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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 196

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ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
July 28 2015 13:25 GMT
#3901
dont make me write a big blog about it
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-28 13:37:47
July 28 2015 13:36 GMT
#3902
On July 28 2015 22:14 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2015 21:55 ahswtini wrote:
how many ppl have to tell u that bfury is not core before u will listen?? every dumbass pub pa that goes bfury first is on u now. how much time do u waste buying bfury first, which gives enemy supports more time to buy ghosts/forces/glimmers, and enemy cores more time to buy bkb/mkb

and how is maxing dagger a mana issue? theres actually no reason not to max dagger


No reason to get angry or frustrated. Both builds are there and when I get to play them, I will make the necessary change. Telling me the ramifications doesn't change anything.

Previously the dagger was maxed and then we switched it to maxing blur.

I am going to have to echo his statement. BF on PA is an option, but there needs to be two builds. Everyone I play with goes Aquila into Helm into BF. That BF could just be a basher or BKB depending on the game. More importantly, that is unlimited time for the enemy team to get an MKB and then PA is garbo.

You either need two guides or something similar to the “pick one” option for LC.

Also, end the reign of Jungle Life Stealer. The blight has gone on long enough.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-28 13:49:10
July 28 2015 13:45 GMT
#3903
On July 28 2015 22:25 ahswtini wrote:
dont make me write a big blog about it


I would prefer you just not talk to me in that way.

To note:
  • Valve only let's you write a small bit of words on every item and ability. So I cannot write all possibilities of an item nor can I offer alternate builds depending on the lane. Anything that requires me to get into great detail of its importance or start splitting situations in the small descriptions I cannot do. Also remember who the audience is and what can pass as acceptable despite it sucking in the higher leagues.

  • I cannot detail the importance of certain levels depending on certain lanes as that really opens up a lot of possibilities and ideas.

  • There is no way to subscribe to all guides collectively, I already suggested it to Valve and it isn't a priority currently. You can subscribe to guides via the links below and they will appear subscribed in-game as well automatically.

  • I do not know all the answers or how to build each hero perfectly. Please be patient and understanding with me.


First page, hasn't changed since February, 2013.

Bottom-line is that I don't make decisions under that kind of attempted pressured and I don't do a change unless I understand it as well. I do this on top of the other parts of my life; so it takes time and patience.

I want to play PA first before making the change (both skill build + without HOTD). Remember that I proposed the change from the start several weeks ago, so following-through is also a part of the process.

I also need to go back and read what was the reasoning we maxed Blur then (as well as re-test the Blink Dagger change).
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
July 28 2015 14:25 GMT
#3904
i like hotd cuz it lets u jungle and stay at full health ready to tp and fight whenever. i try and find a wildwing and stack a hard camp then farm it with the help of tornado, or stack and farm ancients if u did go bfury route.

max blur was probs to let u trade hits with the offlaner. and often with a support assist, u only need one blink strike to kill. that was also the era of many juggs and trolls.

and i will talk with u however i want, deal with it.
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
July 28 2015 14:43 GMT
#3905
On July 28 2015 23:25 ahswtini wrote:
i like hotd cuz it lets u jungle and stay at full health ready to tp and fight whenever. i try and find a wildwing and stack a hard camp then farm it with the help of tornado, or stack and farm ancients if u did go bfury route.

max blur was probs to let u trade hits with the offlaner. and often with a support assist, u only need one blink strike to kill. that was also the era of many juggs and trolls.

and i will talk with u however i want, deal with it.


I respond to those who are civil and helpful without unwarranted antagonism, whether in jest or not. Talk how you want, the behavior will be met (if any) with equal liberty.

I believe we maxed Blur before because of 6.83, which is what was mentioned here correctly. Troll/Sniper are no longer the meta and that was what was said here now, just needed to confirm it by reviewing post history.

u only need one blink strike to kill. that was also the era of many juggs and trolls.


Right.

Now, when I was playing Battlefury PA, I felt that it was not worth it in value and wanted to seek an alternative. The alternative is there, elmininating Battlefury is another step that I need to consider, I understand the redundancy however.

End of today, I will apply the necessary changes.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
July 28 2015 14:46 GMT
#3906
ask urself this

why do u need bfury??

why do u not build bfury on the majority of other melee carries???
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-28 17:42:25
July 28 2015 15:38 GMT
#3907
Viper
New Skill Build: Q W Q E E R E E W W R W Q Q (1. Corrosive Skin 2. Nethertoxin 3. Poison Attack)
Added Black King Bar to Situational Items
Added Manta Style to Extension Items
Removed Glimmer Cape

Nature's Prophet
Added Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Moved Shadow Blade to Core - Pusher
Moved Orchid of Malevolence to Extension Items
Removed Glimmer Cape
Removed Moon Shard

Pugna
Added Guardian Greaves to Core - Pusher

Phantom Assassin
Created New Tab: "Core - Mid-Game"
Added Helm of the Dominator to "Core - Mid-Game"
Added Black King Bar to "Core - Mid-Game"
Added Skull Basher to "Core - Mid-Game"
Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items
Added Assault Cuirass to Extension Items
Moved Butterfly to Situational Items
Moved Monkey King Bar to Extension Items

Leshrac (Middle)
Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items
Removed Tranquil Boots

Silencer (Lane)
Moved Rod of Atos to Core Items
Moved Mekansm to Situational Items

Silencer (Middle)
Moved Force Staff to Extension Items
Moved Rod of Atos to Extension Items

Lina (Middle)
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Core Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Moved Boots of Travel to Extension Items

Lina (Lane)
Moved Black King Bar to Situational Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Extension Items
Moved Boots of Travel to Extension Items
Moved Octarine Core to Luxury Items
Moved Scythe of Vyse to Luxury Items
Removed Mjollnir
Removed Eye of Skadi

Winter Wyvern
New Skill Build: Q W W E W R W Q Q Q R E E E R (1. Splinter Blast 2. Arctic Burn 3. Cold Embrace)
Moved Force Staff to Situational Items
moved soul ring after boots of speed
Moved Magic Wand to Core Items after tranquil boots

Queen of Pain
Added Assault Cuirass to Extension Items
Moved Magic Wand to Core Items
Removed Ghost Secepter
Removed Mjollnir

Brewmaster (Lane)
Brewmaster (Middle)
Removed Moon Shard

Clockwerk
Added Bottle to Early Game
Added Solar Crest to Extension Items
Moved Heaven's Halberd to Situational Items



To-Do
Test Phantom Assassin
Revise Silver Edge on builds
Revise Queen of Pain (incl. right-click luxury items?)
Consider Moon Shard as additional Luxury (+ Boots of Travel) or Extension.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-28 15:41:26
July 28 2015 15:40 GMT
#3908
BF's situational, period. There's no reason for BF to need a separate build, because the decision to buy a BF doesn't in and of itself warp all your subsequent item choices. You either get a BF or you don't.

The choice to get BF doesn't in and of itself change the nature of the hero. It's a farming item for farming games, and you're still going to get BKB/Basher/Lifesteal regardless. Those are the actual "core" items, and the decision to get BF is a farming decision the same way choosing to get a Midas isn't a totally different build, but a farming decision.

Hell, there are even games that could call for a late BF after BKB.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
July 28 2015 16:13 GMT
#3909
Good point.

In regards to Queen of Pain, I'm unsure if the guide wants Aghs as Core and Orchid as Extension or vice-versa? I'm a bit torn as Orchid has its viability against key popular mids, but Aghs is just so good.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
July 28 2015 18:54 GMT
#3910
On July 29 2015 01:13 Torte de Lini wrote:
Good point.

In regards to Queen of Pain, I'm unsure if the guide wants Aghs as Core and Orchid as Extension or vice-versa? I'm a bit torn as Orchid has its viability against key popular mids, but Aghs is just so good.


lol im glad we got yango in here to echo what we've been saying before you acknowledge what we've been saying about BF all along :/

RE: QOP..the decision to go orchid hinges on how good your farm is. are you going to get it soon enough where it will make an impact? if not, skip it to go agha. ultimately, the orchid agha + scream combo will annihilate a support under most circumstances so i'd say just leave it as is.

im not sure how you want to have that reflect in your guides though.

personally, as others suggested, i would have two builds in there. core caster and core right click.
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-28 20:08:30
July 28 2015 20:08 GMT
#3911
On July 29 2015 03:54 BluemoonSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2015 01:13 Torte de Lini wrote:
Good point.

In regards to Queen of Pain, I'm unsure if the guide wants Aghs as Core and Orchid as Extension or vice-versa? I'm a bit torn as Orchid has its viability against key popular mids, but Aghs is just so good.


lol im glad we got yango in here to echo what we've been saying before you acknowledge what we've been saying about BF all along :/

RE: QOP..the decision to go orchid hinges on how good your farm is. are you going to get it soon enough where it will make an impact? if not, skip it to go agha. ultimately, the orchid agha + scream combo will annihilate a support under most circumstances so i'd say just leave it as is.

im not sure how you want to have that reflect in your guides though.

personally, as others suggested, i would have two builds in there. core caster and core right click.


The argument was acknowledged before Yango's input, but I wanted to follow-up with my own experiences before making the necessary change (end of today/tomorrow).

As for QOP: I don't know if a dual-build is really necessary if we really just want people to know and comfortably play QOP. This feels more like a decision on which direction we want to build QOP rather than offering two completely different ways of playing (I feel right-click QOP is a bit more demanding to play).

Wouldn't it be acceptable to do:

Extension Items: Aghs, AC, Refresher, Scythe
Luxury: Boots of Travel, Skadi, Octarine.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
July 28 2015 22:57 GMT
#3912
[image loading]

1 million unique for Earthshaker
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
July 28 2015 23:33 GMT
#3913
On July 29 2015 03:54 BluemoonSC wrote:
RE: QOP..the decision to go orchid hinges on how good your farm is. are you going to get it soon enough where it will make an impact? if not, skip it to go agha. ultimately, the orchid agha + scream combo will annihilate a support under most circumstances so i'd say just leave it as is.

I'd say it depends a lot more on the heroes in the game--who you can and can't solo-kill with an Orchid (or whether that's even feasible with your game plan), and how likely you are to need to make the lategame DPS transition.

QoP's just a bad hero to make cookie-cutter guide for, but if you have to pick one, either is fine.
Moderator
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
July 29 2015 01:15 GMT
#3914
On July 29 2015 08:33 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 29 2015 03:54 BluemoonSC wrote:
RE: QOP..the decision to go orchid hinges on how good your farm is. are you going to get it soon enough where it will make an impact? if not, skip it to go agha. ultimately, the orchid agha + scream combo will annihilate a support under most circumstances so i'd say just leave it as is.

I'd say it depends a lot more on the heroes in the game--who you can and can't solo-kill with an Orchid (or whether that's even feasible with your game plan), and how likely you are to need to make the lategame DPS transition.

QoP's just a bad hero to make cookie-cutter guide for, but if you have to pick one, either is fine.


thats sorta what i meant by "will it make an impact"
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-29 01:51:36
July 29 2015 01:50 GMT
#3915
can u PLEASE take aghs off es guide ty
its only good vs like 2 heroes in all of dota
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
July 29 2015 03:30 GMT
#3916
ES Agha only became a thing cuz of Lanm getting Agha+Refresh in DK games last year where they were stupidly ahead anyway.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
July 29 2015 07:54 GMT
#3917
On July 29 2015 10:50 Sn0_Man wrote:
can u PLEASE take aghs off es guide ty
its only good vs like 2 heroes in all of dota


Didn't know this, I will fix today with PA
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-29 08:41:36
July 29 2015 08:41 GMT
#3918
Nevermind,

[image loading]

Fucking Earthshaker build is bugged, can't even reach the fucking save button. Doesn't load my ability build or anything.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-30 14:52:03
July 29 2015 08:44 GMT
#3919
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-29 11:08:07
July 29 2015 10:53 GMT
#3920
why is manta on viper an extension??

illusions dont benefit from nethertoxin, ranged manta is generally shit anyway. if ur going aghs route, its taxing on ur mana and will limit how many viper strikes u can cast in a fight. especially if u have mek too. yasha is good and sny is the superior extension to that. manta has its uses for dispelling shit, but there is nothing inherently in viper's skillset that makes him good with manta.

i also recommend replacing heart with skadi in extension, adding ac to situational, having sny as extension and manta as situational
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
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