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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On February 19 2016 08:28 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2016 08:21 ahswtini wrote:
aghs gives u everything u want on enchantress. hp to survive nukes, agi for atk speed, int to cast spears Drums is less than half the price and gives you an awesome aura too, worse HP/mana due to 1/1/1 less stats and no point booster stats. Agha is good for sure, the attack range increase particularly, I only question getting it as early as it is. Kinda awkward buildup and doesn't help your team.
i mean my enchantress build is phase drums dragon lance aghs, thats 3rd core item
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On February 19 2016 09:31 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2016 08:28 Birdie wrote:On February 19 2016 08:21 ahswtini wrote:
aghs gives u everything u want on enchantress. hp to survive nukes, agi for atk speed, int to cast spears Drums is less than half the price and gives you an awesome aura too, worse HP/mana due to 1/1/1 less stats and no point booster stats. Agha is good for sure, the attack range increase particularly, I only question getting it as early as it is. Kinda awkward buildup and doesn't help your team. i mean my enchantress build is phase drums dragon lance aghs, thats 3rd core item
Ye that's pretty reasonable. I kinda like building lance before drums, and there's a high probability I need a bkb before agha but 3rd core item's not too bad.
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SoCal8910 Posts
i think that the discrepancy is the difference between your definitions of "core" 
ahswtini you like phase over treads? any reason why? or is it bc you just like the phase drums combo
On February 19 2016 09:30 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2016 07:48 Torte de Lini wrote:
To-Do
2. Revise Build Categories (tentative thoughts: Middle, Jungle, Safe[lane], Off[lane], [Utility?])
Okay wait how did this change back to a set of categories that does not contain support? The only categories that make sense to me are Core, Support, and possibly Offlane. The main downside would be an inability to differentiate heroes who would skill differently in mid versus safelane. I think that's unfortunate but acceptable.
i think that the utility role is the support role.
you do need to differentiate between mid and safe lane farm builds on many heroes, so personally i'd like
"Safe Lane Core (Farmer)" (or just "Safe Lane Farm") "Mid Lane Core" "Support (Roamer/Jungler)" "Support (Lane)" "Offlane Core"
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
Idk I just click harder and chase ppl more easily. I only play her offlane
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SoCal8910 Posts
On February 19 2016 10:02 ahswtini wrote:
Idk I just click harder and chase ppl more easily. I only play her offlane
that makes more sense then. i prefer her offlane as well.
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I'm pretty sure ench mid vs OD/right click mids is the best thing ever
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United States47024 Posts
Ench mid was a counterpick to OD/Viper when 1v1 tournaments were a thing, so that's reasonable.
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On February 19 2016 09:58 BluemoonSC wrote:i think that the discrepancy is the difference between your definitions of "core" ahswtini you like phase over treads? any reason why? or is it bc you just like the phase drums combo Show nested quote +On February 19 2016 09:30 Belisarius wrote:On February 19 2016 07:48 Torte de Lini wrote:
To-Do
2. Revise Build Categories (tentative thoughts: Middle, Jungle, Safe[lane], Off[lane], [Utility?])
Okay wait how did this change back to a set of categories that does not contain support? The only categories that make sense to me are Core, Support, and possibly Offlane. The main downside would be an inability to differentiate heroes who would skill differently in mid versus safelane. I think that's unfortunate but acceptable. i think that the utility role is the support role. you do need to differentiate between mid and safe lane farm builds on many heroes, so personally i'd like "Safe Lane Core (Farmer)" (or just "Safe Lane Farm") "Mid Lane Core" "Support (Roamer/Jungler)" "Support (Lane)" "Offlane Core"
That's way too many builds though. Torte has said he won't go past some hard cap - I think 150 builds? - and we're currently at like 147 or something.
The only way it's possible to create guides is by merging others, and there are a very significant number of heroes who play indistinguishably from mid and safelane past 5 minutes. I even made a list the last time we talked about this. Roaming vs babysitting support is usually an even more minor distinction.
The more specific roles also change constantly from patch to patch (the fact that we have a mid LC guide is a good example of this). It's much more stable in the long term to designate broad categories, like core and support.
Whenever you end up playing a... idk... a core pugna, for example, you would just use that guide and make minor adjustments with respect to whether you're a safelane farmer, a mid or in an aggressive offlane. That way Torte doesn't have to constantly create and delete a mid guide based on whether Sumail has recently been spamming pugna.
The sheer number of guides that you would need to cover all possibilities - especially when many of those possibilities only exist for one patch - is massive. Deleting and adding guides is also a big deal because a deleted guide loses all its current subscribers and a new one has to start from scratch.
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111 heroes, so assuming minimum one guide per hero then only room for 39 dual-role/guide heroes.
Honestly looking at most of the heroes there's maybe 15 heroes which consistently play in two significantly different roles (not including mid vs safelane). Add a few heroes which could jungle or lane (LC lone druid axe batrider etc.) and you're at like 25 dual-role guides. If you merge mid and safelane guides, get rid of the non-standard guides, and merge overly-similar guides then there's plenty of room in 150.
Dual role heroes who build different based on roles, not including jungle/lane (to clarify, earth shaker offlane items wouldn't exactly be different from support shaker, barring ward/courier/smoke purchases, except that he would get them earlier).
Arc Warden, Kunkka, Lina, Lone Druid (kinda?) Mirana, Naga Siren, Silencer, Tusk (this one's tricky a bit), Venge, Warlock, Windranger, Zeus.
There are others who play multiple roles but don't really USUALLY play the other role, e.g. sven support or jugg support. Tide undying and a couple others might play support OR offlane but then don't itemize much differently and can be contained in one guide.
Dual role junglers:
Axe, Batrider, Bloodseeker, Doom (idk if still true or not), Enchantress, Enigma (I think this is played offlane now? Could be wrong), LC, Lifestealer (not sure if true or not, hate to see this hero in the jungle), Lycan (same as Lifestealer), Lone Druid (same as Lifestealer), NP (same as Lifestealer), SK, Terrorblade (same as Lifestealer), Ursa (same as Lifestealer).
Half of those probably don't belong in the jungle at all. 17 dual role heroes all up, + 111 ordinary roles = 128 guides ez katka.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On February 19 2016 11:16 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2016 09:58 BluemoonSC wrote:i think that the discrepancy is the difference between your definitions of "core" ahswtini you like phase over treads? any reason why? or is it bc you just like the phase drums combo On February 19 2016 09:30 Belisarius wrote:On February 19 2016 07:48 Torte de Lini wrote:
To-Do
2. Revise Build Categories (tentative thoughts: Middle, Jungle, Safe[lane], Off[lane], [Utility?])
Okay wait how did this change back to a set of categories that does not contain support? The only categories that make sense to me are Core, Support, and possibly Offlane. The main downside would be an inability to differentiate heroes who would skill differently in mid versus safelane. I think that's unfortunate but acceptable. i think that the utility role is the support role. you do need to differentiate between mid and safe lane farm builds on many heroes, so personally i'd like "Safe Lane Core (Farmer)" (or just "Safe Lane Farm") "Mid Lane Core" "Support (Roamer/Jungler)" "Support (Lane)" "Offlane Core" That's way too many builds though. Torte has said he won't go past some hard cap - I think 150 builds? - and we're currently at like 147 or something. The only way it's possible to create guides is by merging others, and there are a very significant number of heroes who play indistinguishably from mid and safelane past 5 minutes. I even made a list the last time we talked about this. Roaming vs babysitting support is usually an even more minor distinction. The more specific roles also change constantly from patch to patch (the fact that we have a mid LC guide is a good example of this). It's much more stable in the long term to designate broad categories, like core and support. Whenever you end up playing a... idk... a core pugna, for example, you would just use that guide and make minor adjustments with respect to whether you're a safelane farmer, a mid or in an aggressive offlane. That way Torte doesn't have to constantly create and delete a mid guide based on whether Sumail has recently been spamming pugna. The sheer number of guides that you would need to cover all possibilities - especially when many of those possibilities only exist for one patch - is massive. Deleting and adding guides is also a big deal because a deleted guide loses all its current subscribers and a new one has to start from scratch.
but you would definitely play an offlane enchantress different from roaming/jungling. for those heroes, the distinction should be made.
for everything else, like birdie said, one guide is enough.
truthfully, he could name the individual guides whatever he wanted so if there was the same build for mid and safe lane pugna, he could call it "Pugna (Mid/Safe Lane Core Farmer)" or "Core Pugna (Farming)"
TLDR; IMO the names don't have to be super strict and guides can overlap
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Instead of doing Core/Support/Offlane just do Mid, Mid/Safelane, Safelane, Jungle, Offlane, Support, Offlane/Support. If the guide is for both Mid and Safe, e.g. Ember Spirit, then it's called Ember Spirit (Mid/Safelane). If the hero is only ever played mid, or only ever carry, then it just has that lane. E.g. Luna (Safelane). Then within the guide you have starting items for Mid and starting items for Safelane, if applicable. Everything else should be the same, bam done.
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On February 19 2016 13:11 BluemoonSC wrote:
but you would definitely play an offlane enchantress different from roaming/jungling. for those heroes, the distinction should be made.
I don't think offlane enchantress has any different build than jungle enchantress. At least not one that's significant enough to make a difference for the level of player that wouldn't know better.
They play very differently, but the build is still pretty similar.
Dual role junglers:
Axe, Batrider, Bloodseeker, Doom (idk if still true or not), Enchantress, Enigma (I think this is played offlane now? Could be wrong), LC, Lifestealer (not sure if true or not, hate to see this hero in the jungle), Lycan (same as Lifestealer), Lone Druid (same as Lifestealer), NP (same as Lifestealer), SK, Terrorblade (same as Lifestealer), Ursa (same as Lifestealer).
For what it's worth if LC jungle becomes a guide again I'd probably stop contributing lol. It's one of the worst plagues of DotA.
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Wow, whole new subject.
This is a big subject, a pandora's box of issues and concerns from:
1. Ensuring merging guides has enough item space (from situational to extension/luxury: that's 7 tabs + 2 info tabs + up to 13 item rows). and avoid confusion/crowding.
2. Not overcomplicating the system with hybrid categories/builds.
3. Try and use as much of the current guides in place and revise appropriately (I am okay with deleting some guides, but would rather re-appropriate as many as possible).
4. Avoid making FOTM-style builds on the assumption they will be here to stay.
5. Staying within the limit of 150 (incl. Pit Lord Mid/Lane should there be a call for two guides). I don't know if I can handle going beyond 150. Already at 147 is pretty taxing each new patch. I am also not expert enough to be able to comfortably speak on some more utility-based builds (e.g Kunkka Support or alternative Invoker playstyles). I am finally catching up on testing and getting back in the groove of regular 4-5 games a night (and the changes made I feel are reflective of becoming first-hand better acquainted this patch).
Will read responses tomorrow at work. Lich will be hitting 1 million overnight and it is the project and guide system's anniversary in 2 days! 3 wonderful and hard-working years!
I don't know if it was noticed, but I began aligning and updating a lot of Mid/Lane guides to be similar to one another these past two months of published changes. Thus, when the transition is made (post-Shanghai Majors if things stay settled down), it won't be so harsh for regular guide users to see their favourite guides renovated to the new system.
This is under the assumption the workload is not too taxing nor massive in terms of revisions.
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
i dont see how its so complicated. just have core, support, and jungle for those heroes that can actually feasibly jungle. in cases of heroes like morph, replace support with offlane
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On February 19 2016 13:11 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2016 11:16 Belisarius wrote:On February 19 2016 09:58 BluemoonSC wrote:i think that the discrepancy is the difference between your definitions of "core" ahswtini you like phase over treads? any reason why? or is it bc you just like the phase drums combo On February 19 2016 09:30 Belisarius wrote:On February 19 2016 07:48 Torte de Lini wrote:
To-Do
2. Revise Build Categories (tentative thoughts: Middle, Jungle, Safe[lane], Off[lane], [Utility?])
Okay wait how did this change back to a set of categories that does not contain support? The only categories that make sense to me are Core, Support, and possibly Offlane. The main downside would be an inability to differentiate heroes who would skill differently in mid versus safelane. I think that's unfortunate but acceptable. i think that the utility role is the support role. you do need to differentiate between mid and safe lane farm builds on many heroes, so personally i'd like "Safe Lane Core (Farmer)" (or just "Safe Lane Farm") "Mid Lane Core" "Support (Roamer/Jungler)" "Support (Lane)" "Offlane Core" That's way too many builds though. Torte has said he won't go past some hard cap - I think 150 builds? - and we're currently at like 147 or something. The only way it's possible to create guides is by merging others, and there are a very significant number of heroes who play indistinguishably from mid and safelane past 5 minutes. I even made a list the last time we talked about this. Roaming vs babysitting support is usually an even more minor distinction. The more specific roles also change constantly from patch to patch (the fact that we have a mid LC guide is a good example of this). It's much more stable in the long term to designate broad categories, like core and support. Whenever you end up playing a... idk... a core pugna, for example, you would just use that guide and make minor adjustments with respect to whether you're a safelane farmer, a mid or in an aggressive offlane. That way Torte doesn't have to constantly create and delete a mid guide based on whether Sumail has recently been spamming pugna. The sheer number of guides that you would need to cover all possibilities - especially when many of those possibilities only exist for one patch - is massive. Deleting and adding guides is also a big deal because a deleted guide loses all its current subscribers and a new one has to start from scratch. but you would definitely play an offlane enchantress different from roaming/jungling. for those heroes, the distinction should be made. for everything else, like birdie said, one guide is enough. truthfully, he could name the individual guides whatever he wanted so if there was the same build for mid and safe lane pugna, he could call it "Pugna (Mid/Safe Lane Core Farmer)" or "Core Pugna (Farming)" TLDR; IMO the names don't have to be super strict and guides can overlap
I'm pretty sure we're now suggesting more or less the same thing. What birdie listed is exactly what I've been saying, just with different names. The important thing is that mid and safelane are compressed in most cases, as are roaming and lane supports.
Either naming system would work, but it still seems better to me to keep it as simple as possible with as few categories as possible, so core/support/offlane/(jungle) seems cleaner, more accessible and would require less upkeep and constant renaming.
I do think you're underestimating the number of heroes who have multiple roles. We need to cull at some point, and I suspect that point may be somewhere shy of offlane enchantress, but that's ultimately torte's decision.
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SoCal8910 Posts
at the same time, don't you think that being outright specific about what the guides goal is (roaming vs babysitter) makes it easier to know what your role is?
like, "support" is such a broad term. sure you buy the wards and the courier and the smokes, but what specifically should your goals be as that support?
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
because whether u roam or just sit in lane behind ur carry mostly depends on the game? there are few support heroes that are useless at roaming....i actually cant think of any tbh
its not like ur build even changes that much between roaming and babysitting. yes, support is a broad term, and it's not a guide's job to teach u general support things lol
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SoCal8910 Posts
fair enough! just sparking discussion. i think "Support" "Core" and "Mid" are probably sufficient.
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On February 19 2016 08:07 Velzi wrote:
I dont know if u want to max out Skewer before taking any points to empower, skewer doesnt scale particularly well, increased range or increased slow are not really that big of deal compared to damage increase to ur carry from empower.
I would get value point in empower either lvl2,lvl4 or lvl8 latest if u really think its not worth it, sometimes u want to get lvl1 empower for the easy last hits (when lane is easy to begin with, not OD like cancer).
f.e. Arise has 2-1-1 @lvl4 pretty much every game (either lvl1,lvl2 or lvl4 first point to empower) and most of time he has maxed empower @lvl12 latest (4-4-2-2).
 we can change the build to be more Max Q, 2 in E and max W by 8-13.
Thoughts?
On February 19 2016 08:11 Birdie wrote:
Manta Style on Ember isn't really a Luxury item, it's situational. You don't buy it because you're doing really well, you buy it because there's a non-dodgeable silence you really need to not die to.
Why is there an LC Middle build rofl
Is aghs actually core 3rd item on Enchantress? Whenever I get it I get it like 5th or 6th, there are some other pretty good items to build on her first like drums, bkb, maybe rod of aui (although I haven't tried that one yet).
For Drow I feel like even if you're going the Manta route you still want Agha no matter what, e.g. boots, hotd, manta, bkb, agha, MKB/Mael. I could be wrong but it definitely feels like a core item to me.
: How about BKB to extension and Manta in situational?
In 2014, we changed Legion Commander (Jungle) to (Middle). I personally use it over laning and it turns out fine/decent.
 it's definitely a third item, Dragon Lance is a good build-up given its extensive range/more damage and alleviates some issues Enchantress faces (since her movement speed is hardly a concern now).
I found Drums to be great, but ultimately not as necessary as I believed. The extra life was appreciated though.
On February 19 2016 09:30 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2016 07:48 Torte de Lini wrote:
To-Do
2. Revise Build Categories (tentative thoughts: Middle, Jungle, Safe[lane], Off[lane], [Utility?])
Okay wait how did this change back to a set of categories that does not contain support? The only categories that make sense to me are Core, Support, and possibly Offlane. The main downside would be an inability to differentiate heroes who would skill differently in mid versus safelane. I think that's unfortunate but acceptable.
Utility is Support.
On February 19 2016 11:16 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2016 09:58 BluemoonSC wrote:i think that the discrepancy is the difference between your definitions of "core" ahswtini you like phase over treads? any reason why? or is it bc you just like the phase drums combo On February 19 2016 09:30 Belisarius wrote:On February 19 2016 07:48 Torte de Lini wrote:
To-Do
2. Revise Build Categories (tentative thoughts: Middle, Jungle, Safe[lane], Off[lane], [Utility?])
Okay wait how did this change back to a set of categories that does not contain support? The only categories that make sense to me are Core, Support, and possibly Offlane. The main downside would be an inability to differentiate heroes who would skill differently in mid versus safelane. I think that's unfortunate but acceptable. i think that the utility role is the support role. you do need to differentiate between mid and safe lane farm builds on many heroes, so personally i'd like "Safe Lane Core (Farmer)" (or just "Safe Lane Farm") "Mid Lane Core" "Support (Roamer/Jungler)" "Support (Lane)" "Offlane Core" That's way too many builds though. Torte has said he won't go past some hard cap - I think 150 builds? - and we're currently at like 147 or something. The only way it's possible to create guides is by merging others, and there are a very significant number of heroes who play indistinguishably from mid and safelane past 5 minutes. I even made a list the last time we talked about this. Roaming vs babysitting support is usually an even more minor distinction. The more specific roles also change constantly from patch to patch (the fact that we have a mid LC guide is a good example of this). It's much more stable in the long term to designate broad categories, like core and support. Whenever you end up playing a... idk... a core pugna, for example, you would just use that guide and make minor adjustments with respect to whether you're a safelane farmer, a mid or in an aggressive offlane. That way Torte doesn't have to constantly create and delete a mid guide based on whether Sumail has recently been spamming pugna. The sheer number of guides that you would need to cover all possibilities - especially when many of those possibilities only exist for one patch - is massive. Deleting and adding guides is also a big deal because a deleted guide loses all its current subscribers and a new one has to start from scratch.
this is has some truth to it. I'd like to avoid deleting too many guides and just start re-appropriating.
On February 19 2016 12:36 Birdie wrote:
111 heroes, so assuming minimum one guide per hero then only room for 39 dual-role/guide heroes.
Honestly looking at most of the heroes there's maybe 15 heroes which consistently play in two significantly different roles (not including mid vs safelane). Add a few heroes which could jungle or lane (LC lone druid axe batrider etc.) and you're at like 25 dual-role guides. If you merge mid and safelane guides, get rid of the non-standard guides, and merge overly-similar guides then there's plenty of room in 150.
Dual role heroes who build different based on roles, not including jungle/lane (to clarify, earth shaker offlane items wouldn't exactly be different from support shaker, barring ward/courier/smoke purchases, except that he would get them earlier).
Arc Warden, Kunkka, Lina, Lone Druid (kinda?) Mirana, Naga Siren, Silencer, Tusk (this one's tricky a bit), Venge, Warlock, Windranger, Zeus.
There are others who play multiple roles but don't really USUALLY play the other role, e.g. sven support or jugg support. Tide undying and a couple others might play support OR offlane but then don't itemize much differently and can be contained in one guide.
Dual role junglers:
Axe, Batrider, Bloodseeker, Doom (idk if still true or not), Enchantress, Enigma (I think this is played offlane now? Could be wrong), LC, Lifestealer (not sure if true or not, hate to see this hero in the jungle), Lycan (same as Lifestealer), Lone Druid (same as Lifestealer), NP (same as Lifestealer), SK, Terrorblade (same as Lifestealer), Ursa (same as Lifestealer).
Half of those probably don't belong in the jungle at all. 17 dual role heroes all up, + 111 ordinary roles = 128 guides ez katka.
Step 1 and 2 are to determine what is remaining and what is changing and then determining what is being changed/added/deleted.
It's a two-step process where you remove guides that no longer fit the new system and how the current guides are altered per title and new format. The additions are new guides to be considered that fit the new format (e.g. Invoker builds)
The complicated issue is guides that don't play too differently, but their starting/early/core items differ significantly enough and don't fit in a single build unless we reduce extension/luxury items to accommodate. Also then, if a new patch hits that clearly distinguishes the new combined guide, then we'd be stepping back to a guide we previously deleted.
On February 19 2016 13:34 Birdie wrote:
Instead of doing Core/Support/Offlane just do Mid, Mid/Safelane, Safelane, Jungle, Offlane, Support, Offlane/Support. If the guide is for both Mid and Safe, e.g. Ember Spirit, then it's called Ember Spirit (Mid/Safelane). If the hero is only ever played mid, or only ever carry, then it just has that lane. E.g. Luna (Safelane). Then within the guide you have starting items for Mid and starting items for Safelane, if applicable. Everything else should be the same, bam done.
Title is too long, some titles don't even fit as they are now (hence why I included them in a tab). I also want to avoid "hybrid" titles to avoid confusion.
On February 20 2016 00:52 BluemoonSC wrote:
at the same time, don't you think that being outright specific about what the guides goal is (roaming vs babysitter) makes it easier to know what your role is?
like, "support" is such a broad term. sure you buy the wards and the courier and the smokes, but what specifically should your goals be as that support?
yes, but the guide is meant to help the user learn how to play their hero and the ideal role through direction of items and how they mix with the hero's arsenal of abilities. Trying to fit in what thye should be doing through different phases of the game is trying to chase your own tail in difficulty.
To add, I also think it isn't necessary. It would be ideal if someone roamed as Veno or something (I roam a shitton with Bane and Veno); but harassing and baby-sitting as those two should be enough. Lower-levels are very inefficient and not always 'doing something'. I think we can relax in terms of ensuring they do their role; or at least not to point of expecting them to incredibly proactive.
One thing is for sure, this will be a long process with careful planning and forethought in immediate changes and future effects. Even going so far as identifying which hero guides need to be:
1. Changed
2. Unchanged
3. Deleted
4. Added
I am sure would have some discussion/argument (probably mostly stemming from my stubbornness).
I wish I could gauge the value of the subscribing user base to know if this change would help.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CeBmSLd.png)
