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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 204

Forum Index > The Tavern
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Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 10 2015 15:55 GMT
#4061
The thing is that during the laning phase you end up tanking some damage in the face no matter how good you are. The reduction is great while you are backing up, but harassing the other carry or support requires you to face them, unless you're burning through mana. Maybe not great all the time, but you have to jungle with that hero too.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1364 Posts
August 10 2015 16:11 GMT
#4062
PMS should be Situational on Centaur IMO, for the same circumstances as the early point in Return; the combination does delay Tranquil Boots but lets him actively last hit in a lot of lanes he'd otherwise need to passively soak XP in.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-10 19:15:26
August 10 2015 19:11 GMT
#4063
On August 11 2015 00:35 Plansix wrote:
Torte, we were using your guide for phantom lance and folks noticed you had two clarities in the starting items. The general consensus was that clarities are super bad on melee cores because to use them requires you to give up last hits or be scared. And when I say we, it was Ran and Blue along with a couple other 4-5K players.

And poor man’s shield is OP during laning. Many melee cores should consider it a must buy That was the other thing.


I can remove Clarity.

PMS was phased out for a lot of melee heroes because Aquila offers the minor mana regen needed and it's all-around more accomodating (in and out of lane).


PMS is still as Core/situational for:
Anti-Mage
Ember Spirit
Faceless Void
Riki
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
August 10 2015 19:26 GMT
#4064
I'd say its situational at least on pretty much any QB-using Agi carry.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-11 11:54:52
August 10 2015 19:27 GMT
#4065
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
August 10 2015 19:56 GMT
#4066
these guides are starting to feel endlessly outdated.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
August 11 2015 02:12 GMT
#4067
On August 11 2015 04:11 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2015 00:35 Plansix wrote:
Torte, we were using your guide for phantom lance and folks noticed you had two clarities in the starting items. The general consensus was that clarities are super bad on melee cores because to use them requires you to give up last hits or be scared. And when I say we, it was Ran and Blue along with a couple other 4-5K players.

And poor man’s shield is OP during laning. Many melee cores should consider it a must buy That was the other thing.


I can remove Clarity.

PMS was phased out for a lot of melee heroes because Aquila offers the minor mana regen needed and it's all-around more accomodating (in and out of lane).


PMS is still as Core/situational for:
Anti-Mage
Ember Spirit
Faceless Void
Riki


the thing about PMS is, while you aren't wrong about the mana regen, it allows melee heroes to navigate their lane a lot better than they otherwise would by pretty much negating creep dmg half of the time as well as reducing incoming harass by around 1/3 depending on the hero doing the harassing. this is something aquilla cannot do but you get it much sooner than the aquilla AND you can purchase the slippers from the side shop whereas you need to ferry the other components for the ROA.

FYI in your guide it still shows clarities in the starting items. if you simply remove the clarity, you wind up with 200g left over. use that to buy a RoP and they can then finish their basi at the side shop, choosing to get that or the PMS, or even both since the 6 agi is nice if they so choose.
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
August 11 2015 09:41 GMT
#4068
I'm keeping a clarity on there for all-around purpose.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-11 10:25:58
August 11 2015 10:24 GMT
#4069
clarity on pl is completely unnecessary. he has a decent mana pool, he gets aquila, and bottle is a situationally appropriate pickup on him. tango salve stout 2x branches is superior, as is my personal preference which is tango salve rop circlet. i dont even understand what "all round purpose" having the clarity serves

the only melee heroes i would buy a clarity for are wraith king, tiny, maybe ck, ie. heroes that literally can only cast one spell before they run out of mana. their small mana pool means that while u wont get the full value out of clarity, u wont forced away from the creeps to regen for too long either

also pms is a situational item but u shud not treat aquila as a substitute for it. pms is like the best first item to get once u enter lane if u expect to be harassed a lot, or u will be fighting a lot.
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-11 11:51:49
August 11 2015 11:45 GMT
#4070
I can remove the second clarity and add Ring of Protection.

I'm not looking to add PMS to heroes who already have a lot of situational items to consider, or have a lot of items in their guide. I feel, in most cases, Ring of Aquila would be sufficient to survive during the laning phase where harassment is inconsistent.

For Phantom Lancer, who can jungle relatively early, I don't think the consideration of PMS should be warranted or bog down the decision-making of a player. I recall for Anti-Mage that we had PMS slotted though even at the higher levels, Ring of Health was usually sufficient for the entire early-game.

I don't see anyone buying PMS for Phantom Lancer right now and it just doesn't appear to be valued enough to be implemented to a hero that already has a minimum of 4 items per tab (6 tabs/24 items total).

Though I have been putting in more items into the guides as of recently (from 2 to 3 to now 4 to 5 maximum), I want to avoid the collection from becoming those builds where they put 9 different choice items for every possibility of the spectrum during all phases of the game. We don't have to cover every possibility or scenario, it just has to be enough of a guiding hand to give people the confidence. We won't be blamed if they were harassed too much from not putting PMS because there are so many other factors that would affect their gameplay and outcome as a whole.

The heroes are a colouring book that players need to colour fully every game, we just tell them the colours that would usually look good for that hero.

I'll look into other heroes that may need it and their hero pool is rather small. I know for some heroes, I have trouble last-hitting and it would help.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-14 16:08:20
August 11 2015 11:58 GMT
#4071
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
August 11 2015 15:26 GMT
#4072
On August 11 2015 20:45 Torte de Lini wrote:
I can remove the second clarity and add Ring of Protection.

I'm not looking to add PMS to heroes who already have a lot of situational items to consider, or have a lot of items in their guide. I feel, in most cases, Ring of Aquila would be sufficient to survive during the laning phase where harassment is inconsistent.

For Phantom Lancer, who can jungle relatively early, I don't think the consideration of PMS should be warranted or bog down the decision-making of a player. I recall for Anti-Mage that we had PMS slotted though even at the higher levels, Ring of Health was usually sufficient for the entire early-game.

I don't see anyone buying PMS for Phantom Lancer right now and it just doesn't appear to be valued enough to be implemented to a hero that already has a minimum of 4 items per tab (6 tabs/24 items total).

Though I have been putting in more items into the guides as of recently (from 2 to 3 to now 4 to 5 maximum), I want to avoid the collection from becoming those builds where they put 9 different choice items for every possibility of the spectrum during all phases of the game. We don't have to cover every possibility or scenario, it just has to be enough of a guiding hand to give people the confidence. We won't be blamed if they were harassed too much from not putting PMS because there are so many other factors that would affect their gameplay and outcome as a whole.

The heroes are a colouring book that players need to colour fully every game, we just tell them the colours that would usually look good for that hero.

I'll look into other heroes that may need it and their hero pool is rather small. I know for some heroes, I have trouble last-hitting and it would help.


i understand where you're coming from and agree you don't want to bog people down, but my explanation on the PMS was just to clarify your misconception of the item.
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Thetwinmasters
Profile Joined January 2015
3578 Posts
August 11 2015 17:10 GMT
#4073
Can u put back ghost scepter for lesh middle in situational there are some games were it is absolutely needed on that hero
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
August 11 2015 18:38 GMT
#4074
On August 12 2015 02:10 Thetwinmasters wrote:
Can u put back ghost scepter for lesh middle in situational there are some games were it is absolutely needed on that hero


yepyep
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
August 11 2015 22:05 GMT
#4075
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=128922664

Faceless Void about to hit 1 million.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
August 12 2015 14:17 GMT
#4076
On August 12 2015 07:05 Torte de Lini wrote:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=128922664

Faceless Void about to hit 1 million.


have you ever thought about changing that to 1-1-3-1 so that the first chrono kill has a higher chance of success?

shame he's gone from the meta, i enjoy playing faceless..he just comes on way too late compared to other carries atm unless the other team just groups up lol
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
August 13 2015 08:30 GMT
#4077
yeah backtrack is for pussies
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
August 13 2015 09:57 GMT
#4078
Isn't the range especially critical? 700 to 900?
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
August 13 2015 10:05 GMT
#4079
thats why im usually 2-0-4-1 by lvl 7
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
August 13 2015 13:05 GMT
#4080
He's suggesting one less in Q.

I don't think we'll change it. The current build is a good middle-ground, no?
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
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