EPTIn-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 271
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Velzi
Finland659 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Well they kind of are in that some of the factors that lead to choosing a certain skill order leads to also choosing a certain set of boots, but you aren't getting that boot type BECAUSE you went that skill order. Basically Phase is better for laning if you get an advantage regardless, and always worth it if it gets you a kill at low levels. Treads are better for farming and are better lategame if the early advantages of Phase aren't relevant. If you max Desolate it's usually also because you expect to get kills with it, so Phase ends up lining up with that, but the reverse isn't true for when you max Dagger. You might max Dagger but then also want Phase because of Phase's laning strength or because a kill presents itself. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
the intricacies of the itemization/building your hero are lost in a guide, so this was a general statement meant to appeal to someone writing for the common denominator - your newbies. once they get better, they can make the individual decisions surrounding the hero and realizing that balancing your build's weaknesses with an item's strength or vice versa is appropriate. but i think that making guides "balanced" in this manner is the way to go. if you already have the movement speed from dagger to pick up a kill that's a strength normally found in phase, so you're better off getting treads to cover the weakness of "i am a flimsy paper bag early in the game," when you're looking at professional builds, their decision making pertaining to items is much more deep than you need to go for a guide. instead, you should be using it as guidelines for yourself, and then thinking about how their builds would lend themselves to a 1-3k pub. its a total shitshow there. you're gonna want the stats and the farm speed because they fight a lot and their farm patterns are terribly inefficient. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On an individual basis I would rather a newbie Spectre player buy Phase instead of Treads (since they are more likely to convert the lasthitting advantage of Phase in lane into a farm advantage than the raw farming speed of Treads when low level players don't utilize higher jungle farming efficiency to its full potential), and I would rather they go Dagger instead of Desolate (because newbie players don't know how to balance farming vs. aggression well on carries). On January 26 2016 07:22 BluemoonSC wrote: its a total shitshow there. you're gonna want the stats and the farm speed because they fight a lot and their farm patterns are terribly inefficient. Phase is better for this then. Phase is pretty regularly better for early-game focused play. Treads' advantage largely kicks in through farming speed and lategame advantage. In general damage is the more powerful stat early game while attack speed is more powerful lategame because you start with "more" attack speed than damage, but typically get more damage from later major items. Particularly if you are not maxing Desolate, you don't have enough damage to skew things to favor attack speed as an early fighting stat over damage. Also, if we're playing the "cater to 1-3k players" game, you have to also accept that Treads is effectively not a survivability item to players in that range. Most players there will set Treads to prime stat and never swap them to anything else. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
I mainly switched it up because I simply could not manage to farm, jungle or even secure kills with the previous build. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
TP scroll mentions using Mask of Madness which isn't part of the build anymore. Drums of Endurance mentions farming Agh's which also isn't on the list. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
On January 26 2016 07:31 TheYango wrote: I agree with all that, but I don't think that contributes to Phase+Dagger being "wrong" for a guide. On an individual basis I would rather a newbie Spectre player buy Phase instead of Treads (since they are more likely to convert the lasthitting advantage of Phase in lane into a farm advantage than the raw farming speed of Treads when low level players don't utilize higher jungle farming efficiency to its full potential), and I would rather they go Dagger instead of Desolate (because newbie players don't know how to balance farming vs. aggression well on carries). Phase is better for this then. Phase is pretty regularly better for early-game focused play. Treads' advantage largely kicks in through farming speed and lategame advantage. In general damage is the more powerful stat early game while attack speed is more powerful lategame because you start with "more" attack speed than damage, but typically get more damage from later major items. Particularly if you are not maxing Desolate, you don't have enough damage to skew things to favor attack speed as an early fighting stat over damage. Also, if we're playing the "cater to 1-3k players" game, you have to also accept that Treads is effectively not a survivability item to players in that range. Most players there will set Treads to prime stat and never swap them to anything else. I was under the assumption that since the client forces belt of strength when you click on the item, so they would leave it there but that's definitely a fair point. I personally don't see the inherent advantage of last hitting with phase when you have all of those small items before radiance, but you're right about it being easier. But like I said, I don't think that anything in the build is wrong. I just think that with the way the laning phase tends to drag in lower level games with either infinite or zero aggression, saying that "right now" farm is more important than "farm for later" is silly on a hard carry like spectre. For someone like jugg who has kill potential right from level 1, I would agree with this philosophy, though. Ultimately we just have different visions of how we'd want our trench tier spec to play the hero I think. Neither are incorrect. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Historically it's looked pretty close between the two, but since 6.86 you can see a trend of Phase becoming more popular. In 6.86 treads were more popular, but by 6.86d they've become almost 35% more popular than Treads and have a higher win rate (59.5% vs 57.5%). Over previous views the difference has been more of a 10-15% difference with sometimes treads being more popular. I know the general population stats are really wishy-washy and inaccurate, but if we have good cases for both items then it seems fine to look at as a tie breaker maybe? Certainly at least it'd indicate an item that is less likely to get you flamed in a game. And as of 6.86 (the only relevant difference between 6.86 and patches c & d would be time) Phase is an emerging 'standard'. At least until something comes along and changes the public opinion. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
I think it would be better to consider the meta heroes that spectre will likely be playing against and itemize around that. For some heroes, the most popular choices are popular bc of the meta that spectre is dealing with. Again it's just my personal opinion that with the way that the meta is panning out, treads urn is pretty solid most games whereas im not sure id want phase drums every game. I've encountered a LOT of fighting in 6.86 thus far and picking up an urn to continue to farm after you fight/push before your relic and radiance. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On January 27 2016 05:22 BluemoonSC wrote: Looking at item and hero stats is always very convoluted bc you have no idea why phase worked or why it was picked over another item. Yeah totally agree, but in this case we have strong arguments for both items. What else would tip the balance one way or another? There aren't really many objective ways to measure how successful an item is going to be in general pubs, especially boot choice where ultimately there's a lot of other bigger things that can overshadow it. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
Both have their pros and cons so we'd just debate in circles. I'm guilty of bringing it back up bc it's something I would prefer to see my safe lane spectre do so I figured while he was changing things around it would be a good time to bring it up, now that we have a better idea of what the patch is panning out to be. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Max Dagger is good Phase Boots helped Drums replace for Urn of Shadows Move Quelling Blade earlier Diffusal Situational | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
As well as iron talon so you can push the wave hard and take out a jungle camp before coming back to lane to farm again. The item is so good for its cost. You can even dismantle the basi for the armor component and the sage's mask for your urn HOLY SHIT im taking this to the spectre thread hehe (obviously this is too complicated to express in a guide..i still see timbersaws purchase an arcane orb instead of dismantling their boots lol) I also cant see the guides at work, but wand at the very least should be in there too. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
It's only when you start considering mid-tier items like Drum/Vanguard do those choices get hairy. | ||
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HackDice
United Kingdom3 Posts
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
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