EPTIn-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 205
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
you can even do a 4-0-4-1 before you start taking points in it. pub friendly might be 2-4-4-2 (while opening 2-0-4-1), but i think i'd prefer the former. btw torte your tool tip for drow's precision aura is incorrect. her precision aura does not disappear if enemies are nearby, just the agility from her ultimate if they are within 400 units. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On August 13 2015 23:40 BluemoonSC wrote: yeah idk 10% is a number greater than zero, but even then, before you get a couple points into backtrack, if someone wants to kill you, they're gonna kill you unless you're literally RNGesus. IMO its more relevant later on when nukes are stronger and carries hit you harder so i'd rather have the points elsewhere. so if you're going to leave one point in it and max it last anyway, you're better off with that point going to one of your other skills. you can even do a 4-0-4-1 before you start taking points in it. pub friendly might be 2-4-4-2 (while opening 2-0-4-1), but i think i'd prefer the former. btw torte your tool tip for drow's precision aura is incorrect. her precision aura does not disappear if enemies are nearby, just the agility from her ultimate if they are within 400 units. TEXTBOXES ARE ALL BUGGED, CANT EDIT ANY OF THEM Let me take a double-look at Void, but I'm fairly sure this is the right build overall. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 14 2015 02:06 BluemoonSC wrote: again, think about that first chronosphere..would you rather have 10% chance to evade an attack or 20% to do 60 dmg (vs 15% to do 50 dmg) I mean, that's a shit comparison because the reason you'd ever get Backtrack pre-6 is for laning damage mitigation, not for anything to do with Chrono. You still want to be 2-0-3 ideally, though. The one thing is if you're going to get Backtrack at all, you get it at level 1/2. There's no reason you'd ever wait till 4 to get it, because if it's a hard lane where you want damage mitigation, it's useless by level 4 because they've autoattacked all your regen down by level 4. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
FWIW, Torte, I think your reasoning of "too many small items delays core too much" is total bogus for low level pub games. Low level pub games where people don't farm efficiently and fight randomly all the time are where stacking a ton of efficient small items is most effective. Being greedy takes an intelligent, experienced, and discerning player to do correctly, so for inexperienced players, it's better to err on the side of too many efficient small fighting items than too few--even when talking about traditional afk-farm heroes. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
On August 14 2015 02:21 TheYango wrote: I mean, that's a shit comparison because the reason you'd ever get Backtrack pre-6 is for laning damage mitigation, not for anything to do with Chrono. You still want to be 2-0-3 ideally, though. The one thing is if you're going to get Backtrack at all, you get it at level 1/2. There's no reason you'd ever wait till 4 to get it, because if it's a hard lane where you want damage mitigation, it's useless by level 4 because they've autoattacked all your regen down by level 4. it's still pretty useless because you only have 10% chance to avoid the dmg anyway On August 14 2015 02:24 Sn0_Man wrote: dont forget bash is double dmg in chrono oh shit yeah i forgot about that..makes the points in time lock all the more valuable early before you have items | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
It's useless 90% of the time and has no place being in a guide, but "it contributes nothing to level 6 Chrono burst" isn't a good argument for why because ofc. nobody uses level 6 Chrono burst as a consideration when they're leveling a purely defensive skill, lol. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
On August 14 2015 02:59 TheYango wrote: It's useless 90% of the time and has no place being in a guide, but "it contributes nothing to level 6 Chrono burst" isn't a good argument for why because ofc. nobody uses level 6 Chrono burst as a consideration when they're leveling a purely defensive skill, lol. if they're following a guide, they're probably not thinking about WHY they're getting a point in the spell in the first place. but i still fail to see why the consideration of "my first chrono use is important, let me do things to help ensure its a kill" doesn't play into the decision making of your first 6 skill points lol | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 14 2015 03:18 BluemoonSC wrote: but i still fail to see why the consideration of "my first chrono use is important, let me do things to help ensure its a kill" doesn't play into the decision making of your first 6 skill points lol It does, but nobody who's actually making that decision doesn't already know that Backtrack is a purely defensive skill. It's an utterly pointless thing to bring up. Saying that 1 skill point is too high a cost to pay for 10% evasion when you could already buy similar laning survivability from items for a small amount of gold is fair to bring up. So is the fact that in most lanes the level 6 Chrono kill will probably impact the lane more than taking 10% less damage throughout laning up to that point is also fair. Saying that a purely defensive skill doesn't increase your level 6 Chrono kill damage is only going to get you the answer "no shit". Saying that someone is going to kill you if they want to kill you regardless is also similarly not useful because evasion's usually evaluated on it's normalized usefulness as a defensive stat over an extended period of time anyway. You don't buy Butterfly because you hope to RNG 3 misses in a row, you buy it because it's a multiplicative 30% reduction to a carry's damage to you over time. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On August 14 2015 02:35 Plansix wrote: Wouldn't a PMS be better damage mitigation in lane than a early point in back track? If that is the goal of the guide, just make PMS core for early game and ditch the point in backtrack. It is core early-game. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=128922664 On August 14 2015 02:39 TheYango wrote: It's not, though PMS is less of an investment, so regardless you'd only ever level Backtrack if you already were getting PMS and it wasn't good enough. Though maybe that triggers Torte's worry about too many small items, IDK. FWIW, Torte, I think your reasoning of "too many small items delays core too much" is total bogus for low level pub games. Low level pub games where people don't farm efficiently and fight randomly all the time are where stacking a ton of efficient small items is most effective. Being greedy takes an intelligent, experienced, and discerning player to do correctly, so for inexperienced players, it's better to err on the side of too many efficient small fighting items than too few--even when talking about traditional afk-farm heroes. I think it's the opposite. Getting your core items as soon as possible let's you excel with your hero best rather than be bogged down by the smaller items that might elevate a weak laning phase, but ultimately draws out the time until you can actually do something with your hero. Especially true for heroes who want Blink Dagger. I always think of Centaur Warrunner who is just amazing with Blink Dagger, but before (not with his ultimate now) he's pretty hard to initiate with. Same with other heroes like Earthshaker, in my opinion. That is the cases I always refer to when I mention my dislike for having too many small items (or too many in general) as I feel the laning phase is usually poorly played on both sides. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
On August 14 2015 03:26 TheYango wrote: It does, but nobody who's actually making that decision doesn't already know that Backtrack is a purely defensive skill. It's an utterly pointless thing to bring up. Saying that 1 skill point is too high a cost to pay for 10% evasion when you could already buy similar laning survivability from items for a small amount of gold is fair to bring up. So is the fact that in most lanes the level 6 Chrono kill will probably impact the lane more than taking 10% less damage throughout laning up to that point is also fair. Saying that a purely defensive skill doesn't increase your level 6 Chrono kill damage is only going to get you the answer "no shit". Saying that someone is going to kill you if they want to kill you regardless is also similarly not useful because evasion's usually evaluated on it's normalized usefulness as a defensive stat over an extended period of time anyway. You don't buy Butterfly because you hope to RNG 3 misses in a row, you buy it because it's a multiplicative 30% reduction to a carry's damage to you over time. dunno dude, i think you're looking wayyyyyy too far into what i said lol On August 14 2015 04:01 Torte de Lini wrote: I think it's the opposite. Getting your core items as soon as possible let's you excel with your hero best rather than be bogged down by the smaller items that might elevate a weak laning phase, but ultimately draws out the time until you can actually do something with your hero. Especially true for heroes who want Blink Dagger. I always think of Centaur Warrunner who is just amazing with Blink Dagger, but before (not with his ultimate now) he's pretty hard to initiate with. Same with other heroes like Earthshaker, in my opinion. That is the cases I always refer to when I mention my dislike for having too many small items (or too many in general) as I feel the laning phase is usually poorly played on both sides. i think yango was pointing towards heroes that don't require a blink dagger to be more useful..thats why he said "traditional afk-farm heroes." but if you look at, say, your TA guide. your build is fine, but in a pub where everything is constantly going awry, i almost always get a stick and ROA because those small items have an impact on the game when you know you're not going to be able to go from upgraded boots straight to your blink dagger or deso without getting into some shit, even if you're stacking ancients. and even then, those small items help you accelerate your farm into the bigger items. sure the ROA delays your blink by 1k gold, but the next 2k gold will come much faster since your hero has more to her. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
You do end up replacing stuff really fast if you have treads tp qb pms stick/wand mom. Also completely unsure where this discussion is going in the first place. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
But intrinsically low level pub players 1) don't farm fast or efficiently, and 2) always fight a lot when they shouldn't, so neither of the two components that make small items "not worth it" are actually ever true in low level play. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
The key is that the majority of players will tend towards greed when making changes. In my opinion, pushing back against that by encouraging minor items is exactly what you should be doing. It takes a lot more experience to recognise the value of an incremental stat boost than it does to recognise the value of a battlefury/radiance/MoM etc, so it's up to you to make people buy the little stuff. The average trenchlord will sometimes skip it anyway, and that's fine, because he would almost never buy a minor item that delays his core unless told to do so. | ||
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