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2xBF+Daed also reliably 1-shots waves, while I'm pretty sure BF+2xDaed needs fairly specific rolls to do so.
If you're putting an extra daed you should also put at extra BF. I think generally you'd buy one about as often as the other, and that's like 20% of games each anyway, nowadays.
On February 18 2016 07:54 TheYango wrote:
The thing is, if you want more AoE damage, Battlefury is naturally better, and if you want more single-target damage, than Blink (+ defensive item if necessary) is better than any single damage item because being able to use Blink to get 1-2 autoattacks into your Sleight+Chains rotation adds more single-target damage than any individual damage item does, while also costing less.
Blink also lets you control which hero that damage goes on, as opposed to just praying for a crit to blow up the support rather than the infinite armour frontliner who doesn't care anyway.
But I'm still not sure we want guide players trying to do blink ember.
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On February 18 2016 08:32 Nevuk wrote:
On Veno, arcanes actually aren't the best boots if you're spamming gale. Spamming gale implies roaming, which tranquils + clarities do a better job of.
Arcanes are for pushing to let you constantly spam wards and have mana for mek, as well as the benefit for team. The biggest issue with not going arcanes is that you have to manage your mana carefully to have mana to ult + gale.
I still really don't like blink on veno. His spells are just such long range that I've never found it necessary, or at the least the benefits of force or glimmer fill the same role for him.
So for Veno, we moved away from Venom - Meka and it is more of a roaming/push Ward build going Blink into Aghs
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=129096483
It's under the assumption that you'll starve before getting Blink (worst case scenario).
What of Tranquil + Aquila then Blink -> Aghs?
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On February 18 2016 07:54 TheYango wrote:
The thing is, if you want more AoE damage, Battlefury is naturally better, and if you want more single-target damage, than Blink (+ defensive item if necessary) is better than any single damage item because being able to use Blink to get 1-2 autoattacks into your Sleight+Chains rotation adds more single-target damage than any individual damage item does, while also costing less.
Second Daed is for the kinds of games where either you need more single-target damage in addition to Blink OR the enemy has too many instant disables for you to practically use Blink safely. Both are exceptional.
Skadi and Deso are both situational in that they replace items in the default progression for specific kinds of games. Deso's actually bad lategame so it makes no sense for it to be Extension. You get it early in super stompy games.
The scenario in my head is an Ember that stays in the back; spams SoF and CC when available.
On February 18 2016 08:05 Birdie wrote:
I'd say it's fine to have the Daedalus there as an option. I think for my personal build I have BoTs, BF and Daedx1 core, and then rapier blink skadi daed deso all situational.
These items are too large for Situational Items' policy. Only Desolator or Blink would flex between Extension or Situational depending on how we want to prioritize (an option to buy or something to consider before going Extension Items).
Luxury Items is for Skadi, Rapier.
On February 18 2016 08:38 Belisarius wrote:2xBF+Daed also reliably 1-shots waves, while I'm pretty sure BF+2xDaed needs fairly specific rolls to do so. If you're putting an extra daed you should also put at extra BF. I think generally you'd buy one about as often as the other, and that's like 20% of games each anyway, nowadays. Show nested quote +On February 18 2016 07:54 TheYango wrote:
The thing is, if you want more AoE damage, Battlefury is naturally better, and if you want more single-target damage, than Blink (+ defensive item if necessary) is better than any single damage item because being able to use Blink to get 1-2 autoattacks into your Sleight+Chains rotation adds more single-target damage than any individual damage item does, while also costing less. Blink also lets you control which hero that damage goes on, as opposed to just praying for a crit to blow up the support rather than the infinite armour frontliner who doesn't care anyway. But I'm still not sure we want guide players trying to do blink ember.
If we put both; we'll confuse the user with how the descriptions are written. I see Daedalus being bought a second time, albeit situationally, I don't see a second Battle Fury ever.
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On February 18 2016 08:44 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2016 08:32 Nevuk wrote:
On Veno, arcanes actually aren't the best boots if you're spamming gale. Spamming gale implies roaming, which tranquils + clarities do a better job of.
Arcanes are for pushing to let you constantly spam wards and have mana for mek, as well as the benefit for team. The biggest issue with not going arcanes is that you have to manage your mana carefully to have mana to ult + gale.
I still really don't like blink on veno. His spells are just such long range that I've never found it necessary, or at the least the benefits of force or glimmer fill the same role for him. So for Veno, we moved away from Venom - Meka and it is more of a roaming/push Ward build going Blink into Aghs http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=129096483It's under the assumption that you'll starve before getting Blink (worst case scenario). What of Tranquil + Aquila then Blink -> Aghs?
I need to update my veno guide sometime, as the mek + arcanes build is more for core veno now I think.
Checking through some of the higher dotabuff people, I think this guy lines up with what you're going for usually. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/68289096/matches?date=&hero=venomancer&skill_bracket=&lobby_type=&game_mode=®ion=&faction=&duration=&timezone=America/New_York
Though I've yet to watch the replays, it seems to be mostly tranquils, aquila, necro, blink (with the occasional midas). Many of the other players seem to be going greaves or tranquils -> aghs.
Oh, and tranquil and aquila into blink or aghs should be fine, I believe. I personally still wouldn't get blink, but that seems like a preference more than anything else.
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do a build for support Lina so I can learn the support Lina master ways 
(also, Torte, sorry for playing a terrible support Lina, the compendium achievement made me do it!)
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On February 18 2016 12:47 NibbloniaN wrote:do a build for support Lina so I can learn the support Lina master ways (also, Torte, sorry for playing a terrible support Lina, the compendium achievement made me do it!)
It's fine, very frustrating group. I'm sorry for being overly anxious to succeed/super frustrated. That Ursa made my blood boil! Playing solo-support is difficult and it puts even more pressure on positioning, warding, etc.
Join the TeamLiquid channel, I'll queue up with you and we can synergize better laning heroes (I was doing Windranger for a quest and that Puck simply outplayed me).
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Legion Commander (Lane)
Added Healing Salve to Starting Items
Added Iron Talon to Early Game
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Power Treads to Early Game
Moved Bottle to Situational Items
Moved Sange and Yasha to Extension Items
Removed Iron Branch x2
Removed Abyssal Blade
Removed Quelling Blade
Legion Commander (Middle)
Removed Iron Branch x3
Added Iron Talon to Early Game
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Power Treads to Early Game
Moved Bottle to Situational Items
Moved Sange and Yasha to Extension Items
Removed Iron Branch x2
Removed Abyssal Blade
Removed Quelling Blade
Drow Ranger
Added Shadow Blade to Situational Items
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
Removed Silver Edge
Removed Mask of Madness
 Enchantress
Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
 Magnus
Added Linken's Sphere to Situational Items
Moved Guardian Greaves to Extension Items
Crystal Maiden
Added Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Removed Scythe of Vyse
 Alchemist (Middle)
New Skill Build: E Q Q E E R W E Q Q R W W W R (1. Greevil's Greed 2. Acid Spray 3. Unstable Concoction)
Added Mjolnnir to Extension Items
Moved Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items
Moved Monkey King Bar to Luxury Items
Removed Boots of Travel - Level 2
Alchemist (Lane)
New Skill Build: E Q W E E R E W W W R Q Q Q R (1. Greevil's Greed 2. Unstable Concoction 3. Acid Spray)
Added Shadow Blade to Core Items
Added Hand of Midas to Situational Items
Added Silver Edge to Situational Items
Moved Solar Crest to Extension Items
Moved Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items
Moved Monkey King Bar to Luxury Items
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Boots of Travel - Level 2
 Juggernaut
New Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q W W W R E E E (1. Blade Fury 2. Healing Ward 3. Blade Dance)
Keeper of the Light
New Skill Build: W Q E Q Q E Q R W E E W W R R (1. Illuminate 2. Chakra Magic 3. Mana Leak)
 Venomancer
Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items
Moved Force Staff to Extension Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Extension Items
Removed Arcane Boots
Bounty Hunter
Removed Pipe of Insight
Removed Solar Crest
To-Do
1. Update Contributor's List
2. Revise Build Categories (tentative thoughts: Middle, Jungle, Safe[lane], Off[lane], [Utility?])
3. done
4. Look over Captain's Draft for build touch-ups.
5. Revise: - Item Build (Arcane into Aether Lens into Force -> Roam build [Lane]), - Skill Build, - Decide to keep Daedalus
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United States47024 Posts
Why exactly are we changing to max Greed first on Alch?
Cuz I'm pretty sure that's just bad. Especially mid. You're just asking to get fucked if you max Greed first on mid Alch.
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On February 18 2016 16:21 TheYango wrote:
Why exactly are we changing to max Greed first on Alch?
Cuz I'm pretty sure that's just bad. Especially mid. You're just asking to get fucked if you max Greed first on mid Alch.
It was always max greed (since changes 6.86), we are just adding a point in W earlier.
It's also the current way played at mid.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 18 2016 17:36 Torte de Lini wrote:
It's also the current way played at mid.
Based on what? 6.86 changes have no impact on how you skill the hero and the hero is still Spray max basically all the time.
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On February 18 2016 18:13 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2016 17:36 Torte de Lini wrote:
It's also the current way played at mid.
Based on what? 6.86 changes have no impact on how you skill the hero and the hero is still Spray max basically all the time.
6.86 wasn't the reason for the change, I just used the 6.86 full hero builds revision to apply changes to heroes that previously had an outdated build.
Alchemist did not have the Radiance/Octarine Core build before 6.86.
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United States47024 Posts
That still doesn't answer the question of what the impetus for maxing Greed over Spray was when that's usually bad.
A similar question is how QB got onto the starting items for that hero.
EDIT: Like, neither skill build actually makes any sense. Going 2-1-4 mid is just asking to get totally shit on by any hero that isn't awful in lane, and going 1-4-4 safe lane doesn't have any sensible justification because what is Greed doing for you when you don't even kill creeps fast enough to stack up the gold bonus?
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On February 18 2016 18:20 TheYango wrote:
That still doesn't answer the question of what the impetus for maxing Greed over Spray was when that's usually bad.
A similar question is how QB got onto the starting items for that hero.
There's no recent games for me to verify which is more ideal: Greed or Acid Spray (some even max W before Spray or Greed as mid). I've had personal success numerous times with both so it hasn't changed since.
Quelling Blade is almost always one of the first items on Alchemist (Middle or Lane) to ensure last-hits and because you are going for large items, so its value is immense and long-term.
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United States47024 Posts
Except when you're mid Bottle is just massively more important to you than any other item. Starting with a QB mid is delaying your Bottle by 225 gold and it's not going to help you more than it hurts.
You get the QB at some point early game, but not by taking a 225 gold detour from your Bottle.
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On February 17 2016 09:09 Belisarius wrote:
The lane build at the moment is basically that, aside from torte's inexplicable hard-on for shadowblade over blink. The solar is later too, which I'm not sure makes sense.
imo it's fine to go combat items after radiance. Fighting alchemist is usually some combination of solar/blink/SnY/AC/BKB/abyssal. Alc gets radiance so ludicrously quickly that going radi into that stuff is perfectly valid, and a much better choice if you'd get outcarried trying to rat.
BoTs vs treads is probably situational. Sometimes you need the straight-up stats (Miracle went treads in that game), other times being able to TP into any midgame scrap with blink concoction is a big deal.
I can swap in Blink instead. I like Shadow Blade for the extra attack speed and more situational value.
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On February 18 2016 18:27 TheYango wrote:
Except when you're mid Bottle is just massively more important to you than any other item. Starting with a QB mid is delaying your Bottle by 225 gold and it's not going to help you more than it hurts.
You get the QB at some point early game, but not by taking a 225 gold detour from your Bottle.
You either QB at the start or after bottle (and/or boots). I think you still get Bottle under the 2-minute mark even with going Quelling Blade at 0:00, though now you can reliably last hit. Assuming you get 4 last hits in a minimum of two waves; you will have 660 gold for Bottle by the 1:15 mark at the latest.
625 starting gold
starting items cost: 560
Remainder gold: 65 + (0:00 - Bounty Rune): 300
~400 by the time the creeps hit river.
You get level 2 (and Acid Spray) about right after the first wave more or less. Should have enough mana for two Acid Sprays and get the necessary last hits.
so I think Bottle still comes at good a time and at least you'll have Quelling Blade to not have to deal with missed timings. These are off-hand calculations, so feel free to correct me.
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United States47024 Posts
QB doesn't make a lot of impact on whether you get lasthits mid as Alch vs. ranged. If they can't fight you for lasthits, they'll just hit attack you and pressure you off the lane, then turn back to deny creeps, knowing your Bottle-Crowing starts 225 gold later so they can actually get meaningful harass damage when they wouldn't otherwise. While the idea of delaying Bottle to have QB sounds appealing because "I can get the lasthits easily when I have a QB", it also means you don't have a bottle which means taking damage matters until you actually do get that bottle so you have to give up lasthits that would cause you to take too much damage to get them.
The time you need QB is when you get 6 and start using spray to kill jungle camps on the side.
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i was under the impression max greed first is super situational at best. like basically only done if you're getting completely uncontested freefarm, which shouldn't really happen if you're mid unless you're laning against a hero that has no business being mid in the first place.
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On February 18 2016 18:53 TheYango wrote:
QB doesn't make a lot of impact on whether you get lasthits mid as Alch vs. ranged. If they can't fight you for lasthits, they'll just hit attack you and pressure you off the lane, then turn back to deny creeps, knowing your Bottle-Crowing starts 225 gold later so they can actually get meaningful harass damage when they wouldn't otherwise. While the idea of delaying Bottle to have QB sounds appealing because "I can get the lasthits easily when I have a QB", it also means you don't have a bottle which means taking damage matters until you actually do get that bottle so you have to give up lasthits that would cause you to take too much damage to get them.
The time you need QB is when you get 6 and start using spray to kill jungle camps on the side.
We will change Acid Spray to be maxed first.
Meaningful harass for a full-minute when you have regen (whether tango or healing salve) + stout shield sounds negligible. On top of that, you don't have Acid Spray until after the first wave; making an earlier bottle situational.
I'd have to try this out personally, but I recall hating trying to last hit at Alchemist and I think the delayed Bottle, especially when you only have Greevil's Greed at the very start, makes sense.
You have regen and stout shield to mitigate level 1 harass
You have no castable abilities for the beginning
and you want to assure you can take advantage of Greevil's Greed at the first level with Quelling Blade and no reduction in armour (no Acid Spray yet).
Quelling Blade doesn't sound as hurtful to start with, I feel.
On February 18 2016 19:08 Verniy wrote:
i was under the impression max greed first is super situational at best. like basically only done if you're getting completely uncontested freefarm, which shouldn't really happen if you're mid unless you're laning against a hero that has no business being mid in the first place.
You're right, it is greedy.
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SoCal8910 Posts
you only need one point in greed.
max spray for zoning and control over the lane as well as wave clear to get the bounty runes.
also - greaves on veno is questionable if you're gonna put tranqs into his starting build.
played a game with him the other day, and im not saying this is the best for a guide, but he feels like a midas hero much like AA. the utility you gain from him being a suicide bomber means youre not getting levels or gold. midas solves that issue.
i also like lothar in situational. euls in situational to purge silence (in absence of greaves). and octarine as the luxury item of all luxury items.
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EPT
