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SoCal8910 Posts
On July 29 2015 19:53 ahswtini wrote:
why is manta on viper an extension??
illusions dont benefit from nethertoxin, ranged manta is generally shit anyway. if ur going aghs route, its taxing on ur mana and will limit how many viper strikes u can cast in a fight. especially if u have mek too. yasha is good and sny is the superior extension to that. manta has its uses for dispelling shit, but there is nothing inherently in viper's skillset that makes him good with manta.
i also recommend replacing heart with skadi in extension, adding ac to situational, having sny as extension and manta as situational
i think unless youre getting a manta style/illusion based, at this point many people would agree that skadi is superior to heart in most cases, yeah?
although i think skadi is better on PL than heart.
what do you think?
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
even illusion heroes shud get skadi cuz they can make use of the agi stats as well as the str. i dont think heart is good on any heroes except for str now. i buy skadi on naga. i definitely buy skadi on pl. arguably skadi doesnt even replace heart, its satanic that replaces heart, since diffusal now stacks with lifesteal.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 29 2015 19:53 ahswtini wrote:
why is manta on viper an extension??
illusions dont benefit from nethertoxin, ranged manta is generally shit anyway. if ur going aghs route, its taxing on ur mana and will limit how many viper strikes u can cast in a fight. especially if u have mek too. yasha is good and sny is the superior extension to that. manta has its uses for dispelling shit, but there is nothing inherently in viper's skillset that makes him good with manta.
As with Manta on any other Agi hero, it's a tool to break high ground.
In all other cases you'd get S&Y, AC, or BFly.
On July 29 2015 19:53 ahswtini wrote:
i also recommend replacing heart with skadi in extension, adding ac to situational, having sny as extension and manta as situational
Heart and Skadi don't do the same thing. You can add Skadi (I'm not a huge fan of it because you don't need the mana, and it doesn't really do anything that Viper wants, but there are games for it), but Heart is still a valid option because it's really the only feasible lategame survivability/sustainability item because Viper doesn't use Lifesteal well.
On July 30 2015 00:59 ahswtini wrote:
even illusion heroes shud get skadi cuz they can make use of the agi stats as well as the str. i dont think heart is good on any heroes except for str now. i buy skadi on naga. i definitely buy skadi on pl. arguably skadi doesnt even replace heart, its satanic that replaces heart, since diffusal now stacks with lifesteal.
Melee Heart regen still outperforms Satanic in situations that favor sustainability (e.g. sieges).
Also, Deso heroes (e.g. Weaver) still have to deal with the orb issues since Deso stacks with neither Skadi nor Lifesteal still, so Heart is still reasonable there.
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Didn't want to put BKB in Extension and I felt Manta offered better to Viper (dispel, high-ground, Yasha movement speed) than BKB.
I also felt S&Y would be too late when you can go for bigger items for stats. Is that a misunderstaning of S&Y?
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United States47024 Posts
You buy BKB almost every game, you buy Manta in rare games where you actualy need it to go high ground.
S&Y at 3rd item is fine, other heroes get it around that time a bunch of the time (e.g. Meka->BKB->S&Y on SF).
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SoCal8910 Posts
On July 30 2015 03:04 Torte de Lini wrote:
Didn't want to put BKB in Extension and I felt Manta offered better to Viper (dispel, high-ground, Yasha movement speed) than BKB.
I also felt S&Y would be too late when you can go for bigger items for stats. Is that a misunderstaning of S&Y?
you cant use manta if you get chain stunned, though. there are less situations where dispel is more useful than bkb
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United States47024 Posts
Manta is also not the only item in the game that can self-dispel.
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Self-dispel is just in addition. The movement speed is mostly the biggest reason.
We can swap BKB and Manta and slide S and Y to Extension with it, though I feel it's starting to get crowded.
To reiterate:
Situational: Urn, Drums, Manta
Extension: S&Y, BKB, MKB, Heart, Butterfly
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Real question: is there any core hero in dota that doesn’t have BKB a situational/Extension item?
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On July 30 2015 04:14 Plansix wrote:
Real question: is there any core hero in dota that doesn’t have BKB a situational/Extension item?
Off-hand, not in these guides. It's one of the items I put a lot of emphasis on alongside Magic Wand because it's overlooked too many times and I want to promote tendencies that lean on the safe side.
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United States47024 Posts
If the movement speed is the biggest reason, S&Y gives more of it.
Really, though, the dispel from Manta isn't a big deal. 90% of the heroes that want Manta's Dispel are heroes that live and die by their skills and get fucked by Silences. Viper's effectiveness really is not so heavily impacted by his skills as to make him a desirable target for single-target silences like Orchid or Ancient Seal. You're a tanky frontliner, more akin to someone like DK, not a squishy mobility-focused carry like AM or Ember.
Core really should just be Treads Mek Agha BKB (Agha BKB order doesn't matter it depends on game)--and that's IT. Extension should be S&Y AC BFly. Situational should be Blink Heart Manta Lothar/Silver Halberd Crit, and some other stuff I'm forgetting.
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SoCal8910 Posts
honestly though, i can think of several of my own games off the top of my head where i said to myself "i can just skip bkb itll be fine" and it wound up not being fine.
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On July 30 2015 06:20 BluemoonSC wrote:
honestly though, i can think of several of my own games off the top of my head where i said to myself "i can just skip bkb itll be fine" and it wound up not being fine.
for me its like "ok put bkb into quickbuy"
win big fight
"ok puts some other big item into quickbuy"
die
"ok put bkb into quickbuy"
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July 31st is the next stats update, so I will be wrapping the updates from this conversation and tomorrow evening are to wrap up the final intended changes listed on the last page.
Expecting 89 million, hoping for 90 million
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SoCal8910 Posts
On July 30 2015 06:22 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2015 06:20 BluemoonSC wrote:
honestly though, i can think of several of my own games off the top of my head where i said to myself "i can just skip bkb itll be fine" and it wound up not being fine. for me its like "ok put bkb into quickbuy" win big fight "ok puts some other big item into quickbuy" die "ok put bkb into quickbuy"
yeahhhhh thats a familiar feel..you think "oh i won a fight without bkb, clearly i dont need it" then the very next fight you get every single spell targetted on you 
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Viper gets a bit of unique extra value from Manta because the illusions apply a decent slow when they get caught in an AoE. But that's certainly not enough to make it Core.
Also, I would never go Shadow Blade on Viper unless I intended to go all the way to Silver Edge.
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On July 30 2015 12:25 Buckyman wrote:
Viper gets a bit of unique extra value from Manta because the illusions apply a decent slow when they get caught in an AoE. But that's certainly not enough to make it Core.
Also, I would never go Shadow Blade on Viper unless I intended to go all the way to Silver Edge.
It's currently in extension
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On July 30 2015 04:14 Plansix wrote:
Real question: is there any core hero in dota that doesn’t have BKB a situational/Extension item?
No, Warlock would be the closest thing I'd think.
Actually that's not right. Meepo would be a no or very very close to it.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eCtBcvW.png)
lol
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EPT
