EPTIn-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 270
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On January 18 2016 06:03 Torte de Lini wrote: After updating the Oracle guide and being unable to make an offlane "Aether Lens" build, I can understand the annoyance of not having a more Core/Support categorization. NOTES COMPLETED Heroes to test   | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
i've been a huge casual clarity fan this patch... that thing's gotten buffed from 100 mana over 30 seconds to 190 mana over 50 seconds in like 5 patches i STILL think you should at least put some hint of a gem in the aghs build, but i guess anyone knowing how to use the aghs effectively should already know the importance of gem there. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
Ideally when we switch to core/support/offlane you just tag him offlane, and if you really feel the manfight version is important to have you can create another. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On January 23 2016 10:43 Belisarius wrote: I would strongly prefer we switch NS completely to a ultility build. I really don't like parallel guides. Ideally when we switch to core/support/offlane you just tag him offlane, and if you really feel the manfight version is important to have you can create another. Yeah, I will create two guides when we make the switch over. It's not good the way it is now? | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
What I was referring to by parallel guides was this: On January 23 2016 07:05 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: as i envision it, the sections should read Core (utility), Extension/Situational (utility), Core (DPS), Extension/Situational (DPS)h ..because I think your clientele are probably not able to make those choices effectively. Choosing between support and core is usually fairly straightforward, but choosing between different types of cores is just asking for trouble. It's much better to tell them to do one thing and do it well than let them do multiple things badly. Aside from that specific breakdown I agree with everything else Tuna said, though. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 23 2016 12:30 Belisarius wrote: It's much better to tell them to do one thing and do it well than let them do multiple things badly. Torte does the latter sometimes anyway when he tries to hedge on different builds that have different goals and are equally good at doing their own thing but awful when mixed in any fashion. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
I am not sure what other example there could be off the top of my head though. I don't even understand how the Night Stalker build is a hybrid but rather just a blend of extension items ranging from easy/cheap purchases to larger, more aggressive ones. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On January 23 2016 14:14 Logo wrote: Is it too early to adjust the Enchantress Skill build to Max Untouchable first (possibly 4-1-1-1)? I don't think it's the only right build, but it feels like the more widely applicable one especially when pubs are less likely to coordinate early pushes. With dragon lance having max untouchable gives you a pretty strong timing where you can pressure pretty hard and enemy heroes don't have the BKBs to get around untouchable. i personally like at least the 2nd point in e (before 6)... feels pretty value and helps you survive some uncoordinated nuking sometimes | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
When you're level 7 nobody has high enough IAS for the difference between rank 3 and rank 4 to be meaningful. A Treads Agi carry still only has ~60% IAS is still going to drop to like 1 attack/3s (which is still in the range of "can't finish an autoattack unless they're disabled") with rank 3 and every other hero in the game is going to have way lower AS than that. You care more around level 10/11 when people have some items and more levels. There are a small number of heroes with powerful attack speed buffs early game that you can make exceptions for (e.g. Drow, NS), but that's not really the norm. Your survivability is a combination of your heal and Untouchable. Having high ranked Untouchable but a weak heal doesn't make you more survivable if your Untouchable ranks are overkill. Most of the time only 2-3 ranks are useful super early and the 4th one can come a bit later. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On January 23 2016 19:31 TheYango wrote: I'm pretty sure 4-1-1-1 is wrong most of the time. Attack speed floors out at -80% IAS and honestly is effectively not even that impactful close to that number (the difference between 1 attack every 4s and 1 attack every 8s is completely irrelevant because nobody sits there for 4s waiting for their autoattack animation to finish). When you're level 7 nobody has high enough IAS for the difference between rank 3 and rank 4 to be meaningful. A Treads Agi carry still only has ~60% IAS is still going to drop to like 1 attack/3s (which is still in the range of "can't finish an autoattack unless they're disabled") with rank 3 and every other hero in the game is going to have way lower AS than that. You care more around level 10/11 when people have some items and more levels. There are a small number of heroes with powerful attack speed buffs early game that you can make exceptions for (e.g. Drow, NS), but that's not really the norm. Your survivability is a combination of your heal and Untouchable. Having high ranked Untouchable but a weak heal doesn't make you more survivable if your Untouchable ranks are overkill. Most of the time only 2-3 ranks are useful super early and the 4th one can come a bit later. Why have builds like 4-1-1, 4-2-1, or 4-1-2 become so popular then? Though I'm totally on board for any variation of the build like 3 early ranks into a late fourth. I think the current one is wrong though. Untouchable comes super late and you miss out on taking advantage of it during early midgame timings. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
On January 23 2016 12:30 Belisarius wrote: No it's actually pretty fine now. It's maybe a bit of a hybrid, but that's much better than the old one. I'm not sure he does need a manfight guide even after the switch, but it's up to you to decide what you keep and what you cull. What I was referring to by parallel guides was this: ..because I think your clientele are probably not able to make those choices effectively. Choosing between support and core is usually fairly straightforward, but choosing between different types of cores is just asking for trouble. It's much better to tell them to do one thing and do it well than let them do multiple things badly. Aside from that specific breakdown I agree with everything else Tuna said, though. Ooh I get to use some teacher knowledge here! While it's important to show learners the bigger picture you have to take into account what happens when you give too much choice. Sometimes when you offer many options, learners don't know where to start or they don't have the required skills to choose between the options, nor do they have the knowledge to distinguish between when to use methods a-d. In this case talking about builds, it's the reason you'll see a np go midas into shadow blade into Dagon into desolator or something stupid like that. The build has no continuity bc they have so many options and they don't understand which is the right choice that fits their current setup. Making newbies choose between 4 builds is going to be a disaster bc if they don't understand the hero, they certainly won't understand which build is appropriate for the game state. (Side note - this is why common core algebra 1 sucks - they learn way too many ways to solve a quadratic and half of them are complete novices at math so they dont even understand why theyre doing what theyre doing and it winds up as a complete hot mess. So now imagine throwing a support, core, and 2 versions of a utility build at someone playing a hero for the first time with little Dota exp..that's what they're doing to the kids and it's overwhelming. And you'll overwhelm your users the same way) | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
On January 23 2016 19:31 TheYango wrote: I'm pretty sure 4-1-1-1 is wrong most of the time. Attack speed floors out at -80% IAS and honestly is effectively not even that impactful close to that number (the difference between 1 attack every 4s and 1 attack every 8s is completely irrelevant because nobody sits there for 4s waiting for their autoattack animation to finish). When you're level 7 nobody has high enough IAS for the difference between rank 3 and rank 4 to be meaningful. A Treads Agi carry still only has ~60% IAS is still going to drop to like 1 attack/3s (which is still in the range of "can't finish an autoattack unless they're disabled") with rank 3 and every other hero in the game is going to have way lower AS than that. You care more around level 10/11 when people have some items and more levels. There are a small number of heroes with powerful attack speed buffs early game that you can make exceptions for (e.g. Drow, NS), but that's not really the norm. Your survivability is a combination of your heal and Untouchable. Having high ranked Untouchable but a weak heal doesn't make you more survivable if your Untouchable ranks are overkill. Most of the time only 2-3 ranks are useful super early and the 4th one can come a bit later. I mean it's cute for heroes with a huge back swing (naix) but for the most part, this is correct. Is the build 2-1-2-1 into max e decent for the offlane? I was experimenting but only have limited experience. My experience was extremely positive with 4 heroes attempting to kill me and failing to do so. I'm sure I could have been more efficient leaving my q at 2 points BUT I can definitely confirm that 4-1-2-1 made me literally impossible to kill. e: actually i went 3-0-2-1. i cant remember why i decided not to get my w tho. i think i was being tri laned or something and didn't feel comfortable in the enemy jungle? | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
im pretty sure max q 4-1-1 meme comes from mainly ignorance also the way i had imagined the ns utility/dps split, it should be obvious the two shouldnt be mixed... but we shouldnt be giving too much credit i guess I mean it's cute for heroes with a huge back swing (naix) frontswing is the relevant term to the "attack point" or whatever, backswing is the cosmetic/cancellable part | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
but i think its very easy to say "of course thats how you read the guide, doesn't it make sense to get x, y, z when you have items a, b, c already?!?" however, the guides are aimed at the people that this DOESNT make sense to | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
last thing i'd say is if you're maxing dagger, you should be picking up treads. the new phase boots are not worth it when you are maxing a spell that allows you to move faster and enemies to be slowed. i think we had this discussion a while back. desolate first = phase to make up for the movement speed VS dagger first = treads to make up for the lack of desolate dmg with faster attacks for more procs in terms of engagements. if you're gonna have drums as a core item, i don't think you need that much movement speed tbh and spectre will get much more out of the attack speed and stats of the treads. its also worth noting that your illusions gain the benefits of the agility from treads whereas phase boots contribute nothing to the dps of your illusions when you haunt/manta. not super important especially when you get your radiance, when that is doing the dmg, but its something to consider. e: oh and the order of core items for void should definitely have agha AFTER blink | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On January 26 2016 06:28 BluemoonSC wrote: did we discuss a situational urn on spectre recently? additionally, the upgrade to iron talon is pretty crucial and quelling blade should probably be in early game items, not "core" imo. last thing i'd say is if you're maxing dagger, you should be picking up treads. the new phase boots are not worth it when you are maxing a spell that allows you to move faster and enemies to be slowed. i think we had this discussion a while back. desolate first = phase to make up for the movement speed VS dagger first = treads to make up for the lack of desolate dmg with faster attacks for more procs in terms of engagements. if you're gonna have drums as a core item, i don't think you need that much movement speed tbh and spectre will get much more out of the attack speed and stats of the treads. its also worth noting that your illusions gain the benefits of the agility from treads whereas phase boots contribute nothing to the dps of your illusions when you haunt/manta. not super important especially when you get your radiance, when that is doing the dmg, but its something to consider. e: oh and the order of core items for void should definitely have agha AFTER blink Yes, Sn0_Man mentioned Urn on Spectre and I opted for Drums. I didn't get to play any games with him yet. Strangely, even when maxing Dagger, I saw more people go Phase over Power Treads. Why do you think that is? | ||
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