EPTIn-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 269
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
it should involve arcanes that you will disassemble, urn, (midas), aghs, gem, maybe even wards because he's not bad to place them situational all sorts of utility, including vlads, force staff even, blink, linkens, bots whatever the fuck | ||
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CorsairHero
Canada9491 Posts
it has a high win rate and vision is cool s4 did it! | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On January 22 2016 18:44 CorsairHero wrote: aghs balanar is pretty good i think it has a high win rate and vision is cool s4 did it! I just played Night Stalker this game and felt that Armlet wasn't too great; but I need to play more to really get a feeling for it. I saw the Aghs rush on S4 and some more in i-League but felt it wouldn't be used properly in public games. I want to make an offlane Night Stalker with Aghs and use Middle as a more offensive Night Stalker. | ||
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CorsairHero
Canada9491 Posts
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/34505203/matches?hero=night-stalker phase as well | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On January 22 2016 19:01 CorsairHero wrote: yea #2 balanar player mind control almost always gets it http://www.dotabuff.com/players/34505203/matches?hero=night-stalker phase as well Oov and Vlad's are interesting pick-ups. I'm not sure why I have Treads on Night Stalker to be honest. I'll add him to the list to revisit. I saw in pro games, it's a straight Aghs rush for sure. I know the value of Aghs but I can never seem to be able to really take advantage of it. I either think it came too late or I still get caught out and stomped. I might have to just spam games with Night Stalker because I don't regularly play him, but early on, I do decent with kills and establish my first core item and then when the lanes break up, I fall apart. Night Stalker and Spectre (Radiance build) are two heroes I'm really suffering from. I can't get them right and I usually end up dragging the team down rather than carrying. For Spectre, if I don't play the Jungle right, I end up too weak to really follow-through on any fights that should be easy (hence me considering an early time like was suggested Urn of Shadows or Drums). Night Stalker is the follow-through beyond being proactice in ganks on the first two nights. Tomorrow, I'll try and play more Night Stalker games. I want to resume being more active on testing specific builds and heroes like I used to. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Especially in terms of sieging, so many pub sieges get annihilated because they run up (or up to) the high ground ramp) without vision then get dunked by the enemy team's initiation. At the very least I feel like the guide should recommend aghs around the item slot you'd expect the NS team to be looking to end the game (2nd or 3rd major item?). Though I must admit I say that more off feel than data. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 22 2016 19:01 CorsairHero wrote: yea #2 balanar player mind control almost always gets it http://www.dotabuff.com/players/34505203/matches?hero=night-stalker phase as well Phase vs. Treads is game dependent. It's simply one of those things where you should just use your brain to decide which is better for the game and as a consequence having one of them on a cookie-cutter item order isn't that useful. Honestly it doesn't take that complex of an understanding of the game to pick between Phase and Treads for most heroes that can get both, people just don't bother to think about it. Aghs on NS is pretty much a given when the hero simply isn't played as mid anymore. It's just a natural result of the hero moving into the offlane or ganking support role. Even when he gets played mid (as Alliance used him), his strategic role in the game is still the same as an offlane NS--it's just a team like Alliance naturally favors having their tempo hero mid with a farming offlane. The hero doesn't get enough farm priority to bank on him as a damage threat mid/lategame which trims a large list of selfish items off your item options (e.g. Armlet). | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
it seems that even though torte started mid in this game, it would have been prudent for him to build fully as 3/tempocontroller from the beginning http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2095799094 | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Bear in mind that it's not uncommon to have some weirdness in the order of the other skills when you look at DatDota/DotaBuff data on the hero. Often you will just float your level 2/4 skill points because points in Crippling Fear/Hunter in the Night do basically nothing during the day so you should very rarely even level them until the 4th minute in the game unless a specific situation arises where the 3s daytime silence from Crippling Fear gets you a kill. In some scenarios you just get 1 point in Void and float all your skill points until the first night time because in extremely oppressive lanes, you'll need to lasthit with Void and using rank 1 conserves mana. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On January 23 2016 07:01 TheYango wrote: That skill order is definitely wrong, since you're taking Void rank 4 at 8 instead of 7. Everything else is variable, but you definitely max Void at 7. Bear in mind that it's not uncommon to have some weirdness in the order of the other skills when you look at DatDota/DotaBuff data on the hero. The correct way to skill is to just float skill point because points in Crippling Fear/Hunter in the Night do basically nothing during the day so you should very rarely even level them until the 4th minute in the game unless a specific situation arises where the 3s daytime silence from Crippling Fear gets you a kill. Essentially what I saw was a delay in your ultimate to fit at least all three abilities (with a heavy lean towards Q). What I assumed is that the leveling of your ultimate was until after the first night was over (or closest to when its finishing).  changed Spectre's build to Q and added Drums. Going to try it out later today. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
i also feel like for ns, gem should go in core alongside the aghs (if aghs is going to be core), and the bkb might be situational you also might want to consider restructuring the mid guide to having a utility section (with the aghs and gem) and a dps section, as both types of games are still possible. it should be obvious that its a "one or the other" thing as of right now, you have utility items in core, but dps items in situational, and more dps items in extension (aside from vlads/ac which is good), missing a lot of potential utility items for the utility build (pipe, halberd, blink, force staff, glimmer cape, solar crest even aether lens are all sort of viable depending on the game) as i envision it, the sections should read Core (utility), Extension/Situational (utility), Core (DPS), Extension/Situational (DPS) might not fit though | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 23 2016 07:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Essentially what I saw was a delay in your ultimate to fit at least all three abilities (with a heavy lean towards Q). What I assumed is that the leveling of your ultimate was until after the first night was over (or closest to when its finishing). When you level everything that's not Void is situational. The only thing that isn't is maxing Void at 7. So you essentially messed up the only thing that's possible to get wrong. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On January 23 2016 07:10 TheYango wrote: When you level everything that's not Void is situational. The only thing that isn't is maxing Void at 7. So you essentially messed up the only thing that's possible to get wrong. I'm consistent like that. We can push the ult til 8, I've seen some builds like that as well. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
 Tiny (Lane) Tiny (Middle)Added Shadow Blade to Situational Items Removed Blade Mail Ogre Magi Added Orb of Venom to Core Items  Ursa (Lane)Created New Tab: "Early Game" Added Stout Shield to Starting Items Added Quelling Blade to Starting Items Moved Iron Talon to "Early Game" Moved Morbid Mask to "Early Game" Night Stalker New Skill Build: Q E Q E Q W Q R E E R W W R (1. Void 2. Hunter in the Night 3. Crippling Fear) Created New Tab: "Early Game" Added Boots of Speed to "Early Game" Added Phase Boots to Core Items Added Orb of Venom to Situational Items Added Pipe of Insight to Situational Items Added Solar Crest to Situational Items Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items Moved Bottle to "Early Game" Moved Urn of Shadows to "Early Game" Moved Heaven's Halberd to Extension Items Removed Tangos Removed Power Treads Removed Heart of Tarrasque Removed Abyssal Blade Removed Armlet of Mordiggan Removed Moon Shard SpectreNew Skill Build: Q W Q E Q R Q W W W R E E E R (1. Spectral Dagger 2. Desolate 3. Dispersion Moved Drums of Endurance to Core Items Nature's Prophet Added Phase Boots to Core Items Added Phase Boots to Core Items - Pusher Added Magic Wand to Core - Pusher Added Drums of Endurance to Core - Pusher Moved Necromonicon - Level 3 to Situational Items Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items Moved Daedalus to Luxury Items Removed Power Treads Keeper of the Light New Skill Build: E Q E Q E W E R W W W Q Q R R (1. Chakra Magic 2. Illuminate 3. Mana Leak) Treant Protector New Skill Build: E W E W E R E Q Q Q R Q W W R (1. Living Armor 2. Nature's Guise 3. Leech Seed) Added Iron Talon to Situational Items Added Refresher Items to Extension Items Moved Guardian Greaves to Core Items Moved Urn of Shadows to Situational Items Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items | ||
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Velzi
Finland659 Posts
Maxing q @7 is no brainer, value point in others should be standard. id like to propose qwqeqrq atleast for mid guide, u should be around lvl4 and have boots when first night comes so the 2nd lvl in e isnt that big of a deal compared to value silence and maxed nuke. U can push the ult to 8 if u really want to, and get more lvls in e, or delay w for later than lvl4, but like i said, no reason to make it more complicated than it already is. And in the current meta where u see only ranged mids (like 99% of the time) stout shield should be standard for melee mid like NS, gives u a lot more sustain than mango is never going to net u. Especially when u are going to buy bottle anyways, extra burst mana loses its value even more. Stout, double branch and tango costs 425, u are left with 200g + potential min 0 rune so having bottle at min 2 rune shouldnt be too hard (like 4 last hits). and (are we expecting shared tangos since so many guides are ignoring tangoes in starting items?) I mean i just checked multiple mid guides and there are quite a few guides where there is no regen at all at start? I mean i dont even get shared tangoes in 5k, are we expecting them from the people who follow these guides from step to step? Did i miss something? | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On January 23 2016 08:11 Velzi wrote: Then again its a guide for the "scrubs", no reason to make it too complicated, rather make it easy to understand and easy to use. Maxing q @7 is no brainer, value point in others should be standard. id like to propose qwqeqrq atleast for mid guide, u should be around lvl4 and have boots when first night comes so the 2nd lvl in e isnt that big of a deal compared to value silence and maxed nuke. U can push the ult to 8 if u really want to, and get more lvls in e, or delay w for later than lvl4, but like i said, no reason to make it more complicated than it already is. And in the current meta where u see only ranged mids (like 99% of the time) stout shield should be standard for melee mid like NS, gives u a lot more sustain than mango is never going to net u. Especially when u are going to buy bottle anyways, extra burst mana loses its value even more. Stout, double branch and tango costs 425, u are left with 200g + potential min 0 rune so having bottle at min 2 rune shouldnt be too hard (like 4 last hits). and (are we expecting shared tangos since so many guides are ignoring tangoes in starting items?) I mean i just checked multiple mid guides and there are quite a few guides where there is no regen at all at start? I mean i dont even get shared tangoes in 5k, are we expecting them from the people who follow these guides from step to step? Did i miss something? I think I just really like Mango in general for including it in as Starting Items. I didn't use it until I was 6 but it was quite useful. I can swap it out and add a Stout Shield, I agree with that assessment. What regularly happens with the Mango was that I would gank, use up a bottle in time for another gank and then I don't have the mana to follow-through for multiple Qs and the Mango came in handy in that junction. | ||
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