Textboxes are still bugged, guides seem to be loading properly; so I will adjust them this week.

Won't be playing a lot of Dota for the coming month to two months sadly, will be updating the guides based on TI and feedback overall.

Another transition in life requires attention.

BluemoonSC

SoCal8933 Posts

August 04 2015 22:06 GMT

#3967

torte, i think your SF build needs its first 2 pts switched around.

raze @ lvl 1 and necromastery @ lvl 2

oh and blink dagger for situational. i think your core items need some work too.

Buckyman

1364 Posts

August 04 2015 22:06 GMT

#3968

On Gyro(Lane), the pros at TI5 all seem to use a Sange&Yasha core, mostly with Drums and without HotD.

Personally I don't like Drums with S&Y; at lower pub farm rates it delays BKB too much. But straight S&Y feels quite strong.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

August 04 2015 22:20 GMT

#3969

On August 05 2015 07:06 BluemoonSC wrote:
torte, i think your SF build needs its first 2 pts switched around.

raze @ lvl 1 and necromastery @ lvl 2

oh and blink dagger for situational. i think your core items need some work too.

Raze vs. Necromastery is situational. At high level you will get punished in some matchups for going Necro first, but its also important to learn to abuse Necro first in matchups where you can get away with it.

BluemoonSC

SoCal8933 Posts

August 04 2015 22:47 GMT

#3970

On August 05 2015 07:20 TheYango wrote:

Show nested quote +

with his itemization early, he has zero dmg to farm the rushed bottle in his guide.

you're gonna want the raze if you only get 2 iron branches

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

August 04 2015 23:08 GMT

#3971

I mean, the starting items are wrong either way.

If you're going to skimp on stats, then you need to skimp on regen too. The whole point of starting only 2 branches is banking as much gold as possible to rush Bottle. If you're starting a full regen set, you're defeating the purpose of skimping on stats. At most you should be buying one set of Tangos with that, and only if your teammates won't pool you Tangos.

SF starting items are very sensitive to how hard you expect your lane to be, just like the skill order. The closest you're going to come to having an "all-rounder" starting item choice, it's going to be either Tango + Salve + 4 Branch, or Tango + Salve + Circlet + 2 Branch.

2 Branch + Tango (pooled or not) is at one end of the spectrum, while Wraith+Tango is at the other. 2 Branch + Tango + Salve is just weird and I can't think of a situation where I'd start with that. Adjust the starting items, then choose the appropriate skill order (if you're going to use 2 branch Bottle rush, then yes, you should start with Raze, but with different item starts it can go either way).

BluemoonSC

SoCal8933 Posts

August 05 2015 02:04 GMT

#3972

On August 05 2015 08:08 TheYango wrote:
I mean, the starting items are wrong either way.

If you're going to skimp on stats, then you need to skimp on regen too. The whole point of starting only 2 branches is banking as much gold as possible to rush Bottle. If you're starting a full regen set, you're defeating the purpose of skimping on stats. At most you should be buying one set of Tangos with that, and only if your teammates won't pool you Tangos.

SF starting items are very sensitive to how hard you expect your lane to be, just like the skill order. The closest you're going to come to having an "all-rounder" starting item choice, it's going to be either Tango + Salve + 4 Branch, or Tango + Salve + Circlet + 2 Branch.

2 Branch + Tango (pooled or not) is at one end of the spectrum, while Wraith+Tango is at the other. 2 Branch + Tango + Salve is just weird and I can't think of a situation where I'd start with that. Adjust the starting items, then choose the appropriate skill order (if you're going to use 2 branch Bottle rush, then yes, you should start with Raze, but with different item starts it can go either way).

this is basically my thought. if you want the necromastery first, starting items should reflect that. if you want the bottle rush, the starting items should reflect that.

honestly in most pubs, i think you can probably get away with the bottle rush.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

August 05 2015 03:15 GMT

#3973

Bottle rush is the conservative route. You're not "getting away" with anything. Bottle rush is what you do when you're against a a hero you'll lose to and player you can't outskill and so you play for the stalemate.

That's actually generally true of other heroes as well. Bottle rush emerged to bottle-crow stalemate against stronger laners. It's the most conservative sacrificial play possible, not the greedy one.

Tango+Salve + 4 Branch/2 Branch + Circlet is the all-rounder play because you bank enough gold that you can get to Bottle with razes if the lane turns out to be bad, but also have enough stats and regen to punish if the enemy laner turns out to be weaker.

Torte de Lini

Germany38463 Posts

August 05 2015 05:39 GMT

#3974

I'll take a look at some changes today, hopefully the guides aren't bugged and prevent saving.

edit: seems to be working. Going to systematically work through the entire list for big rehauls.
edit: will be back later to keep going through the list.

Torte de Lini

Germany38463 Posts

August 05 2015 05:57 GMT

#3975

eed

Torte de Lini

Germany38463 Posts

August 05 2015 08:17 GMT

#3976

On August 05 2015 07:06 Buckyman wrote:
On Gyro(Lane), the pros at TI5 all seem to use a Sange&Yasha core, mostly with Drums and without HotD.

Personally I don't like Drums with S&Y; at lower pub farm rates it delays BKB too much. But straight S&Y feels quite strong.

HOTD is more straight-forward of a build; TI5 Gyro players are very active.
I'll add Sange & Yasha to Situational Items

ahswtini

Northern Ireland22213 Posts

August 05 2015 09:32 GMT

#3977

i dont think mkb should be extension on am, should be a situational item as u generally prefer to get abyssal over it. also unsure about bkb being in core, again i think it should be situational as am doesnt really want to get it if he can avoid it

and you should keep quelling blade in the 'early game' tab, even tho its included in battlefury, im worried ppl will think its the last item to buy

Torte de Lini

Germany38463 Posts

August 05 2015 09:37 GMT

#3978

On August 05 2015 18:32 ahswtini wrote:
i dont think mkb should be extension on am, should be a situational item as u generally prefer to get abyssal over it. also unsure about bkb being in core, again i think it should be situational as am doesnt really want to get it if he can avoid it

and you should keep quelling blade in the 'early game' tab, even tho its included in battlefury, im worried ppl will think its the last item to buy

We're shifting situational items that are bought, typically, after Core Items, into Extension Items. The written note should detail that it's to be bought typically only for evasive carries.

This is on top of moving Moon Shard away from Situational Items as well.

We're essentially better outlining situational items as well as freeing up Extension Items, something I would do, but never followed through.

I will add Quelling Blade back.

ahswtini

Northern Ireland22213 Posts

August 05 2015 09:41 GMT

#3979

re: dazzle, i strongly disagree with leaving grave at lvl 1 for so long. while the duration doesnt scale, the increased cast range with each level is actually huge

Torte de Lini

Germany38463 Posts

August 05 2015 09:47 GMT

#3980

On August 05 2015 18:41 ahswtini wrote:
re: dazzle, i strongly disagree with leaving grave at lvl 1 for so long. while the duration doesnt scale, the increased cast range with each level is actually huge

Yeah, that's the reason I changed the skill build. Everyone is skipping poison touch and opting for max Q/W. However, I'm not comfortable removing altogether.

If there's enough agreement to just opt out of Q, then I'll do it. I was on the fence.