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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 292

Forum Index > The Tavern
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Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-15 18:36:00
March 14 2016 19:02 GMT
#5821
[image loading]

1 million unique for Enigma

If interested in a timeline of 1 million hits and milestones, you can check it here: http://steamcommunity.com/id/0825771

https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1364 Posts
March 14 2016 19:33 GMT
#5822
The current Nyx builds don't seem to be very different:
1) Support has courier/wards as starting items; mid skips them and a clarity for bottle rush. Mid's starting items are a subset of the support's, though.
2) Support has an extra Utility tab.
3) Skill ranks from levels 1-4 are taken in a different order.

The remaining levels and situational/luxury item groups are identical.
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-14 23:05:13
March 14 2016 21:27 GMT
#5823
my reasoning for deletion is that I do not want to delete any guides in the near future (2+ years hopefully). I'd rather delete everything in one swift to reduce blowback than to slowly remove more and more things to avoid redundancy

In other words, if we're deleting, let's be swift and decisive on which guides

If that's the case then I'd delete everything in categories 1-3 in my second post.
+ Show Spoiler +
1. , , , , , , , ,
2. (C), (C), (C), (C)
3. (C), (S), (S)


However, would you mind explaining why you want this to be the case?

My understanding is that deleting a guide would not actually require much time compared to maintaining it, and barring system-level changes like this one, any guides we delete in future would necessarily have few subscribers and so create minimal blowback. To me it makes sense to simply remove them as the space becomes needed and their obsolescence becomes clear.

Importantly, a strategy of occasional but aggressive culling is directly at odds with this sentiment:
Show nested quote +
Nobody is more likely to rail against jungle cores than me, but despite my frustration jungle LC is a pub staple now. I don't think we can ignore it. We also have a spare guide with a lot of subscribers that we would otherwise delete. Converting mid to jungle seems obvious here.


I'll reconsider only because Mid and Lane are so similar, but it saddens me to reinstate it

We cannot know what icefrog will do. LC jungle was complete trash for several patches and you were justified in deleting it. And then along came Iron Talon, and it became a pub favourite overnight. Nobody could have predicted that.

I guarantee that at least one of the guides you delete now will end up being relevant again in future. That's just the way it goes. We can do the best we can to minimise it by being careful about what we select, but at some point the frog will screw us over, and when that happens you're going to need to be assertive in accepting the change and bringing the guide back, or risk missing the subscriber wave.

Importantly, this is far more likely to happen if you undertake periodic mass culls. If you remove things slowly you can watch the patches, see what he's buffing, and hold off on deleting eg. mid leshrac two patches before it explodes into the pro scene. If you kill things all at once every 3 years, we don't have those nuances and so we're more likely to get it wrong.

To me, aggressive deletion needs to be paired with aggressive reinstatement. That's fine if you chose to do so, but you can't afford any of this moping around lamenting how sad it is that you had to bring a guide back.

In terms of priority, I place Void and Tusk Core as high and Veno and VS core as low

I don't understand why you consider this to be the case, but it's up to you.

EDIT: to be clear, I think core veno is trash and never wanted it added, but core VS is regularly used in pro matches while core void is a relic from before the remake and core tusk is a silly pub build for a hero on the downswing of its meta cycle.

I am happy to wait and see, but it doesn't make sense to add the others and reject venge.
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-14 21:34:51
March 14 2016 21:34 GMT
#5824
I feel like any guide that relies on Iron Talon to be viable (i.e jungle LC) should probably wait a patch or 2 before it becomes a guide. The only way I'd make an exception is the conversion of an existing guide, which I guess does apply here.
Logo
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-14 22:11:38
March 14 2016 22:09 GMT
#5825
On March 15 2016 06:27 Belisarius wrote:
EDIT: to be clear, I think core veno is trash and never wanted it added, but core VS is regularly used in pro matches while core void is a relic from before the remake and core tusk is a silly pub build for a hero on the downswing of its meta cycle.

I agree with all of these.

On March 15 2016 06:34 Logo wrote:
I feel like any guide that relies on Iron Talon to be viable (i.e jungle LC) should probably wait a patch or 2 before it becomes a guide. The only way I'd make an exception is the conversion of an existing guide, which I guess does apply here.

I would also point out that given how aggressively Icefrog chose to nerf the Moment of Courage cooldown that he was expressly pushing for the hero NOT to be a jungler, despite that being one of her strengths at release. That Iron Talon pushed her back into the jungle is a complete accident, and at odds with Icefrog's general trends toward the hero.
Moderator
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-14 22:17:58
March 14 2016 22:15 GMT
#5826
On March 15 2016 07:09 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2016 06:27 Belisarius wrote:
EDIT: to be clear, I think core veno is trash and never wanted it added, but core VS is regularly used in pro matches while core void is a relic from before the remake and core tusk is a silly pub build for a hero on the downswing of its meta cycle.

I agree with all of these.

Sorry, as in you agree that they should all be added, or you agree with my assessment?

On March 15 2016 07:09 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2016 06:34 Logo wrote:
I feel like any guide that relies on Iron Talon to be viable (i.e jungle LC) should probably wait a patch or 2 before it becomes a guide. The only way I'd make an exception is the conversion of an existing guide, which I guess does apply here.

I would also point out that given how aggressively Icefrog chose to nerf the Moment of Courage cooldown that he was expressly pushing for the hero NOT to be a jungler, despite that being one of her strengths at release. That Iron Talon pushed her back into the jungle is a complete accident, and at odds with Icefrog's general trends toward the hero.

I agree with both of you, but at the end of the day we still have a spare guide with nearly 1mil subscribers. I really don't think it's a good idea to axe it until icefrog pushes her out of the jungle for good.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
March 14 2016 22:26 GMT
#5827
With your assessment.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-14 23:11:50
March 14 2016 23:11 GMT
#5828
On March 15 2016 06:27 Belisarius wrote:
Show nested quote +
my reasoning for deletion is that I do not want to delete any guides in the near future (2+ years hopefully). I'd rather delete everything in one swift to reduce blowback than to slowly remove more and more things to avoid redundancy

In other words, if we're deleting, let's be swift and decisive on which guides

If that's the case then I'd delete everything in categories 1-3 in my second post.
+ Show Spoiler +
1. , , , , , , , ,
2. (C), (C), (C), (C)
3. (C), (S), (S)


However, would you mind explaining why you want this to be the case?

My understanding is that deleting a guide would not actually require much time compared to maintaining it, and barring system-level changes like this one, any guides we delete in future would necessarily have few subscribers and so create minimal blowback. To me it makes sense to simply remove them as the space becomes needed and their obsolescence becomes clear.

Importantly, a strategy of occasional but aggressive culling is directly at odds with this sentiment:

It is purely to avoid change and alienating users. Also in terms of messaging, I can't announce each and every little change, so to do things in large orders gives me enough to "talk about" to justify making a post.

Deleting guides takes no effort, but converting users takes time to build. Just sudden changes as a whole without the ability to message sits uneasy


Show nested quote +
Nobody is more likely to rail against jungle cores than me, but despite my frustration jungle LC is a pub staple now. I don't think we can ignore it. We also have a spare guide with a lot of subscribers that we would otherwise delete. Converting mid to jungle seems obvious here.


I'll reconsider only because Mid and Lane are so similar, but it saddens me to reinstate it

We cannot know what icefrog will do. LC jungle was complete trash for several patches and you were justified in deleting it. And then along came Iron Talon, and it became a pub favourite overnight. Nobody could have predicted that.

I guarantee that at least one of the guides you delete now will end up being relevant again in future. That's just the way it goes. We can do the best we can to minimize it by being careful about what we select, but at some point the frog will screw us over, and when that happens you're going to need to be assertive in accepting the change and bringing the guide back, or risk missing the subscriber wave.

Importantly, this is far more likely to happen if you undertake periodic mass culls. If you remove things slowly you can watch the patches, see what he's buffing, and hold off on deleting eg. mid leshrac two patches before it explodes into the pro scene. If you kill things all at once every 3 years, we don't have those nuances and so we're more likely to get it wrong.

To me, aggressive deletion needs to be paired with aggressive reinstatement. That's fine if you chose to do so, but you can't afford any of this moping around lamenting how sad it is that you had to bring a guide back.

understood

Show nested quote +
In terms of priority, I place Void and Tusk Core as high and Veno and VS core as low

I don't understand why you consider this to be the case, but it's up to you.

EDIT: to be clear, I think core veno is trash and never wanted it added, but core VS is regularly used in pro matches while core void is a relic from before the remake and core tusk is a silly pub build for a hero on the downswing of its meta cycle.

I am happy to wait and see, but it doesn't make sense to add the others and reject venge.

I don't think I completely know what Veno - Core is (is it Shadow Blade or max Q/W?). But Faceless Void and Core Tusk are both niche picks. I have never seen VS - Core though. My fear with VS - Core is how variable it is. We can hold off on all four until we see how things play out in the future


On March 15 2016 06:34 Logo wrote:
I feel like any guide that relies on Iron Talon to be viable (i.e jungle LC) should probably wait a patch or 2 before it becomes a guide. The only way I'd make an exception is the conversion of an existing guide, which I guess does apply here.


I feel similar, but right now, Lycan (Jungle) has Iron Talon and it is working out well.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
March 14 2016 23:17 GMT
#5829
Because Lycan was always a functional jungle hero even before Talon. Talon just made it better.

Jungle LC got crushed by the Moment nerf because 2.7s Moment CD meant your farming speed was excruciatingly slow. Only Talon's massive boost to jungling speed made it any good again.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
March 14 2016 23:19 GMT
#5830
Although I do dislike Jungle Legion, I can see the problem that we have an extra guide with 0 applicability.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-15 04:08:46
March 14 2016 23:24 GMT
#5831
It is purely to avoid change and alienating users. Also in terms of messaging, I can't announce each and every little change, so to do things in large orders gives me enough to "talk about" to justify making a post.

Deleting guides takes no effort, but converting users takes time to build. Just sudden changes as a whole without the ability to message sits uneasy

That's fair, although I do wonder how many of your subscribers actually read your announcements. My guess is it's a very small percentage.

So for add/delete, we're currently at:

Keep:
(C), (->S), (C), (J), (->J)

Add:
(S), QE, (S), (O), (C/O)

Delete:
, , , , , , , ,
(C), (C), (C), (C), (C), (S), (S)

Consider:
(C), (O), (C), (S),
(C), (O), (C), (O/C), (C)

Is that correct?
Velzi
Profile Joined June 2012
Finland659 Posts
March 14 2016 23:58 GMT
#5832
How can we keep support WR if it doesnt exist in the first place?

Pudge is pretty much always played as pos4 roaming support nowadays, its been like this for atleast a year already, time to change mid->support?

ET mid isnt really a thing anymore, remove?
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you to their level and then beat you with experience. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/115305822 https://yasp.co/players/115305822
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
March 15 2016 00:04 GMT
#5833
Is there a key difference between Core and Middle?

I feel Middle could be a more sub-title grouping as well or should we distinguish guides as being purely for Mid-lane?
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-15 00:32:46
March 15 2016 00:05 GMT
#5834
We have two WR guides at the moment. Currently, one is mid and one is lane but both build dps. We change one to core, no questions. Therefore the choice is between deleting the other or setting it to support. "Keep" is probably a bit unclear, but the inertia is in the subscribers, not in whatever the guide is currently set to.

The existing pudge guide should definitely switch to support/roam.

My position on the two ETs is the same as my position on the two warlocks. The hero is unplayed at the moment, and virtually guaranteed to get a buff next patch, but it's a coinflip as to whether icefrog buffs the core or support version. Therefore it's a bad time to delete either.

On March 15 2016 09:04 Torte de Lini wrote:
Is there a key difference between Core and Middle?

I feel Middle could be a more sub-title grouping as well or should we distinguish guides as being purely for Mid-lane?

imo there is no significant difference between core and middle that can't be expressed in tabs. That's the premise the core/support/offlane thing is based on. If we decide that the differences between core and mid are significant enough to warrant separate guides, we may as well scrap the whole thing because your guide numbers balloon right back out.

If you really wanted you could call some core guides "mid" when the hero is exclusively played mid, but I don't think that's necessary.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
March 15 2016 00:51 GMT
#5835
Whenever these changes go live you're probably going to want to add a very short definition to core to the guides that got that tag added, as while it is a very common term it isn't ubiquitous and isn't used by valve officially. Something like "Core refers to a hero with high farm priority" as the first line of the guide would probably solve a lot of confusion.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
March 15 2016 18:27 GMT
#5836
[image loading]

1 million unique for Rubick

If interested in a timeline of 1 million hits and milestones, you can check it here: http://steamcommunity.com/id/0825771

https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
March 15 2016 18:37 GMT
#5837
Side-note, that's #55, meaning half of the total number of heroes (111) have now hit their 1 million unique mark.

Good achievement.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
March 15 2016 19:30 GMT
#5838
On March 15 2016 08:24 Belisarius wrote:
Show nested quote +
It is purely to avoid change and alienating users. Also in terms of messaging, I can't announce each and every little change, so to do things in large orders gives me enough to "talk about" to justify making a post.

Deleting guides takes no effort, but converting users takes time to build. Just sudden changes as a whole without the ability to message sits uneasy

That's fair, although I do wonder how many of your subscribers actually read your announcements. My guess is it's a very small percentage.

So for add/delete, we're currently at:

Keep:
(C), (->S), (C), (J), (->J)

Add:
(S), QE, (S), (O), (C/O)

Delete:
, , , , , , , ,
(C), (C), (C), (C), (C), (S), (S)

Consider:
(C), (O), (C), (S),
(C), (O), (C), (O/C), (C)

Is that correct?

Only one of these I find questionable is Earth Spirit, mostly because I don't think we can easily get a good read on what direction Icefrog wants to push the hero.
Moderator
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-15 22:19:00
March 15 2016 22:17 GMT
#5839
I agree, I would also prefer to keep earth spirit, myself.

I'm also not sure we do need another prophet, now. In general I think it's better to keep Jungle and non-Jungle guides separate, but prophet skills and builds pretty much the same whether he's laning or not.

The existing guide could probably just be called "Core" with a jungle starting/early tab, provided that is clear enough.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
March 15 2016 22:18 GMT
#5840
Separate guide for NP is fine because the current build and variety of it takes up the entire Recommended Items page
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
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