommodate the roles or useful for the user. I dislike the core/support terms because they are too blanket, but I understand if we get more detailed, then the labels will be useless (too many diverse options would make them meaningless).
This in particular is unclear to me. What do you mean by "useful"? As Yango explained, a support term is very useful and communicates far more about the player's gameplan than what lane they go to. "Offlane" is also fairly straightforward as a word. The most ambiguous term is "core", but unfortunately I haven't yet seen an alternative that's better.
It's not that too many options would make them meaningless. Having detailed categories would make them more meaningful. The ideal scenario is to have something like
safelane carry
farming mid
tempo mid
farming offlane
tempo offlane
roaming support
laning support
jungling support
jungling core
...but that many categories is completely unmanageable, so we find a way to compress those into more general roles.
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Core and Support is too all-around but narrow in definition.
I feel it's a split-expectation that can lead to [mis]interpretation.
Core cover 2-3 farm priority roles [higher] and Support covers 2-3 farm priority roles [lower]. My mindset is based on expectations and team-fighting role and goals throughout the different phases of the game (Early/Mid/Late).
In the end, they are the best and most conventional labels considering.
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United States47024 Posts
Core covers farm priority 1-2 and sometimes 3.
Nobody ever refers to the 3rd position hero as a support. Even when the offlaner ends up poorer or there's a rich jungler, the offlaner isn't referred to as a support.
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There are games where the difference between the offlaner and a jungler or roaming support is purely notational because either the offlaner isn't spending much time in lane or a nominal support ends up getting just as much farm out of the dual lane. In both cases, the nominal offlaner is effectively playing as position 4.
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I still don't see what misinterpretation is possible around the support role. It is clear. It denotes a position 4-5 who does not take lane farm and uses their time to prioritize team objectives.
The main issue with "core" is whether or not a 1k player recognises the term. I think in most cases it's probably good enough but we can discuss alternatives.
I've already talked about the ambiguity in offlane, although none of that ambiguity stems from the word itself. We could remove the role entirely if you prefer.
On March 09 2016 06:42 Torte de Lini wrote:
Core and Support is too all-around but narrow in definition.
I feel it's a split-expectation that can lead to [mis]interpretation.
To be honest, I still have no idea what you mean when you say this. What does narrow in definition mean, here? What is an example of a misinterpretation that you are worried about?
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In the end, if no one thinks another label/role should be added (I don't) or any of the current ones suggested should be renamed (looks like it).
Then we'll move on to breaking down which guides are to be categorized/deleted, etc. and then we can use "Sub-roles" to better distinguish expectations.
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I made a chart. I'm not going to let something so trivial as the end of the discussion stop me posting it.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HyO7Aco.png) EDIT: really there should be a tempo safelane category and farming mid should probably be 1/2, but I really cba changing it now
I think that does show the advantages of a core/offlane/support split over the current system.
The lane system compresses a lot more roles into the "lane" category, and those are often very different roles (eg. carry vs support), which forces us to ignore one role for heroes who can do both. Core-based categories give a more even split, and group roles which are more similar, which makes it easier to cover the differences via tabs.
Ultimately I think it lets you cover more possibilities in a smaller number of guides, and also relates better to what the player's goals are for the game.
Anyway if we're happy with that then yes, by all means go ahead and start on the details. I've already said what I think makes sense on a guide-by-guide basis.
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In pub games, the mid is often position 1 (in 212 or 112J configurations, ESPECIALLY at low MMR) and the jungler is sometimes position 2 (in 211J with an aggressive dual lane)
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
to differentiate between core and support, you only have to ask a simple question
"am i supposed to get the last hits in this lane?"
if the answer is yes, then ur a core. if the answer is no, then ur a support
how is this so difficult lmao
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SoCal8910 Posts
i understand where torte is cominmg from even though i don't agree with it. he wants to be slightly more specific about what the hero's role is. i dont think that specificity can be done in a guide mostly because people use the guides purely for itemization and skill builds, not how to learn to play their hero as a "roamer" vs a "lane support"
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Specificity is fine, it just comes at a price. That price is needing more guides per hero and so we have to find a compromise.
I do think it's worth naming the support guides of a few specific heroes as "roam". That would be useful both for PR reasons ("I'm not subscribing to a guide for support pudge wtf" vs. "oh roam yeh that means kill ppl ok"), and to communicate the fairly unique way the hero needs to be played from the beginning of the game.
Heroes in mind would be techies, pudge, BH, mirana and spiritbreaker. I realise there are a lot of supports that want to roam to some extent, so this is a bit arbitrary, but a hero like techies simply does not function unless it is moving around and that's useful to communicate.
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yes, I was considering the "roaming" title either as an alternative for support or maintain consistency and keep them as support.
Below is the protocol established for the next comings month. I suspect a patch will occur after Manila so this is an ideal time.
In-client UX changes to Dota 2 will most likely happen before Manila however.
Coming steps
1. Establish Title/Subtitles (finalization)
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2. Friday/Monday -> reddit post detailing a new system transition:
2.1 Flaws with current system
2.1.1 additional labour and time-spent for overlapping/redundant builds
2.1.2 nearing maximum allotted amount of hero builds (147 out of 150 with Pit Lord planned)
2.1.3 Guides aiming to be closer to role flexibility that recent patches have created (e.g. Kunkka Support/Bounty Hunter Support)
2.1.4 will lower total number of guides, allowing more room for new meta builds from future patches
2.2 Simplified breakdown of new build and titles
2.2.1 Include titles and subtitles (with image)
2.2.2 Include split starting items if room
2.2.3 Include obligation to reduce situational/extension items to ensure both starting items fit
2.3 Include planned # of builds to be deleted + # of subscriptions predicted to lose
2.3.1 Mention that ratings will help get the newly created builds back into the game
2.3.2 Mention that subscription loss is necessary to implement new build system and will hopefully regrow within the next 6 (estimated) months
2.3.3 Mention Suggestions for new builds are welcomed
2.4 Set planned time for implementation/transition
2.4.1 [Off-hand] -> End of April if no patch changes or life issues
2.5 Credit contributors
2.5.1 Credit contributors + Patreon supporters
2.5.2 Plug patreon link + paypal one-time donations
(2.5.3 Ensure split accounted for for one-time donations to contributors)
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3. Planning Phase
3.1 Establish Hero Builds categorization
3.2 Ensure Guides deleted are the least popular versions (lesser number of subs lost)
3.3 Establish Changed Builds include split Starting items if necessary
3.4 Dissect itemization for hero builds + skill builds
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4. Execution
4.1 Deleted Hero Builds to be wiped clean -> planned-to-be-deleted builds will have tabs recommending subscribing users to subscribe to the new guides
4.1.2 Planned to be deleted Hero Builds to be wiped 2-3 months (undecided) after transition
4.1.3 Titles of planned to be deleted hero builds will not be updated if patch occurs
4.2 Change titles for unchanged Hero Builds
4.3 Then adjust established hero builds with new itemization
4.4 Then create new hero builds
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5. Announce Changes
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EPT
