EPTIn-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 285
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
That said, I'm not sure how we should actually skill for the guide. Part of using the early max cleave effectively is holding the skill points before you need them so you don't inadvertently push the wave at a time where you don't want to (e.g. 1-0-1 + hold 3 skill points and mass-skill cleave at 6 or 7 to push the T1). It might be right for the guide to be something like 2-0-2 into max Cleave at 9, idk. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
torte, TBH I think blink on sven should be situational. sven's goal for the first 10-15 minutes of the game is to get enough farm so that when minute ~20-25 comes around, he's a complete power house. I have literally never had a good boots, blink, anything game bc while its great you have the blink..its a known fact that the enemy team will always have more disable than you. unless you 2 shot a support and snowball, im gonna suggest that HOTD come first. similarly, idk if you were watching any of the games, but I've seen a couple voids going vlads into blink. just sayin  On February 25 2016 07:27 Torte de Lini wrote: Blink replaced Force Staff which was: BKB -> Force I swapped it out for the W + Blink Combo. Drums -> Blink -> BKB sounds good to me, but I am not seeing consistent results/usability in pubs to gauge its mainstay placement. this build has given me the most success by far. drums and blink give you the mobility you desperately need due to your short range and blink ofc allows you to escape after astral in a hairy position. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 27 2016 04:02 Velzi wrote: For Sven, u can clear ancient Stacks with max w and max e but if u are 4-4-1 or 4-1-4, taking stacks aint so easy. Also if u are not planning to fight with Sven until SnY Blink HotD, u might aswell max ur farming speed over maxing ur killing potential. Some lanes where u struggle to get farm u might aswell go 2-0-2 or something and then max cleave. But if lane is easy, u usually keep ur points and take cleave when u start farming both jungle and lane. Sun Ray is Phoenix's best skill, thats why u max it. Spirit max is really only better when u are solo offlane vs dual melee lane or something u can really bully with. Especially support Phoenix should max e almost always. For the build, 1-4-4 over 4-4-1 should be standard, whether u want to max w or e should be situational. (again for the build maxing r>w>e>q is fine if u feel like maxing e is still not standard enough) There are two Phoenix guides. I think Core Phoenix should stay Spirits first and Support Phoenix (mid and lane right now but good enough) could go Sunray first. Even if it's a little out of meta I think the fundamental reasoning for spirits first is good enough to keep it in a guide when we have 2 of them. Ray first seems to only really be a result of ray being buffed a bit after a round of nerfs to spirits. To me it seems a pretty razor thin margin between the two so I'd expect it to be back and forth between the two based on even really minor changes. There's really little point in an offlane phoenix if you're not running it into a lane that can be bullied by spirits or its a game where Phoenix can really aggressively chase heroes with spirits (or spirits -> aggressive egg). | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On February 27 2016 05:39 BluemoonSC wrote: truthfully, the guide has skill descriptions for a reason. I know that people may not read them, however if you're learning the hero for the first time, at some point you're gonna hover over it and notice the text. torte, TBH I think blink on sven should be situational. sven's goal for the first 10-15 minutes of the game is to get enough farm so that when minute ~20-25 comes around, he's a complete power house. I have literally never had a good boots, blink, anything game bc while its great you have the blink..its a known fact that the enemy team will always have more disable than you. unless you 2 shot a support and snowball, im gonna suggest that HOTD come first. similarly, idk if you were watching any of the games, but I've seen a couple voids going vlads into blink. just sayin this build has given me the most success by far. drums and blink give you the mobility you desperately need due to your short range and blink ofc allows you to escape after astral in a hairy position.  : I will try it myself before making the change. I am thinking:1 point in Stun 1 point in Warcry then max Cleave -> max Warcry Item build: Mango, Stout, Tango, Salve Boots, Quelling Blade Treads, HOTD, Yasha, Blink S&Y, BKB Daedalus/Satanic - yes I saw that, I'll take another look at past tournaments and switch them if necessary It's already applied | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
anyway, said it at the beginning of the patch and i can't wait to see the vlads before blink actually make it in so my voids stop building like morons. the vlads gives you so much mre than boots and a blink dagger when your chrono is down. | ||
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Verniy
Canada3360 Posts
Mushi: 1 in stun, 1 in warcry BurNinG: 2 in stun, 1 in warcry Aggressif: 1 in stun, 2 in warcry Cty: 1 in stun, 1 in warcry | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
I think 1-4-1-1 into 1-4-4-2 is still the build. If you really want you could make support phx something like 1-2-2-1 into 1-2-4-1 but I'm not sold. | ||
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
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United States7542 Posts
On February 27 2016 11:47 Belisarius wrote: Yeah I'm not convinced by beam max phoenix. It seems like a specific build for when your team wants to 5-man early and hard while you're still underlevelled, and that rarely happens in pubs. You also lose a ton of laning utility, when phoenix's cancerous laning pressure is half the reason you pick her. I think 1-4-1-1 into 1-4-4-2 is still the build. If you really want you could make support phx something like 1-2-2-1 into 1-2-4-1 but I'm not sold. Yeah I totally buy this and the other comments being made about beam first. I think it comes down not just to if you're going to 5 man, but also the lanes. I don't know how much zoning comes into the picture though; level 1 you need dive almost always because it's a huge risk not to have it (and the cases where you can take that risk you can probably zone an offlaner with just right clicks). Then spirit's level 1 is pretty underwhelming; it's max 160 magic damage every 40 seconds if you land all of the spirits, but that's really pretty comparable to something like Poison Touch. Level 2+ Spirits takes off dramatically, but then you're already talking about a support being level 3 which should be a bit beyond the critical period of zoning the offlane. On top of that ray's damage holds up pretty well when you consider it's a 20s cooldown (though this puts a big strain on Phoenix's mana) and is dealing pure damage. So I can see both sides of it I think. Regardless 1-4-1-1 or 2-4-1-1 are still the builds for offlane though I'm pretty confident in that and they're still fine builds for support really. | ||
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Velzi
Finland659 Posts
1) run at u so u can dodge the ray, but then u are out of position 2) run away and eat full duration damage from ray which most likely kills u. Its like playing vs enchantress, if run to enchantress, u wont take that much damage but u compromise ur position and if u run away from enchantress, u take massive damage (potentially 270+45% max health as PURE), which is most of time something around 55%-70% of ur max health (from 1000-2700 max hp range). Where as spirits deal maximum of 1120 MAGICAL damage IF u hit every single spirit and chain them perfectly. There is no backfire in running away from phoenix without sunray because spirits are fairly easy to dodge if the distance is not like 400 units or something and especially if u are running straight away, not jerking around. I do agree maxing spirits is good in certain situations and especially if u are new to phoenix and not very confident about ur sunray because it is not the easiest spell to hit with. Maxing ray is better in so many situations especially as a support (which im not huge fan to begin with but its still a thing i guess) and as a offlaner vs certain lanes. Thing with phoenix is that if u are against trilane u cant trade with maxed spirits, u should max out e imo. But if u can stay on levels thx to maxed spirits, thats obvious choice. As long as we are not taking more than one dive before maxing w and e we are fine and we are paying attention to why pros are maxing e>w for future changes, i can live with it, for now. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Sven, I am testing this weekend. Going to publish the changes and post stats tomorrow. | ||
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United States7542 Posts
On February 27 2016 19:24 Velzi wrote: I think u guys are underestimating how good maxed beam is, how it turns fights and makes enemy have to decide to either 1) run at u so u can dodge the ray, but then u are out of position 2) run away and eat full duration damage from ray which most likely kills u. Its like playing vs enchantress, if run to enchantress, u wont take that much damage but u compromise ur position and if u run away from enchantress, u take massive damage (potentially 270+45% max health as PURE), which is most of time something around 55%-70% of ur max health (from 1000-2700 max hp range). Where as spirits deal maximum of 1120 MAGICAL damage IF u hit every single spirit and chain them perfectly. There is no backfire in running away from phoenix without sunray because spirits are fairly easy to dodge if the distance is not like 400 units or something and especially if u are running straight away, not jerking around. I do agree maxing spirits is good in certain situations and especially if u are new to phoenix and not very confident about ur sunray because it is not the easiest spell to hit with. Maxing ray is better in so many situations especially as a support (which im not huge fan to begin with but its still a thing i guess) and as a offlaner vs certain lanes. Thing with phoenix is that if u are against trilane u cant trade with maxed spirits, u should max out e imo. But if u can stay on levels thx to maxed spirits, thats obvious choice. As long as we are not taking more than one dive before maxing w and e we are fine and we are paying attention to why pros are maxing e>w for future changes, i can live with it, for now. I think the thing is as offlane you are getting the levels fast anyways so you expect both skills maxed relatively early on in the game. In that case the advantage of spirits, besides contesting the lane, is that they present the better way to solo (or close to solo) a enemy. Like Dive -> Spirits early on is really difficult for most heroes to contest (especially with Urn) if you go 1-4 or 2-4. You can't trade attacks into it because Phoenix is just flat out going to win that trade and doubly so with the threat of egg while you have reduced attack speed and phoenix is already on top of you (so getting that distance to dodge spirits is difficult). But if you go ray first Phoenix loses that independence. If you try to ray someone solo they have a lot of options. They can go perpendicular to your ray (especially at close range) to dodge it or just outrun it and of course if they have a disable they can just use that. With back up the ray is a lot stronger, but if you're trying to be the aggressive playmaker from the offlane I don't think that matches up with ray first (keeping in mind you'll have max ray relatively early overall so we're only concerned about the 8-10 level range). I think it's maybe time to change the guide back to 2-4-4 or 1-4-4 instead of 4-4-0 first. With the nerf to fire spirit damage I don't think dive levels extend your killing potential in the same way it did before. Before the nerfs with dive levels you just kept enough power to stay threatening to heroes from 8-10, but now you're already missing 40dmg/spirit compared to back then so the dive levels don't have the same impact as before. Plus ray is a lot better now of course. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
This is the bigger picture. BTW we're definitely talking about support Phoenix right? No pro games in recent memory have had a support Phoenix to say that e>w lol | ||
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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7086 Posts
On February 28 2016 03:24 BluemoonSC wrote: With egg taking 5 hits to kill, you can't have 1 pt into spirits as a support. I'd argue that her ult going off for a 2nd sunray (and the stun) is more important than 1 maxed sun ray and the ult not finishing. This is the bigger picture. BTW we're definitely talking about support Phoenix right? No pro games in recent memory have had a support Phoenix to say that e>w lol ? EHOME picked support Phoenix in just about every game they played and maxed beam over spirits every time http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2176498930 http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2176558984 http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2177549858 http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2177005584 Fy maxed beam too in the one game he played Phoenix http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2178692811 | ||
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Verniy
Canada3360 Posts
On February 28 2016 03:24 BluemoonSC wrote: fy Phoenix (vs Fnatic)BTW we're definitely talking about support Phoenix right? No pro games in recent memory have had a support Phoenix to say that e>w lol kaka Phoenix (vs Secret) kaka Phoenix (vs CDEC) kaka Phoenix (vs MVP) kaka Phoenix (vs MVP) in the 2 games vs MVP kaka skilled Ray first (EQEWEREWWWR) in the other 3 games the build was QEEWEREWWWR | ||
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United States7542 Posts
On February 28 2016 03:24 BluemoonSC wrote: With egg taking 5 hits to kill, you can't have 1 pt into spirits as a support. I'd argue that her ult going off for a 2nd sunray (and the stun) is more important than 1 maxed sun ray and the ult not finishing. This is the bigger picture. BTW we're definitely talking about support Phoenix right? No pro games in recent memory have had a support Phoenix to say that e>w lol You're certainly trading some of the 7-9 egg power for ray, but the egg is still really usable in a more supporting way. The overall tradeoff is that beam influences the teamfight a lot more at the expense of the egg. So you don't want to just dive in, drop spirits, and egg right away of course. Instead you're spending the first 6 seconds of the fight dishing out heavy damage with the ray then using dive->egg and your remaining spirit(s) to clean up the fight (or if you get dropped out of beam using that earlier). In most cases the beam is more damage over its duration than level 1 egg. Even without the % effect of ray ray will do more damage than supernova because it's pure damage THEN on top of that you're adding 36% of a hero's life total. So it's a very effective spell at dropping a single target (or even multiple in some cases). It starts getting tilted even more when you're considering that you are healing a core as well (if your positioning is good). I'm trying to grind out some phoenix support games with ray max first as I can so I'll try and share feedback when I can. 1st test was a success even without a particularly well suited team for it. I was mostly making use of a Dragon Knight stun and mirana arrow to land beam, but that was enough for good early game kills. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Added Healing Salve to Starting Items Added Iron Talon to Early Game Added Magic Wand to Core Items Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items Moved Power Treads to Early Game Moved Bottle to Situational Items Moved Sange and Yasha to Extension Items Removed Iron Branch x2 Removed Abyssal Blade Removed Quelling Blade Legion Commander (Middle) Removed Iron Branch x3 Added Iron Talon to Early Game Added Magic Wand to Core Items Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items Moved Power Treads to Early Game Moved Sange and Yasha to Extension Items Removed Iron Branch x2 Removed Abyssal Blade Removed Quelling Blade Drow Ranger Added Shadow Blade to Situational Items Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items Removed Silver Edge Removed Mask of Madness  EnchantressNew Skill Build: W E Q Q Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Untouchable 2. Nature's Attendants 3. Enchant) Added Moon Shard to Extension Items Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items Removed Hand of Midas Removed Shiva's Guard  MagnusNew Skill Build: Q E Q E Q R Q W W W R W E E R (1. Shockwave 2. Empower 3. Skewer) Added Linken's Sphere to Situational Items Moved Guardian Greaves to Extension Items Crystal Maiden Added Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items Removed Scythe of Vyse  Alchemist (Middle)New Skill Build: E Q Q E Q R W Q E E R W W W R (1. Acid Spray 2. Greevil's Greed 3. Unstable Concoction) Added Mjolnnir to Extension Items Moved Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items Moved Monkey King Bar to Luxury Items Removed Boots of Travel - Level 2 Alchemist (Lane)New Skill Build: E Q W Q W R Q Q W W R E E E R (1. Acid Spray 2. Unstable Concoction 3. Greevil's Greed) Added Hand of Midas to Situational Items Added Silver Edge to Situational Items Moved Blink Dagger to Core Items Moved Solar Crest to Extension Items Moved Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items Moved Monkey King Bar to Luxury Items Removed Magic Wand Removed Boots of Travel - Level 2  JuggernautNew Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q W W W R E E E (1. Blade Fury 2. Healing Ward 3. Blade Dance) Keeper of the Light New Skill Build: W E E Q E Q Q Q R W WW E R R (1. Illuminate 2. Mana Leak 3. Chakra Magic)  VenomancerAdded Tranquil Boots to Core Items Moved Force Staff to Extension Items Moved Blink Dagger to Extension Items Removed Arcane Boots Bounty Hunter Removed Pipe of Insight Removed Solar Crest Ember Spirit (Lane) Ember Spirit (Middle) Moved Manta Style to Situational Items Moved Eye of Skadi to Extension Items Oracle (Lane) Oracle (Middle) Created New Tab: "Utility Items" Added Flying Courier to "Utility Items" Added Observer Ward to "Utility Items" Added Sentry Ward to "Utility Items" Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items" Added Smoke of Deceit to "Utility Items" Moved Aether Lens to Core Items Moved Guardian Greaves to Extension Items Removed Mekansm  Warlock (Middle)Added Glimmer Cape to Extension Items Removed Scythe of Vyse Warlock (Lane)New Skill Build: E W W E E R E W W Q R Q Q Q R (1. Upheaval 2. Shadow Word 3. Fatal Bonds) Added Glimmer Cape to Extension Items Removed Scythe of Vyse Outworld Devourer Added Tango to Starting Items Added Drums of Endurance to Core Items Removed Faerie Fire x2  LichAdded Aether Lens to Extension Items Removed Scythe of Vyse  ViperAdded Healing Salve to Early Game To-Do 1. Update Contributor's List 2. Revise Build Categories (tentative thoughts: Middle, Jungle, Safe[lane], Off[lane], Support) 3. done 4. done 5. done | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
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