EPTIn-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 282
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On February 20 2016 08:50 Birdie wrote: Both BKB and Manta are situational, you don't want to get either of them ideally. I would prefer one separated from another, no? | ||
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
On February 20 2016 11:13 Torte de Lini wrote: I would prefer one separated from another, no? In terms of buying both in the same game, yeah you don't usually want to do that. But if you place them both in situational that means both are only in certain situations, I don't think that will make people buy both. Neither of them are core or extension or luxury. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Otherwise, your ideal case is always 5 damage items and any defensive item is a concession to things that are specifically dangerous to you. Skadi's also more situational than extension. It's timing isn't even necessarily after Crit, it depends on the two things it's good for which are 1) bulking up in games where you just have to have a big HP pool because your team has almost no teamfight control, and 2) neutering melee heroes that can't deal with permanent melee Skadi slow (5s Skadi duration for melee heroes on a 6s CD spell just makes some melee heroes completely useless). In games where both of these apply, it's very possible to get it before crit, though that is somewhat infrequent. | ||
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Velzi
Finland659 Posts
On February 20 2016 07:47 Torte de Lini wrote:  we can change the build to be more Max Q, 2 in E and max W by 8-13.Thoughts? Seems fine, as long as we are not 4-0-4-1 @lvl9 there is even something right happening. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Added Healing Salve to Starting Items Added Iron Talon to Early Game Added Magic Wand to Core Items Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items Moved Power Treads to Early Game Moved Bottle to Situational Items Moved Sange and Yasha to Extension Items Removed Iron Branch x2 Removed Abyssal Blade Removed Quelling Blade Legion Commander (Middle) Removed Iron Branch x3 Added Iron Talon to Early Game Added Magic Wand to Core Items Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items Moved Power Treads to Early Game Moved Bottle to Situational Items Moved Sange and Yasha to Extension Items Removed Iron Branch x2 Removed Abyssal Blade Removed Quelling Blade Drow Ranger Added Shadow Blade to Situational Items Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items Removed Silver Edge Removed Mask of Madness  EnchantressNew Skill Build: W E Q Q Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Untouchable 2. Nature's Attendants 3. Enchant) Added Moon Shard to Extension Items Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items Removed Hand of Midas Removed Shiva's Guard MagnusNew Skill Build: Q E Q E Q R Q W W W R W E E R (1. Shockwave 2. Empower 3. Skewer) Added Linken's Sphere to Situational Items Moved Guardian Greaves to Extension Items Crystal Maiden Added Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items Removed Scythe of Vyse  Alchemist (Middle)New Skill Build: E Q Q E Q R W Q E E R W W W R (1. Acid Spray 2. Greevil's Greed 3. Unstable Concoction) Added Mjolnnir to Extension Items Moved Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items Moved Monkey King Bar to Luxury Items Removed Boots of Travel - Level 2 Alchemist (Lane)New Skill Build: E Q W Q W R Q Q W W R E E E R (1. Acid Spray 2. Unstable Concoction 3. Greevil's Greed) Added Hand of Midas to Situational Items Added Silver Edge to Situational Items Moved Blink Dagger to Core Items Moved Solar Crest to Extension Items Moved Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items Moved Monkey King Bar to Luxury Items Removed Magic Wand Removed Boots of Travel - Level 2  JuggernautNew Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q W W W R E E E (1. Blade Fury 2. Healing Ward 3. Blade Dance) Keeper of the Light New Skill Build: W E E Q E Q Q Q R W WW E R R (1. Illuminate 2. Mana Leak 3. Chakra Magic)  VenomancerAdded Tranquil Boots to Core Items Moved Force Staff to Extension Items Moved Blink Dagger to Extension Items Removed Arcane Boots Bounty Hunter Removed Pipe of Insight Removed Solar Crest Ember Spirit (Lane) Ember Spirit (Middle) Moved Manta Style to Situational Items Moved Eye of Skadi to Extension Items Oracle (Lane) Oracle (Middle) Created New Tab: "Utility Items" Added Flying Courier to "Utility Items" Added Observer Ward to "Utility Items" Added Sentry Ward to "Utility Items" Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items" Added Smoke of Deceit to "Utility Items" Moved Aether Lens to Core Items Moved Guardian Greaves to Extension Items Removed Mekansm  Warlock (Middle)Added Glimmer Cape to Extension Items Removed Scythe of Vyse Warlock (Lane)New Skill Build: E W W E E R E W W Q R Q Q Q R (1. Upheaval 2. Shadow Word 3. Fatal Bonds) Added Glimmer Cape to Extension Items Removed Scythe of Vyse To-Do 1. Update Contributor's List 2. Revise Build Categories (tentative thoughts: Middle, Jungle, Safe[lane], Off[lane], [Utility?]) 3. done 4. Look over Captain's Draft for build touch-ups. 5. Revise: - Skill Build: max Q before W + Itemization (Atos/Drums?) | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
This comes to 144 guides total, even being generous with some edge cases like both core and support warlock. I still think this will result in less changes than you might think, because most of the 1-role heroes can go straight across with just a rename. Torte do you still have a bookmark to those posts last time we discussed this? I'm leaving the junglers alone. Although I personally hate jungle lifestealer, I recognise that it's one of the most popular guides so as far as I'm concerned they can all just sit there in a vacuum.
The names are arbitrary, but I'd suggest using offlane as sparingly as possible, reserved either for when a hero is near-exclusively played offlane (eg. darkseer, clock), or has a clear core/support build and a markedly different build in the offlane (eg. morph). Otherwise you'll have people taking "offlane" builds mid with heroes like beastmaster. Some examples of debatable heroes would be ench, tusk and BH; their dps builds often come out of offlane, but in practice those builds are carries and can be run in a lot of lanes. Techies idk. EDIT: I do not understand why the forum's tabstops are different in the editor to the final post, but it just made me real mad | ||
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
I'm sure after the rework there's no way void is anything except offlaner anymore. Also shouldn't Ench core/support be offlane/support? Although I run her mid that's not because it's actually legit in pro games (at least I doubt it is). Lesh support and Kunkka core, are either of these things legit? How does Nyx core work, I don't know if I've seen this before. Is it just offlane Nyx in a solo lane or something? Pudge core shouldn't exist rofl, I guess if it's popular keep it but it really shouldn't. Spacecow isn't core ever, is he? Pretty sure this is just pos4/roaming 99% of time. Support WK is super questionable. Support windranger DEFINITELY questionable and shouldn't exist. | ||
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Verniy
Canada3360 Posts
On February 21 2016 16:38 Birdie wrote: Is BH offlane actually a think? I have only seen him run as a roaming support since forever, although I've only been playing for like a year and a half. offlane bounty was for sure a thing, go watch some vods from TI3 and you'll probably see it it was even run a few times somewhat recently (well, 7 months ago) by VP, and CDEC did it one game at TI5 it's definitely a legit way to play the hero, although you could argue that it's not that good anymore (and arguably wasn't that good ever, there just wasn't as many good offlaners back then) Lesh support and Kunkka core, are either of these things legit? lesh support is for sure still fine, coL used it a few times in Canada Cup core kunkka is arguably just a shitty ember spirit, but it's definitely a completely legitimate way to play the hero Spacecow isn't core ever, is he? Pretty sure this is just pos4/roaming 99% of time. spirit breaker offlane has been a thing luo (offlaner for iG) is known for playing it a lot the other stuff i can't really say on | ||
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
On February 21 2016 18:20 Verniy wrote: offlane bounty was for sure a thing, go watch some vods from TI3 and you'll probably see it it was even run a few times somewhat recently (well, 7 months ago) by VP, and CDEC did it one game at TI5 it's definitely a legit way to play the hero, although you could argue that it's not that good anymore (and arguably wasn't that good ever, there just wasn't as many good offlaners back then) lesh support is for sure still fine, coL used it a few times in Canada Cup core kunkka is arguably just a shitty ember spirit, but it's definitely a completely legitimate way to play the hero spirit breaker offlane has been a thing luo (offlaner for iG) is known for playing it a lot the other stuff i can't really say on The question for these guides isn't really "can it work" though, but rather "is this a standard way to play the hero in the current meta". If very few people ever play SB core offlane, or BH core offlane, or lesh support, or kunkka pos 1, then they shouldn't be standard ways to play the hero. Kunkka pos 1 is a waste of farm. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
The second point is that these guides are most relevant to sub-3k pubs. As a result they will always be "pubbier" than the pro meta and can't afford to look solely at the pro scene. Things like core pudge, kunkka and spiritbreaker are arguably still "standard" in the trench, and if a 2k guy wants to play core pudge he will damn well find a guide that tells him how. It's better for it to be ours if we have the space. As far as I can tell these guides are trying to establish a pub standard, and that is different to simply documenting the pro standard. In some cases there's fads that filter down from the pro scene very quickly, like the radi alc meme did last patch. In other cases there's builds that are totally irrelevant that we nonetheless have to recognise, like mid pudge. With those points in mind: On February 21 2016 16:38 Birdie wrote: Is BH offlane actually a think? I have only seen him run as a roaming support since forever, although I've only been playing for like a year and a half. I'm sure after the rework there's no way void is anything except offlaner anymore. Also shouldn't Ench core/support be offlane/support? Although I run her mid that's not because it's actually legit in pro games (at least I doubt it is). Lesh support and Kunkka core, are either of these things legit? How does Nyx core work, I don't know if I've seen this before. Is it just offlane Nyx in a solo lane or something? Pudge core shouldn't exist rofl, I guess if it's popular keep it but it really shouldn't. Spacecow isn't core ever, is he? Pretty sure this is just pos4/roaming 99% of time. Support WK is super questionable. Support windranger DEFINITELY questionable and shouldn't exist. Nyx, Lesh, kunkka and WR currently have both lane and mid guides. It makes sense to convert those to core and support at the first pass rather than delete the spare. Plus. as long as kunkka has tidebringer there's an odds-on chance icefrog will try to buff him back into a core role. Lesh is totally irrelevant in real games at the moment and he's always seen play as a pub support. Nyx core is just the version that has a reasonable shot at snowballing and getting a solokill tempo rolling, as opposed to settling for life as a walking ward that eventually prays for aghs. I remember a mid nyx in at least one recent pro game, too. Ench's name I don't mind. She's usually offlane but does end up elsewhere. Support WK and core BH, pudge, void and SB would all be new guides, so it's torte's choice whether they're worth adding. imo support WK is pretty legit and was the only role that saw play a couple of patches ago. Core SB, void, pudge and BH are just there as concessions to the pub meta. I agree they're questionable. I do think we would need a very good reason to ignore pudge. | ||
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Velzi
Finland659 Posts
Phoenix Support? Im pretty sure i have seen phoenix only in the offlane solo/dual lane and even in the dual lane he was the one who farmed the lane. Lvls are soo important for the hero that making phoenix a support is never going to net u a single useful egg in the game.I actually played mid phoenix a while ago and it was super good, i would rather see mid phoenix build than support phoenix. Undying support is kinda fine but u'll see a lot more offlane undying in pubs than pos4-5 undy. Both build pretty much the same unless u get shitload of lvls in the offlane u should max tombstone over other skills (where as support undy u might stop lvling totem because it just doesnt survive anymore vs higher lvl opponents). Windranger support isnt really a thing anymore either thanks to new aghs and stuff, its doable but i wouldnt encourage pubs to do it unless they really have to. If u really want to have support WR, guide should be entirely different than right now for the Core WR (Arcanes,Mek,Force Staff kinda stuff i think). Core Veno doesnt exist? I dont know about that. Having Midgame timing with Aghs Octarine Venomancer u are 100% guaranteed to win teamfight, thats how strong it is. Obviously Safelane Veno is not the way to play Veno but Mid Veno can really crush some lanes other heroes couldnt. E: I see we dont have Mid Veno guide, maybe thats not a thing then. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Offlane cow is kind of a thing (it's bad 1v3, but can 1v2 just fine and 2vX with certain heroes like Dark Seer), mid/safelane cow are never a thing. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
On February 21 2016 20:57 Velzi wrote: Some thoughts: Phoenix Support? Im pretty sure i have seen phoenix only in the offlane solo/dual lane and even in the dual lane he was the one who farmed the lane. Lvls are soo important for the hero that making phoenix a support is never going to net u a single useful egg in the game.I actually played mid phoenix a while ago and it was super good, i would rather see mid phoenix build than support phoenix. Undying support is kinda fine but u'll see a lot more offlane undying in pubs than pos4-5 undy. Both build pretty much the same unless u get shitload of lvls in the offlane u should max tombstone over other skills (where as support undy u might stop lvling totem because it just doesnt survive anymore vs higher lvl opponents). Windranger support isnt really a thing anymore either thanks to new aghs and stuff, its doable but i wouldnt encourage pubs to do it unless they really have to. If u really want to have support WR, guide should be entirely different than right now for the Core WR (Arcanes,Mek,Force Staff kinda stuff i think). Core Veno doesnt exist? I dont know about that. Having Midgame timing with Aghs Octarine Venomancer u are 100% guaranteed to win teamfight, thats how strong it is. Obviously Safelane Veno is not the way to play Veno but Mid Veno can really crush some lanes other heroes couldnt. E: I see we dont have Mid Veno guide, maybe thats not a thing then. Support vs offlane undy is more or less arbitrary. As you said, undy skills pretty much the same regardless of role, and he's usually in some kind of oppressive offlane duo whether he's farming or not. The guide could easily be labelled offlane instead. I don't think he's worth two guides as that would be a new one for the sake of a very small difference. Now that I think about it, Slardar probably doesn't need a core guide either. Phoenix, on the other hand, currently has two guides, so those could easily be converted to core and support. I do think support phoenix is okay. What limited pro-scene play the hero saw a couple patches ago tended to be in a support role. I forgot elder titan in the above list, but he's another hero who has two guides and multiple roles and isn't very relevant at the moment. It's probably worth keeping both because who knows what icefrog will do. Not sure about core veno. I don't think I've ever seen it except in those awkward games where the team picks too many supports, or as a mid counterpick to eg. TA. It certainly works but I'm not sure veno is enough of a standout versus things like rhasta, sky, shaker, SK, jak etc that could also have core guides if there was no cap. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
Unchanged, except for renaming Abaddon -> Support Ancient Apparition (Lane) -> Support  Anti-Mage -> Core Axe (Jungle) Axe (Lane) -> Offlane Bane -> Support Batrider -> Offlane Bloodseeker (Jungle) Bristleback -> Core Broodmother -> OfflaneCentaur Warrunner -> Offlane Chaos Knight -> Core  Chen -> Jungle Clinkz _> Core Clockwerk -> OfflaneCrystal Maiden -> Support  Dark Seer -> Offlane Dazzle -> SupportDeath Prophet -> Core  Disruptor -> Support Doom (Jungle) Doom (Lane) -> CoreDragon Knight (Middle) -> Core Drow Ranger -> Core  Earthshaker -> SupportEarth Spirit (Lane) -> Support Elder Titan (Lane) -> Support Enchantress -> Jungle Enigma -> JungleFaceless Void -> Offlane  Huskar -> Core Invoker -> Core QWIO -> Support  Jakiro -> Support Juggernaut -> CoreKeeper of the Light -> Support  Lich -> Support Lifestealer (Lane) -> Core Lifestealer (Jungle) Lion -> SupportLone Druid (Lane) -> Core  Luna -> CoreLycan (Lane) -> Core Lycan (Jungle) Magnus -> Core Medusa -> Core Meepo -> Core Mirana -> Core Morphling -> CoreNaga Siren (Middle) -> Core Nature's Prophet -> Core Necrophos -> Core Night Stalker -> Offlane Nyx Assassin (Lane) -> Support Ogre Magi -> Support  Omniknight -> SupportOracle (Lane) -> Support Outworld Devourer -> Core  Phantom Assassin -> Core Phantom Lancer -> CorePhoenix (Lane) -> Support  Puck -> Core Pudge -> Roam Pugna -> CoreQueen of Pain -> Core  Razor -> Core Riki -> Core Rubick -> SupportSand King -> Support  Shadow Demon -> Support Shadow Fiend -> Core Shadow Shaman (Lane) -> Support Skywrath Mage (Lane) -> Support  Slardar -> Offlane Slark (Lane) -> Core  Sniper (Lane) -> Core Spectre -> CoreStorm Spirit -> Core  Sven -> CoreTechies -> Roam Templar Assassin -> Core Terrorblade -> Core  Tidehunter -> Offlane Timbersaw -> Offlane Tinker -> CoreTreant Protector -> Support Troll Warlord (Lane) -> Core  Tusk -> Support Undying -> Offlane Ursa (Jungle) Ursa (Lane) -> CoreVengeful Spirit -> Support Venomancer -> Support Viper -> Core Visage -> Support Warlock (Lane) -> Support Weaver (Lane) -> CoreWinter Wyvern -> Support  Witch Doctor -> SupportWraith King -> Core  Zeus -> CoreMinor changes, usually merging a mid/safelane guide into a core guide Alchemist (Middle) -> CoreArc Warden (Middle) -> Core  Beastmaster (Lane) -> Core Bloodseeker (Lane) -> Core Brewmaster (Middle) -> CoreElder Titan (Middle) -> Core Ember Spirit (Lane) -> Core  Gyrocopter (Lane) -> Core Kunkka (Middle) -> CoreLegion Commander (Lane) -> Core  Leshrac (Middle) -> Core Lina (Middle) -> CoreNyx Assassin (Middle) -> Core Phoenix (Middle) -> Core  Silencer (Middle) -> CoreSpirit Breaker -> Roam  Tiny (Middle) -> Core Warlock (Middle) -> CoreWindranger (Lane) -> Core Major changes, generally turning a spare mid/safe guide into a support Arc Warden (Lane) -> Support Bounty Hunter -> Roam Kunkka (Lane) -> Support Leshrac (Lane) -> Support Lina (Lane) -> SupportLegion Commander (Middle) -> Jungle Naga Siren (Lane) -> Support Silencer (Lane) -> SupportWindranger (Middle) -> Support Delete: redundant guides from mid/safe merge with no other use (check pairs and delete the one with least subscribers) Bloodseeker (Middle) Brewmaster (Lane) Dragon Knight (Lane) Ember Spirit (Middle) Slark (Middle) Sniper (Middle) Tiny (Lane) Troll Warlord (Middle) Weaver (Middle)Probably delete: guides that could either be repurposed or ditched, plus some egregiously outdated builds Alchemist (Lane) -> Support?Ancient Apparition (Middle) Beastmaster (Middle) -> Support?Earth Spirit (Middle) -> Core? Gyrocopter (Middle) -> Support? Lone Druid (Jungle) Oracle (Middle) Shadow Shaman (Middle)Skywrath Mage (Middle) New guides Enchantress Offlane Invoker Core QE Mirana Support/RoamVenge Core Zeus SupportPossible guides Bounty Hunter Offlane Void Core Morph Offlane Pudge Core Pugna Support Veno CoreSpirit Breaker Offlane Tusk CoreWraith King Support It might be worth labelling a few very specific heroes as "roam", like techies, pudge, spiritbreaker and bounty. It would get us around having to create their parallel guides. My instinct is that a lot of 2k players would avoid subscribing to a pudge guide that explicitly labels them a support, but would be comfortable with roam. | ||
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
That's how a lot of the guides for "unconventional" ways of playing heroes came about. And subscriber retention is a fair reason not to delete them in most cases. The subscriber retention issue is why the guides have to be somewhat agnostic to what's in the meta or good on the current patch. Deleting and remaking guides just to fit the meta is just a bad idea. And really, adhering to the "meta" is really kind of pointless with these guides because anyone who follows the game closely enough for that to matter won't need these guides--they're the kind of players watching streams and seeing what people are building there anyway. These guides aren't useful for the level of play where the "meta" matters anyway. In a way, we're hedging a bit on what we think Icefrog will make good, but that's why guides like support Lesh and core Kunkka have to stay. Just because those aren't how they're played now or when they were more recently good doesn't mean we delete the guides. Because for most of DotA's history, Lesh was often played as a support and Kunkka was often played as a core, it's reasonable to expect that if Icefrog buffs these heroes, he will try to make them reasonable in those positions. Same thing with core Nyx or Pudge--these being mid heroes was such a mainstay of Dota for *so long* that its hard to believe that they will never return there. Just because Dota in it's current state doesn't support heroes like this mid doesn't mean that we can say it will never happen again. Stuff like support WK is more questionable because that was mostly an anomaly of a single patch, not a perennial staple of DotA. I think it's a little harder to argue that support WK will "come back". | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 22 2016 06:36 Belisarius wrote: Phoenix, on the other hand, currently has two guides, so those could easily be converted to core and support. I do think support phoenix is okay. What limited pro-scene play the hero saw a couple patches ago tended to be in a support role. Phoenix support plays almost exactly like offlane Phoenix except you buy wards and are poorer as a result. At best you swap going for 4 dive for something like 2 dive & beam earlier, but that's pretty situational. I don't dislike the idea of both guides, especially since 2 already exist, but they also don't really differ much so it's a bit of a waste. If you're having a good game you still go for midas for the levels, if you're getting smashed around (or have typical support poorness you still consider items like mek. I think heroes like Phoenix and Enchantress are one of the toughest things to handle. The guides are almost identical in both roles, but then there's a question of whether or not you are on the hook for wards/courier. It's such a waste to have a whole new guide just to tell people to buy wards, but it does have an actual tangible difference (especially in starting items). Overall I like the idea of using Core as liberally as possible over specifically offlane/safelane. Someone like void is only played offlane right now typically, but in a pub environment & in the future it'd be quite easy for that role to expand. There are plenty of line ups that should still win with a void offlane (like if you have a greedy farming mid and offlane). The thing you need to worry about is people taking 'core' guides mid when they shouldn't. Ultimately I think we lack the proper data though. How many people actually are fitting their guide choices to the lanes they pick? I'd imagine most people have an idea of what they want to play (say mid OD) then grab the guide for it. | ||
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Velzi
Finland659 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 23 2016 00:32 Velzi wrote: U shouldnt max Dive over Beam, Beam is so good, even maxing Beam over Spirits is fine. either 1-4-1 or 1-1-4, never 4-4-1 imo. Beam is really tricky to use for ganking which Phoenix is pretty good at from level 6-10; Beam is better at teamfighting though so it all comes down to the pace of the game and the pace of your Pheonix levels. It's possibly support Phoenix may settle on the 1 dive > beam > spirits build that pro players have started playing around with more (I forgot they started doing that a bit), but that always struck me as something you can only get away with in highly coordinated games where people will properly setup slows/stuns for your beam. | ||
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