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On February 19 2016 01:48 BluemoonSC wrote:
you only need one point in greed.
max spray for zoning and control over the lane as well as wave clear to get the bounty runes.
For Mid?
Doesn't that delay radiance heavily and the amount you get from bounty, thus pushing all your other items back further and making you scale at a slower pace?
I think it depends on the itemization intended, no?
Max Spray -> Greed -> Unstable
First 6 levels is 1 of each with max spray, yes.
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SoCal8933 Posts
yes for mid
4-1-1-1 into 4-1-4-2 is probably fine since concoction isnt as good as it used to be and the bounty runes are now scaled less.
we had the discussion on bottle in the alch thread a while back. the sooner your bottle, the more aggressive you can be with your acid spray and positioning in lane to get last hits and really dominate your lane. it got nerfed but its still solid and you want it asap as a melee solo laner with like no armor to speak of.
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United States47024 Posts
Maxing Spray doesn't delay Radiance.
Read what Greed does. The gold bonus scales on how fast you're killing creeps. If you aren't killing creeps fast enough to hit the gold bonus cap, Greed ranks aren't actually that good. Greed only becomes really good when you kill creeps fast enough to get the bonus stacked and to do that you need to level your one skill that actually kills creeps fast. Most of the efficient farming patterns that really result in a good Radiance timing require abusing spray to mix lane and jungle farming efficiently.
There's an argument for having rank 2 or 3 Greed before you take rank 4 Spray (because with rank 1 Greed, the gold bonus caps out after exactly 4 creeps which is the size of a creep wave, so it's possible you may "waste" stacks when the lane is pushing slightly or when you kill jungle camps on the side), but for the purposes of a newbie guide, maxing Spray by 7 is fine.
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SoCal8933 Posts
i mean thats just the "on paper" stuff.
like i said before, one of the biggest benefits maxing your spray gives is zoning and lane control as well as wave clear to reach bounty runes
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United States47024 Posts
For mid yes. It's more relevant for safe lane because you aren't clamoring to spray every wave and get Bounty runes, but you should still usually be maxing Spray first because for the most part you farm more effectively overall by having Spray at 7 because it lets you take jungle camps on the side while still farming the lane (which is a big deal for Alch's farm because it lets you get past 4 creeps every 30 seconds on the Greed bonus).
Put simply, a 4-1-2 Alch that can use rank 4 Spray to kill an additional jungle camp on the side every minute is making more gold off Greed than a 2-1-4 Alch that can only kill creep waves.
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i misunderstood as 1 point in greed* meant max it last
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for Lane, I moved the skill build from Acid Spray -> Greevil's Greed -> Unstable to Acid Spray -> Unstable -> Greevil's Greed
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I'm still sad to see Enchantress not getting any priority on Untouchable, but I think it's at least still OK if that's what you like.
But I think there's some other things in the guide to note:
Phase Boots seems to be really popular on Enchantress now among top players on DotA Buff it seems to be like a 50/50 split at worst and something favoring phase a lot more otherwise.
Casual Cloak? It's a really nice pick up on Enchantress after Dragon Lance. Surviving spell burst even with almost no hp is a big difference on Enchantress. It's not the difference between limping back to base and dieing, but the difference of healing up with sprites and being able to turn around and continue teamfighting.
Text for Drums of Endurance reads "A definite pickup during the first few levels..." which isn't consistent with the item being a situational item.
I don't think Shiva's is right for enchantress anymore, if it ever was to begin with. If you are auto attacking with Dragon Lance + Aghs then you can barely even hit the target you are attacking with shiva's never mind the rest of the enemy team. I think any other support item (like Hex which is listed) will get you more return on investment. If someone is getting up in your face through your massive attack range then it's highly unlikely the slow will be of any help getting you space (glimmer, force, and eul's would all be better for that situation probably).
Possibly add Moon Shard to extension? Attack speed is obviously great for Enchantress, but she also makes good use of the night vision by being able to make full use of her attack range at night when chasing people (which in turn also means +17.5 pure damage per attack over hitting from 800 range). Basically at worst it's a potential sub in item if someone else on your team is already going AC.
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Is Assault Cuirass even a good idea on Aghs+Dragon Lance Enchantress? I find that I'm often positioned with the closest enemy hero on the very edge of AC aura range, which means most of the fight happens outside my aura influence.
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On February 19 2016 05:05 Buckyman wrote:
Is Assault Cuirass even a good idea on Aghs+Dragon Lance Enchantress? I find that I'm often positioned with the closest enemy hero on the very edge of AC aura range, which means most of the fight happens outside my aura influence.
If no one else on your team is going to get it it still gets your team +20 attack speed and +5 armor and your target (which if you are focus firing with your team is everyone's target) will have -5 armor. Then on top of that you get the -5 armor on towers for objectives (and the +5 on creeps for pushing).
The AoE is less important than say Shiva's because often you aren't putting out AoE physical damage (and a lot of the heroes that do will want AC themselves) and it's an aura so you will apply it consistently over the fight rather than just flat out missing a lot of targets with shiva's active. So long as the target your cores/carries are attacking are within your AoE range that's fine. I think Moon Shard vs AC (vs another major item) depends a lot on the game and your team's needs, but having AC on enchantress is usually better than not having one at all and it's an item she carries decently well.
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United States47024 Posts
AC is bought because in the situations you'd get it, the Armor+AS stat combination is perfect.
Most of the aura benefit is to allies, not enemies, so the fact that the aura misses enemies is not a dealbreaker in the games you want the Armor+AS combination.
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On February 19 2016 04:35 Logo wrote:
I'm still sad to see Enchantress not getting any priority on Untouchable, but I think it's at least still OK if that's what you like.
But I think there's some other things in the guide to note:
Phase Boots seems to be really popular on Enchantress now among top players on DotA Buff it seems to be like a 50/50 split at worst and something favoring phase a lot more otherwise.
Casual Cloak? It's a really nice pick up on Enchantress after Dragon Lance. Surviving spell burst even with almost no hp is a big difference on Enchantress. It's not the difference between limping back to base and dieing, but the difference of healing up with sprites and being able to turn around and continue teamfighting.
Text for Drums of Endurance reads "A definite pickup during the first few levels..." which isn't consistent with the item being a situational item.
I don't think Shiva's is right for enchantress anymore, if it ever was to begin with. If you are auto attacking with Dragon Lance + Aghs then you can barely even hit the target you are attacking with shiva's never mind the rest of the enemy team. I think any other support item (like Hex which is listed) will get you more return on investment. If someone is getting up in your face through your massive attack range then it's highly unlikely the slow will be of any help getting you space (glimmer, force, and eul's would all be better for that situation probably).
Possibly add Moon Shard to extension? Attack speed is obviously great for Enchantress, but she also makes good use of the night vision by being able to make full use of her attack range at night when chasing people (which in turn also means +17.5 pure damage per attack over hitting from 800 range). Basically at worst it's a potential sub in item if someone else on your team is already going AC.
 Untouchable would be good if Enchantress was in the offlane (this is Jungle). But I also think that maxing E is a teamplay move and much safer/valuable.
Hm, I'm also seeing it in the Jungle in the latest Captain's Draft. Might be time to try it out myself.
Glimmer Cape is in there as situational.
I'll fix Drums now.
I can remove Shiva's and Hand of Midas.
I will add Moon Shard to Extension
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Legion Commander (Lane)
Added Healing Salve to Starting Items
Added Iron Talon to Early Game
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Power Treads to Early Game
Moved Bottle to Situational Items
Moved Sange and Yasha to Extension Items
Removed Iron Branch x2
Removed Abyssal Blade
Removed Quelling Blade
Legion Commander (Middle)
Removed Iron Branch x3
Added Iron Talon to Early Game
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Power Treads to Early Game
Moved Bottle to Situational Items
Moved Sange and Yasha to Extension Items
Removed Iron Branch x2
Removed Abyssal Blade
Removed Quelling Blade
Drow Ranger
Added Shadow Blade to Situational Items
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
Removed Silver Edge
Removed Mask of Madness
Enchantress
New Skill Build: W E Q Q Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Untouchable 2. Nature's Attendants 3. Enchant)
Added Moon Shard to Extension Items
Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Removed Hand of Midas
Removed Shiva's Guard
 Magnus
New Skill Build: Q E Q E Q R Q W W W R W E E R (1. Shockwave 2. Empower 3. Skewer)
Added Linken's Sphere to Situational Items
Moved Guardian Greaves to Extension Items
Crystal Maiden
Added Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Removed Scythe of Vyse
 Alchemist (Middle)
New Skill Build: E Q Q E Q R W Q E E R W W W R (1. Acid Spray 2. Greevil's Greed 3. Unstable Concoction)
Added Mjolnnir to Extension Items
Moved Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items
Moved Monkey King Bar to Luxury Items
Removed Boots of Travel - Level 2
Alchemist (Lane)
New Skill Build: E Q W Q W R Q Q W W R E E E R (1. Acid Spray 2. Unstable Concoction 3. Greevil's Greed)
Added Hand of Midas to Situational Items
Added Silver Edge to Situational Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Core Items
Moved Solar Crest to Extension Items
Moved Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items
Moved Monkey King Bar to Luxury Items
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Boots of Travel - Level 2
 Juggernaut
New Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q W W W R E E E (1. Blade Fury 2. Healing Ward 3. Blade Dance)
Keeper of the Light
New Skill Build: W Q E Q Q E Q R W E E W W R R (1. Illuminate 2. Chakra Magic 3. Mana Leak)
 Venomancer
Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items
Moved Force Staff to Extension Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Extension Items
Removed Arcane Boots
Bounty Hunter
Removed Pipe of Insight
Removed Solar Crest
Ember Spirit (Lane)
Ember Spirit (Middle)
Moved Eye of Skadi to Extension Items
Moved Manta Style to Luxury Items
Oracle (Lane)
Oracle (Middle)
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Flying Courier to "Utility Items"
Added Observer Ward to "Utility Items"
Added Sentry Ward to "Utility Items"
Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items"
Added Smoke of Deceit to "Utility Items"
Moved Aether Lens to Core Items
Moved Guardian Greaves to Extension Items
Removed Mekansm
To-Do
1. Update Contributor's List
2. Revise Build Categories (tentative thoughts: Middle, Jungle, Safe[lane], Off[lane], [Utility?])
3. done
4. Look over Captain's Draft for build touch-ups.
5. Revise: - Skill Build. - Skill Build: max Q before W + Itemization (Atos/Drums?)
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I dont know if u want to max out Skewer before taking any points to empower, skewer doesnt scale particularly well, increased range or increased slow are not really that big of deal compared to damage increase to ur carry from empower.
I would get value point in empower either lvl2,lvl4 or lvl8 latest if u really think its not worth it, sometimes u want to get lvl1 empower for the easy last hits (when lane is easy to begin with, not OD like cancer).
f.e. Arise has 2-1-1 @lvl4 pretty much every game (either lvl1,lvl2 or lvl4 first point to empower) and most of time he has maxed empower @lvl12 latest (4-4-2-2).
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Manta Style on Ember isn't really a Luxury item, it's situational. You don't buy it because you're doing really well, you buy it because there's a non-dodgeable silence you really need to not die to.
Why is there an LC Middle build rofl
Is aghs actually core 3rd item on Enchantress? Whenever I get it I get it like 5th or 6th, there are some other pretty good items to build on her first like drums, bkb, maybe rod of aui (although I haven't tried that one yet).
For Drow I feel like even if you're going the Manta route you still want Agha no matter what, e.g. boots, hotd, manta, bkb, agha, MKB/Mael. I could be wrong but it definitely feels like a core item to me.
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
aghs gives u everything u want on enchantress. hp to survive nukes, agi for atk speed, int to cast spears
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On February 19 2016 08:21 ahswtini wrote:
aghs gives u everything u want on enchantress. hp to survive nukes, agi for atk speed, int to cast spears
Drums is less than half the price and gives you an awesome aura too, worse HP/mana due to 1/1/1 less stats and no point booster stats. Agha is good for sure, the attack range increase particularly, I only question getting it as early as it is. Kinda awkward buildup and doesn't help your team.
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SoCal8933 Posts
for most heroes, having drums as "situational" is adequate.
you get them when you need a small item, but if you have the space and farm, agha is great.
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On February 19 2016 07:48 Torte de Lini wrote:
To-Do
2. Revise Build Categories (tentative thoughts: Middle, Jungle, Safe[lane], Off[lane], [Utility?])
Okay wait how did this change back to a set of categories that does not contain support?
The only categories that make sense to me are Core, Support, and possibly Offlane.
The main downside would be an inability to differentiate heroes who would skill differently in mid versus safelane. I think that's unfortunate but acceptable.
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EPT
